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  #661  
Old 01-16-2014, 05:49 PM
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With Anne, I think the need for a separation was fueled more by how unpopular the Boleyns were in court and the continued lack of a son than s simple desire for a "new wife." The Boleyns upset a lot of people in their rise to power, and in doing so ultimately sowed the seeds of their own destruction. Similarly, Catherine Howard courted disaster when she entered into the affair with Thomas Culpepper, knowing full well what had happened to her cousin, Anne.
That is interesting Ish. I agree that Anne, in particular, was very unpopular and had to go but I think she would have survived if she had borne a son. Her fate was sealed when Henry lost faith in her ability to bear a healthy son. If she had been more popular, perhaps Henry would have let her go to a nunnery, but I doubt it. He needed her dead to ensure that there would be no question of the legitimacy of future children with Jane Seymour.
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  #662  
Old 01-16-2014, 06:52 PM
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I think it is interesting that the marriage was annulled but she was convicted of adultery. If the marriage wasn't valid, then there can't be adultery. Weir's opinion is that Catherine may have saved her life if she had admitted to a precontract. (Catherine tried to convince Cranmer that Dereham raped her).

I disagree with Weir on that point. It's hard to believe that Henry would have annulled the marriage and let her go. What if she had gotten pregnant? It seems to me that she was guilty of treason whether the marriage was valid or not.

I don't mean to sound like I have no sympathy for her. I do. It's possible, even probable, that she was being careful not to get pregnant.

Some movies and books speculate that Henry was impotent and she seduced Culpepper hoping to bear a son. Again, it is hard to believe that Henry would have played along and accepted the child. Henry truly believed that he ruled by divine right and never would have pretended another man's child was his own, regardless of how embarrassing the truth was. I'm not sure what would have happened had she gotten pregnant with Culpepper's child, but I could see her suffering a convenient "accident."
I don't think Catherine Howard was going to save her life at all; her best bet was to try to spin the Dereham affair as being rape, but even then that was a risk (that obviously didn't pay off). Henry always seems like a jealous man to me, who had a temper and didn't really let things go easily. Once it had been clear that he'd been lied to Catherine's fate was sealed.

I think to, in the case of both CH and AB (gotta love a man who marries 6 women with 3 different first names) was that CA made it kind of clear that if a woman wasn't going to go quietly into an annulment then it was better to do away with her. CH's mistake may have simply been in fighting too much; the more she fought for her position, the more she reminded Henry of his first wife, who had caused so many problems by not simply submitting to his will...

Okay, so yeah, that does make him sound a bit piggish, but I still disagree with the overall idea that CA was purely the victim of her husband's sexist desires. She was, but she was also a victim of the time and a victim of her own desires.

I've never seen the suggestion that CH seduced Culpepper in order to produce a son for Henry, and I agree I can't see Henry having passed off another's son as his own. I have seen the suggestion that AB entered into her affairs to produce a son that would be passed of as Henry's, but I think that at the time she was also sleeping with Henry (however infrequently) making the deception a bit more believable. CH's affair, if it was sexual, seems to be more the result of a much younger wife straying from her far older husband's bed because he didn't do it for her. If she had gotten pregnant, then I think either an "accident" of some sort would have been arranged or else she would have slept with her husband in order to trick him into thinking it was his.

I think out of all of Henry's wives, the one I have the most sympathy for is actually Catherine Howard. She was too young, too uneducated, and in some ways too naive to really be able to be a more successful wife to him.
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  #663  
Old 01-16-2014, 07:02 PM
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That is interesting Ish. I agree that Anne, in particular, was very unpopular and had to go but I think she would have survived if she had borne a son. Her fate was sealed when Henry lost faith in her ability to bear a healthy son. If she had been more popular, perhaps Henry would have let her go to a nunnery, but I doubt it. He needed her dead to ensure that there would be no question of the legitimacy of future children with Jane Seymour.
I don't think Anne would have had to go at all if she'd borne a son. The duo of the two were her downfall, but I always feel that the way it played out was that Henry was disappointed by the lack of a son and then let people talk him into distrusting, and even hating her. Had she borne a son I don't think he would have listened to her opposition, and would even bet that some of those who continued to talk would have weakened their position. Afterall, given the propaganda around the marriage with Catherine of Aragon, the birth of a son would have been seen as God's blessing on the marriage. However, the birth of a daughter and the loss of the other pregnancies could have been seen as God's continued displeasure with Henry.

I think ultimately what signed Anne's death warrant, though, wasn't simply her unpopularity but rather the struggle CA had put up, and the fact that CA had died. I often think that had CA submitted to the annulment more willingly things would have been easier for both her and her daughter, and Henry may not have carried such a grudge about the idea of wives and ex-wives. As it was, because CA put up such a fight and worked towards souring the general opinion of AB, when Henry was looking to end things with wife number 2 he was all to well aware of how bad she could make things for wife number 3. Instead, with CA's death, and AB's execution, Henry made sure that there was no way anyone could oppose his marriage to Jane.

