The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #621  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:45 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 4,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.
I often think about the six women Henry married, and I wonder which one of them truly and deeply loved him as a man.

#6 Katherine Parr was primarily nurse to an old, sick man...longing for Sir Thomas Seymour

#5 Catherine Howard...no. Just no.

#4 Anne of Cleves...eventually grew fond of her dear "Brother Henry"

#3 Jane Seymour..."Born to obey and serve"...but I don't sense any true love, much less passion for Henry

#2 Anne Boleyn was primarily driven by ambition and pride in her feelings for him, imo

#1 Katharine of Aragon. Everything I have read of her, especially her final, heartbreaking letter to him ("mine eyes desire you above all things") leads me to have the opinion that she was the only one Henry's queen's who truly loved and adored him right up to the end of her life. There is no doubt that Henry returned her love early in the marriage, but it was Anne Boleyn who was the great passion of his life, apparently.
__________________

__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
Reply With Quote
  #622  
Old 09-06-2013, 07:16 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

#1 Katharine of Aragon. Everything I have read of her, especially her final, heartbreaking letter to him ("mine eyes desire you above all things") leads me to have the opinion that she was the only one Henry's queen's who truly loved and adored him right up to the end of her life. There is no doubt that Henry returned her love early in the marriage, but it was Anne Boleyn who was the great passion of his life, apparently.
Perhaps the lucky one that got away is Catherine's lady in waiting Mary Boleyn.
She couldn't have been a choice for Henry to choose from as a future bride after his divorce to Catherine was a reality because she was also married. This kind of gives credence to the saying "Laying one's wife down for their country".

I think rather than being a great passionate love affair, Anne more or less was a challenge for Henry. She didn't give into him as easily as most women back then would have for their king. Henry had a very active libido and I'd not be surprised if that's how he looked at any woman wife or not. Part of me inclines to think that Henry married Catherine of Aragon only as what he perceived as duty his deceased brother. Funny how that "duty" became a reason why Henry believed his marriage should be annulled eh?
__________________

__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #623  
Old 09-06-2013, 07:46 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 4,567
Osipi, I have read dozens of bios of Henry and Catherine since I was about 12, and the marriage to Catherine was a love match. By marrying his brother's pretty young widow Henry fulfilled his late father's wishes while at the same time following the dictates of his own desires at the time.

But there was no real passion and no challenge. Anne Boleyn provided both. If Catherine had mothered a son, Henry would have never left her. Except for his lack of male heirs he was quite content with the status quo.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
Reply With Quote
  #624  
Old 09-06-2013, 07:59 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Osipi, I have read dozens of bios of Henry and Catherine since I was about 12, and the marriage to Catherine was a love match. By marrying his brother's pretty young widow Henry fulfilled his late father's wishes while at the same time following the dictates of his own desires at the time.

But there was no real passion and no challenge. Anne Boleyn provided both. If Catherine had mothered a son, Henry would have never left her. Except for his lack of male heirs he was quite content with the status quo.
+

Sounds like I need to do a bit of reading up on their marriage. Which book would you suggest as the best one that portrays their marriage? I'm not that literate when it comes to Henry's marriages but have really learned a lot since coming here to these forums.
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #625  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:12 PM
Baroness of Books's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bookstacks, United States
Posts: 5,772
Another thing is that Catherine couldn't return to Spain after Arthur's death without her dowry which Henry VII was determined to keep. He arranged for the marriage between Henry and Catherine though Henry was still too young for marriage, but then kept it in limbo for several years since he was unsure that he wanted a further alliance between England and Spain. During this time, Catherine lived in near poverty since she didn't have sufficient funds for her upkeep and Henry immediately married her upon his father's death. While he may have genuinely loved Catherine at that time, it could also be that Henry loved the chase and the more unobtainable the object, the more he was determined to get it - Anne Boleyn being the prime example.
__________________
A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #626  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:14 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 2,177
I have to disagree about Jane Seymour. At the time Henry wed her, Jane was 28- which was absolutely ancient in those days. So, by marrying her, Henry took a woman who'd been resigned to spinsterhood, and largely disregarded by everyone, and made her Queen of England.

It would be odd if Jane hadn't been grateful to Henry, and terrified she would not fulfill his wishes and give him a healthy son. She did, and it cost her her life.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #627  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:22 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 4,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
+

Sounds like I need to do a bit of reading up on their marriage. Which book would you suggest as the best one that portrays their marriage? I'm not that literate when it comes to Henry's marriages but have really learned a lot since coming here to these forums.
Ooohh....that's like asking which book to read about Abe Lincoln...there is an overwhelming body of material out there!

