Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives


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Catherine may have still been queen in Rome, and even in heaven but as David Starkey said, unfortunately for her, she was living in England.

Henry needed absolutely irrefutable proof of the worst possible misdeeds to rid himself of Anne, as he never wanted to admit mistakes. So Cromwell made it happen, imo. Then no one could blame him, and he would even get sympathy (in his mind.) Wonder what he would have come up with Jane had given birth to a girl and then no more children...
 
Anne of Cleves's coronation as queen had been set for February 1540. King Henry VIII called it off without giving a reason. Was he not required to give a reason? :queen3::queen3::queen3:
 
Anne of Cleves's coronation as queen had been set for February 1540. King Henry VIII called it off without giving a reason. Was he not required to give a reason? :queen3::queen3::queen3:

Why would he be required to give a reason, He was king....
 
I read “Young, Damned and Fair” by Gareth Russell this week, a full bio on Catherine Howard. She was a silly girl, but also a bit calculating there at the end, when she told Cranmer that Dereham had raped her all those times. The author does not buy into Catherine as a victim of sexual abuse in her youth, partly I think because her age at the time was not far off marrying age for women then, so it is not really comparable. Also, with Culpepper she seemed to go after him as much as vice versa. Still...if anything, besides not being too smart, she sure was not well advised or well handled by her trove of relations. All she needed to do was play the good wife for a few years...in any case, less than ten at most, though it would have turned out to be even sooner, and she would have been rewarded as Katherine Parr was as far as estates, pensions, freedom, etc. and she still would have been barely 25 or so.

But what a tragedy it all was. The worst part (besides being executed) is that she had to wait around for death for 13 weeks, while Anne had less than 3 weeks, from start to finish.
 
I read “Young, Damned and Fair” by Gareth Russell this week, a full bio on Catherine Howard. She was a silly girl, but also a bit calculating there at the end, when she told Cranmer that Dereham had raped her all those times. The author does not buy into Catherine as a victim of sexual abuse in her youth, partly I think because her age at the time was not far off marrying age for women then, so it is not really comparable. Also, with Culpepper she seemed to go after him as much as vice versa. Still...if anything, besides not being too smart, she sure was not well advised or well handled by her trove of relations. All she needed to do was play the good wife for a few years...in any case, less than ten at most, though it would have turned out to be even sooner, and she would have been rewarded as Katherine Parr was as far as estates, pensions, freedom, etc. and she still would have been barely 25 or so.

But what a tragedy it all was. The worst part (besides being executed) is that she had to wait around for death for 13 weeks, while Anne had less than 3 weeks, from start to finish.

She was extremely stupid, and had indeed been badly trained (or rather neglected) by her relatives. but her behaviour was her own, not her relatives. She should have known that an affair with one of H's favoured young courtiers was NOT ON. True that if she had stayed faithful and well behaved for a few years, she would have been a wealthy widowed queen and could probably have married someone she really loved or at least a younger more compatible partner...
 
The Tombs/Plaques of Henry's wives

Catherine of Aragon in Peterborough Cathedral

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...PG/320px-Peterborough_Katherine_of_Aragon.JPG

Plaque of Anne Boleyn at Church of Saint Peter ad Vincula

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tomb_of_Anne_Boleyn.jpg

Jane Seymour,St George's Chapel in Windsor

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombe...nghilterra#/media/File:Tomb_of_Henry_VIII.jpg

Anne of Cleves in Westminster Abbey

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClDxY1mWEAA4D03.jpg

Catherine Howards plaque,Church of Saint Peter ad Vincula

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombe...terra#/media/File:Catherine_Howard's_Tomb.jpg


The tomb of Catherine Parr, St Mary's Chapel in Sudeley Castle.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_St_Mary's_Chapel,_Sudeley_Castle_(5058).jpg
 
In some of his love letters to Anne Boleyn, King Henry VIII referred to himself as Anne's servant. When she responded that she should actually be considered Henry's servant, this delighted Henry.
 