If we look at God's opposition to the marriages too, it's almost fitting that it was this third wife who produced his only legitimate son; the union wasn't "tainted" by any precontract or carnal knowledge of anyone's siblings this time, nor was it tainted by the fact that any of the participants were possibly married in God's eyes.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:07 PM
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I don't think Catherine Howard was going to save her life at all; her best bet was to try to spin the Dereham affair as being rape, but even then that was a risk (that obviously didn't pay off). Henry always seems like a jealous man to me, who had a temper and didn't really let things go easily. Once it had been clear that he'd been lied to Catherine's fate was sealed.
You are probably correct but as I look through Weir's book, she has a slightly different take. She indicates that Cranmer worked to keep Henry and Catherine Howard away from each other during his investigation because he was worried there would be a reconciliation. (page 457). Although I assume Cranmer knew Henry well, I agree with you that he was very jealous, insecure, and angry. If there had been a reconciliation, it would have just delayed the inevitable. Eventually, Henry would have become jealous and angry with her and would have come up with a reason to arrest and execute her, as he had with Anne Boleyn.

Again, Weir's take is interesting. She indicates that Henry was initially inclined to treat Catherine mercifully, but as Henry's illusion that he was still young and desirable crumbled, his anger at Catherine grew and he wanted her to suffer as he was suffering. (page 475)

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Okay, so yeah, that does make him sound a bit piggish, but I still disagree with the overall idea that CA was purely the victim of her husband's sexist desires. She was, but she was also a victim of the time and a victim of her own desires.
I agree that it is a mistake to try and impose our 21st century morals on people who lived more than 500 years ago. Henry was a ruthless tyrant in the days of ruthless tyrants. Men ruled and women were supposed to provide their heirs. The perception of him would have been very different if either Catherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn would have bore a surviving son.

If Catherine of Aragon had bore him a son, few people in our time (I'm speaking from an American point of view) would even know who he was because he never would have broken from the Roman Catholic Church. He would have been an unremarkable monarch. If Anne Boleyn had a surviving son, we would only know him for breaking with the Roman Catholic Church; we wouldn't remember him as brutal and cold blooded as he was. Beheading two of his wives is pretty shocking.

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I've never seen the suggestion that CH seduced Culpepper in order to produce a son for Henry, and I agree I can't see Henry having passed off another's son as his own.
I've seen this suggested a couple of times. The one I remember off hand, is the 1970's BBC miniseries, The Six Wives of Henry VIII, which showed the Duke of Norfolk counseling Catherine Howard to give Henry a son, even though the Duke knew that Henry was impotent.

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I have seen the suggestion that AB entered into her affairs to produce a son that would be passed of as Henry's, but I think that at the time she was also sleeping with Henry (however infrequently) making the deception a bit more believable.
I've seen this suggested too. I find it hard to believe that Anne Boleyn would have been that foolish. I've said before that I think she was innocent of the crimes for which she was charged, but I don't have much sympathy for her because she was so ruthless herself.

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CH's affair, if it was sexual, seems to be more the result of a much younger wife straying from her far older husband's bed because he didn't do it for her. If she had gotten pregnant, then I think either an "accident" of some sort would have been arranged or else she would have slept with her husband in order to trick him into thinking it was his.

I think out of all of Henry's wives, the one I have the most sympathy for is actually Catherine Howard. She was too young, too uneducated, and in some ways too naive to really be able to be a more successful wife to him.
I also feel sorriest for Catherine Howard. Not only was she young and uneducated, but she had no real guidance from her family--her reliance on Lady Rochford and the Duke of Norfolk was fatal. I see her as a careless teenager recklessly speeding down the road without thinking about possible consequences. I assume that she was intimate with Culpepper, but didn't engage in behavior that would have led to pregnancy. Either she didn't think she would be caught or she thought she could twist Henry around her little finger.
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  #665  
Old 01-16-2014, 09:30 PM
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Apologies to those who are bored with this discussion, but I was thumbing through Alison Weir's book, the Six Wives of Henry VIII, and apparently the marriage between Henry and Katherine Howard was not annulled (page 483). He was technically a widower after her execution.

I wonder why he didn't go through with the annulment since Cranmer found that there was a precontract.
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  #666  
Old 01-16-2014, 10:21 PM
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I agree that he wanted to be with Anne Boleyn but I don't think he would have ever considered marriage to her if he and Catherine of Aragon had a living son. It was more than just wanting a new wife, there is no doubt in my mind that he was absolutely convinced that he needed a legitimate male heir.
I agree with this. His lust for simply Anne added fuel to the fire, in a matter of speaking.