I'd start with Antonia Fraser's "Wives of Henry VIII"...excellent! Sympathetic to each of the women.

Also Alison Weir's "The Six Wives Of Henry VIII" for the same reasons as above.

And a couple of months ago I finished up Sister Queens: The Noble Tragic Lives of Katharine of Aragon and Juana, Queen of Castile " by Julia Fox. It was incredible...in fact if you want to focus only on Katharine start with that one!

Good luck and let me know what you think...pm me!
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
Reply With Quote
  #628  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:24 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
Another thing is that Catherine couldn't return to Spain after Arthur's death without her dowry which Henry VII was determined to keep. He arranged for the marriage between Henry and Catherine though Henry was still too young for marriage, but then kept it in limbo for several years since he was unsure that he wanted a further alliance between England and Spain. During this time, Catherine lived in near poverty since she didn't have sufficient funds for her upkeep and Henry immediately married her upon his father's death. While he may have genuinely loved Catherine at that time, it could also be that Henry loved the chase and the more unobtainable the object, the more he was determined to get it - Anne Boleyn being the prime example.
In the last two months, I read two of Alison Weir's books, Henry VIII: The King and His Court and the Six Wives of Henry VIII. I don't know whether they are the best books. Catherine of Aragon was apparently a beautiful young woman and apparently very intelligent and accomplished. I'm sure Henry was happy to marry her. The fact that Henry VII kept them apart probably did make her more desirable. I also wonder if reversing his father's decision may have added to the allure.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #629  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:25 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
I have to disagree about Jane Seymour. At the time Henry wed her, Jane was 28- which was absolutely ancient in those days. So, by marrying her, Henry took a woman who'd been resigned to spinsterhood, and largely disregarded by everyone, and made her Queen of England.

It would be odd if Jane hadn't been grateful to Henry, and terrified she would not fulfill his wishes and give him a healthy son. She did, and it cost her her life.
She was older and apparently not that pretty. Kind of makes me wonder what the real attraction was. I think he wanted someone "virtuous" and humble, unlike Anne Boleyn.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #630  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:11 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Jane was older but isn't her birth date obscure as just like Anne's. Henry saw the anti Anne in Jane, blond light and quiet. I don't think Henry would ever look for an anti Jane because she didn't stir hatred in him like Anne did. The only wives I think can be said to have loved Henry was Katharine of Aragon and MAYBE Anne Boleyn.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #631  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:40 PM
PrincessKaimi's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hilo, Malibu, United States
Posts: 1,325
Apparently many modern people have forgotten to what extent people, particularly women like Catherine, believed in marriage as a sacrament, irrevocable. It wasn't about "being happy together." God had put you together and no man should put you asunder. Man and wife are one.

It's in the Bible, it's in the Church, it was all around her. Many of the characters in this story were inundated with religious beliefs, and Catherine of Aragon perhaps most of all.

Overturning her God/religion was one way (spiteful really) for Henry to get rid of her maritally and psychologically, but no True Catholic is going to accept that her husband now speaks for God, when she was rightfully wed in the True Church.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #632  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:08 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Divorce was not unheard of at the time especially when the succession was at risk.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #633  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:18 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: colchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
Apparently many modern people have forgotten to what extent people, particularly women like Catherine, believed in marriage as a sacrament, irrevocable. It wasn't about "being happy together." God had put you together and no man should put you asunder. Man and wife are one.

It's in the Bible, it's in the Church, it was all around her. Many of the characters in this story were inundated with religious beliefs, and Catherine of Aragon perhaps most of all.

Overturning her God/religion was one way (spiteful really) for Henry to get rid of her maritally and psychologically, but no True Catholic is going to accept that her husband now speaks for God, when she was rightfully wed in the True Church.