DNA results taken from 10 skeletons found on board Henry VIII's flagship the Mary Rose were analysed by team at Cardiff and Portsmouth universities and its discovered that the crew 'was from Mediterranean and North Africa'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47572089
 
This is fascinating stuff, especially showing a varied and multicultural English population. And also the archers becoming sailors; multi-tasking, retired from the army of the time or maybe there on board ship to repel enemy boarders?
 
This is fascinating stuff, especially showing a varied and multicultural English population. And also the archers becoming sailors; multi-tasking, retired from the army of the time or maybe there on board ship to repel enemy boarders?

Archers have been common on war ships since ancient times. The Greeks and Romans would have them on board. There are naval records of battles, like Henry V, with archers as well. By the time of the battle of the Spanish armada, during the reign of Elizabeth, archers were declining in naval battle and land. They were often on the upper deck, and yes were useful in taking out enemies in battle that came on board.
 
Catherine of Aragon cont..

Avalon, sorry to insist again and but I read in a quite reliable book about the history of Church law that pope Julius II. did not send a proper dispensation because the French had bribed him in order to make sure the marriage between Henry (later Henry VIII.) and Catherine of Aragon would not be valid. When king Henry VII., Catherine's father in law, realized that, he did not allow his son Henry (later Henry VIII.) to marry Catherine out of the fear that God might be against the marriage.

When Henry VIII. became king aged 18, he married Catherine. After numerous stillborn children with only a girl, Mary Tudor, as surviving child, Henry VIII. became superstitious and asked for an annulment. Normally this would have been granted without any problems. But there was the problem with German emperor Charles V., Catherine's nephew through his mother, Joana of Aragon and Castile the heir of Spain and through his father Philipp of Habsburg's inheritance the most powerful lord in Germany and thus elected Holy Roman emperor . Charles V. had marched into Rome and taken the successor of Julius II, pope Clemens VII. prisoner and forced him to reject Henry's request.

So according to this rather scientific book about Church law, Henry VIII. was right to feel that spiritually his marriage was invalid (according to Catholic law) and that Julius II. had tricked them. The emperor insisted on the other hand that there had been no reason for a dispensation in the first place as the marriage between Catherine and prince Arthur had not been consumated according to Catherine. Thus it hadn't been valid and there had been no need for a dispensation for the new marriage. Henry at first had believed that, too (thus he was very slow in enforcing the issue) but when he realized that there wouldn't be an heir he spiritually started believing in the invalidity of his marriage- he saw their childlessness as sign of God according to the words in the bible, that a marriage between a man and his brother's wife should remain childless. Catherine argued that they had a child - Mary - but she could not shake Henry's belief that God had sent a sign to him. So he proceeded.

When he could not get justice from the Vatican due to the emperor's insistence on the marriage, he split from Rome but did not change the system of the church. That was done during the minority of his son Edward as king by Edward's guardians who favoured the reformation.

Sorry to go into details but I think it's interesting in view of the discussion about divorces and the Church of England that Henry VIII. never wanted a divorce as he was a spiritual man and believed in God. If he had accepted divorce, maybe Anna Boleyn and her cousine Catherine Howard had lived a little bit longer.... :flowers:

HOWEVER! King Henry VII briefly considered marrying Catherine himself, so he must not have been terribly concerned about God being against her marrying a relative of her former husband, Prince Arthur! I think the consciences of these monarchs were flexible things, not that they were insincere, but I think that they measured their consciences against political gain quite often, and would choose the worldly benefits over religious propriety at times. Henry VIII was certainly conflicted in this way several times during his life with regard to his marriages. I think he honestly believed that God was disallowing him to produce a son, but I don't think he had a rock solid understanding as to why. He convinced himself that it was due to his marriage to Catherine (though he knew she had been a virgin on their wedding night) in part because he was desperate for an heir and in part because he wanted Anne. By that time, his conviction that God was displeased was only a side issue, in my opinion, though he certainly continued to maintain that it was true. Very complex, these men of power!
 