His desire for a new wife, combined with his very real concerns about his lack of a living male heir to succeed him, really sealed Katherine's(and Mary's) fate.
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  #667  
Old 01-19-2014, 02:30 AM
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Apologies to those who are bored with this discussion, but I was thumbing through Alison Weir's book, the Six Wives of Henry VIII, and apparently the marriage between Henry and Katherine Howard was not annulled (page 483). He was technically a widower after her execution.

I wonder why he didn't go through with the annulment since Cranmer found that there was a precontract.

I'm not certain, but might the precontract alone have served as enough to invalidate the marriage?

Dictionary.com defines precontract as "a preexisting contract that legally prevents a person from making another contract of the same nature."

It goes on to add that formerly it referred to a legally binding betrothal.

If you combine the two, is it possible that Catherine's precontract in itself made her marriage to Henry legally invalid? If that's true, then an annulment wouldn't have been necessary.
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  #668  
Old 01-19-2014, 07:38 AM
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The Face of The Six Wives of Henry VIII (Artistic Reconstruction)

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  #669  
Old 01-19-2014, 11:55 AM
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I'm not certain, but might the precontract alone have served as enough to invalidate the marriage?

Dictionary.com defines precontract as "a preexisting contract that legally prevents a person from making another contract of the same nature."

It goes on to add that formerly it referred to a legally binding betrothal.

If you combine the two, is it possible that Catherine's precontract in itself made her marriage to Henry legally invalid? If that's true, then an annulment wouldn't have been necessary.
That sounds reasonable. Alternatively, although Alison Weir has obviously done a lot of research, it is possible that there was an annulment and the actual documents no longer exist. Henry was pretty upset by Catherine Howard's actions, so I think most of the courtiers distanced themselves and didn't write a lot about the events going on at the time.
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:55 AM
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The Face of The Six Wives of Henry VIII (Artistic Reconstruction)

Beautiful. I am always amazed by how creative some people are. I loved the music.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:39 PM
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The Face of The Six Wives of Henry VIII (Artistic Reconstruction)

Wow!! These are stunning. I especially like the one of Katherine Howard for some reason. Maybe because there seems to be more warmth to it than the known portraits of Katherine I've seen. Regardless, they're all very well done. Thanks for sharing that w/us. :)
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  #672  
Old 01-20-2014, 06:34 PM
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These are always fun - but I have one teensy tiny nit to pick: Catherine of Aragon had a light complexion and red hair...
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Old 01-20-2014, 06:35 PM
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Yes they are indeed fun,not sure why Katherine of Aragon is nearly always depicted as having dark hair!
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:51 PM
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I think the reason Catherine is frequently portrayed darker in colouring is because she was Spanish and we have a stereotype of what Spanish women look like, and it's not light skinned red haired.
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Old 05-26-2014, 10:16 AM
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On the market for £1.1million, it is a beautiful stone barn conversion in its own right, boasting 4,000 sq ft of space and sitting in picturesque countryside.

But the property in the grounds of the 15th century Snape Castle also comes with quite a history - because the site was once home to Henry VIII's sixth wife Catherine Parr.

Current owners Emma and Steve Hagues redesigned the property in North Yorkshire after buying it as a derelict barn in 2006 with planning permission.
Stone barn conversion on grounds of 15th century Snape Castle where Catherine Parr once lived | Mail Online
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:06 PM
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Help me out. In reading and watching docs about the Tudors I keep seeing and hearing the term "jewels and plate". What is this plate? Is it what I think it is, a round dish? How is it valuable?
It's a little off topic but not really.
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  #677  
Old 05-26-2014, 01:26 PM
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Help me out. In reading and watching docs about the Tudors I keep seeing and hearing the term "jewels and plate". What is this plate? Is it what I think it is, a round dish? How is it valuable?
It's a little off topic but not really.
Gold and silverware- valuable and rare at the time.

Cant find a picture of Tudor examples but the modern equivalent is what we see at banquets

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...80_468x631.jpg
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  #678  
Old 05-27-2014, 09:07 AM
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They did a good job on it, and I think having the castle as a view would be great. I think I would sit out on the porch (what is the English word for it?) all day if I could look at it.

Though If I were the decorator it would be big cushy chairs and couches big tv and alot of bookshelves. :) Not fond of modern stuff but it was nice.
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:24 AM
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Really like the exterior,but the the interior decor is a bit too modern for my taste.
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  #680  
Old 06-27-2014, 03:51 AM
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WAs King Henry VIII cursed?

Hello , I was reading a short bio on Henry and I've noticed how so many miscarriages and only daughters .... it makes me believe that he somehow was cursed . What's your take on this ?

P's. If I have some grammar error's it's cuz on my phone and we all know how auto correct can be.
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