When he was still Prince Henry, he was steered toward a church career. How much theology did he study?
 
When he was still Prince Henry, he was steered toward a church career. How much theology did he study?
Records show he was given a very broad education, which included the study of theology and philosophy. I would think he was well educated on Catholic theology as he wrote Assertio Septem Sacramentorum (Defense of the Seven Sacraments, possibly with Thomas More) and was given the title "Defender of the Faith".
 
His paternal grandmother the Countess of Richmond and Derby was a pretty devout lady and possibly had an early influence on religiosity.
 
His paternal grandmother the Countess of Richmond and Derby was a pretty devout lady and possibly had an early influence on religiosity.
I love calling her "My Lady, The King's Mother"! :)


She was also very well educated, for a woman of her day, and endowed colleges, hospitals. She endowed several colleges (including Christ College and St. John's at Cambridge), translated works into English and was known for her generosity. She even left a substantial sum in her will to various educational institutions that she supported.


Interestingly, many of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation in England attended St. John's--Asham, Cecil, and Cheke.
 
An Ard Ri, Catherine of Aragon is by far my favorite of the six wives and the one I feel the most admiration for. A noble, intelligent, courageous woman who might have benefited from being a little LESS principled.

I admire Anne Boleyn's courage and dignity. Particularly at the end when it all went horribly wrong...but her behavior on her ascent and as queen was just too spiteful, too venal for whole hearted admiration.

Catherine Howard has my pity. I recently completed Gareth Russell's "Young, Damned and Fair". Yes she was silly, not very bright and a little conceited. But she was very young and lacked adequate guidance for most of her brief life.

She did not deserve her fate.
 
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Katherine of Aragon was also his longest serving queen (11 June 1509 – 23 May 1533) just under 24 years.
 
Just eleven days after the execution of Queen Anne Boleyn, King Henry VIII married Jane Seymour on May 30, 1536.

Did the will of King Henry VIII debar the English throne from going to a foreigner?
 
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Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.

As generations of school children have had to intone:lol:
 
Divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.

As generations of school children have had to intone:lol:


That's how I was taught,though my teaching nuns had a preference for Katherine of Aragon ;)
 
That's how I was taught,though my teaching nuns had a preference for Katherine of Aragon ;)

And quite right too! She was a remarkable woman from a remarkable family.

Shamelessly treated by her husband of course.
 
That's how I was taught,though my teaching nuns had a preference for Katherine of Aragon ;)



I’m not catholic, but my preference has always been Katherine of Aragon too.

While I don’t think Anne Boleyn deserved to die, I don’t think I ever read anything really likable or admirable about her character.
 
Not a Catholic either but have also always favoured Catherine of Aragon. I like Anne of Cleves too - I feel like she's an underrated wife of Henry VIII.
 
Not a Catholic either but have also always favoured Catherine of Aragon. I like Anne of Cleves too - I feel like she's an underrated wife of Henry VIII.

Yes I agree, she is intriguing I think, her fate was an unusual one. I find Catherine Parr even more engrossing. Her life after Henry's death is also interesting if tragically short.
 
Not a Catholic either but have also always favoured Catherine of Aragon. I like Anne of Cleves too - I feel like she's an underrated wife of Henry VIII.



Yes. From what little we know of her- she comes across as smart and practical. The marriage didn’t work at all, but she “made lemonade out of lemons.” She got what she could out of what was undoubtedly a humiliating and hurtful situation and seemed to have a comfortable, independent life.

In some ways, Katherine’s post-Henry life would have been easier if she’d been more accepting. But I do admire how she had her principals. (She frankly comes across as the polar opposite of Anne Boleyn- and that is not a favorable comment towards Anne.)
 
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