Apart from which, from the moment Catherine left Spain to marry Arthur in her early teens, she was very much on her own. There was no going home to Isabella if things didn't work out, and they didn't. After Arthur's death she was used as a pawn by crafty Henry vii, was at times living in near penury as well as in the damp dismal castles of England. It must have come as sheer relief when she finally married Henry. Good, dutiful, loving wife that she was, she endured his pecadillos and 9(?) pregnancies, only one of which produced a living child, a daughter. For all the reasons PrincessKaimi states, Catherine COULDN'T renounce her marriage but it wasn't just about her personal relationship with God, it was her daughter's relationship with him, too. Denying her legitimacy would have denied her the crown.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #634  
Old 10-19-2013, 01:28 AM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
There was talks of a divorce going ahead but Mary being allowed to stay in the succession but Katharine said no. So it was not all for her daughter. Henry also wasnt going to send Katharine back to Spain if he did get an easy divorce, she was still the Princess Dowager of Wales if she was not the Queen.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #635  
Old 10-23-2013, 11:25 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Another topic of discussion please.
I've been watching and reading up on both Elizabeth Wydeville and Anne Boleyn and it has become apparent that historians paint them as sexually manipulative holding sex in front of the faces of their respective husbands so they will marry them. Why is that always the automatic assumption? Isn't it possible that both Elizabeth and Anne truly had no desire to be any man's mistress King or not? Why do some historians, most notably David Starkey, assume that by saying no to the King they were pushing for marriage?
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #636  
Old 10-24-2013, 12:55 AM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Another topic of discussion please. I've been watching and reading up on both Elizabeth Wydeville and Anne Boleyn and it has become apparent that historians paint them as sexually manipulative holding sex in front of the faces of their respective husbands so they will marry them. Why is that always the automatic assumption? Isn't it possible that both Elizabeth and Anne truly had no desire to be any man's mistress King or not? Why do some historians, most notably David Starkey, assume that by saying no to the King they were pushing for marriage?
Misogyny. There's actually a lot of fascinating analysis about how gender bias plays out in how the history of the Tudors is taught. If I wasn't on my phone, I'd grab you some links. The fact that these women had very few real options open to them is always glossed over.

It particularly plays out in how Katherine Howard is taught- it almost always comes off like she cheated on him and thus her death was justifiable. Rarely is it pointed out that she was a pawn of her family's ambition, and a beautiful teenager thrown into a relationship with an obese, ill man with a foul temper. Of course she'd be tempted away from that by a more genuine adolescent love and sexual attraction.

Henry VIII was a tyrant with very little regard for anyone who couldn't give him exactly what he wanted in the moment he wanted it. That's really the story.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #637  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:24 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Another topic of discussion please.
I've been watching and reading up on both Elizabeth Wydeville and Anne Boleyn and it has become apparent that historians paint them as sexually manipulative holding sex in front of the faces of their respective husbands so they will marry them. Why is that always the automatic assumption? Isn't it possible that both Elizabeth and Anne truly had no desire to be any man's mistress King or not? Why do some historians, most notably David Starkey, assume that by saying no to the King they were pushing for marriage?
I don't know anything about Elizabeth Wydeville but, although I agree that historians have been more harsh in judging women on sexual matters, it is hard to interpret Anne Boleyn's actions as anything other than manipulative.

By virtually all, if not all, contemporary accounts, Anne Boleyn encouraged Henry's pursuit. Since he was married, why flirt with him if she had no intention of becoming his mistress? I understand that women often flirted with the King in order to get favors, but if the King responded to their flirtations, they either had to backtrack quickly or see the flirtation through to its logical conclusion.

Anne did neither. She was certainly aware that his infatuation with her was serious.

Henry apparently offered her an official position as his mistress, which would have given her substantial wealth and power. She took the huge risk of in turning it down. It could have serious consequences for her family if Henry had grown angry.

I think its obvious that Anne was manipulating the King to her advantage. Unfortunately, it didn't work out for her in the end.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #638  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:57 AM
Elly C's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Worcester, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,845
Anne spent some of her formative years at the French Court where we are led to believe she learnt a great deal about the art of flirtation. She was also a bright and well educated woman with many accomplishments. That she chose to use these gifts to "trap a King" was not entirely her choice given the ambition of members of her family, but the way in which she relentlessly stuck to her quest for the title of Queen can only suggest tremendous self belief to the point of recklessness.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #639  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:10 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elly C View Post
Anne spent some of her formative years at the French Court where we are led to believe she learnt a great deal about the art of flirtation. She was also a bright and well educated woman with many accomplishments. That she chose to use these gifts to "trap a King" was not entirely her choice given the ambition of members of her family, but the way in which she relentlessly stuck to her quest for the title of Queen can only suggest tremendous self belief to the point of recklessness.
I don't know if she was reckless when she married him because she stood a good chance of bearing a son. Her actions after the marriage were certainly reckless. She burned many bridges with the King's advisors, notably Cromwell.

After he became convinced she wouldn't bear a son, it's possible Henry may have let her retire to a nunnery if she hadn't alienated his advisors, but I think she was doomed. Henry needed her dead. He didn't want a living ex-wife to cast doubt on the legitimacy of future children.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #640  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:55 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
I've often heard that Anne encourage him but how did she do this? And was it before or after he began seeking to make her life #2
__________________

__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anne boleyn, anne of cleves, biography, british history, catherine howard, catherine of aragon, catherine parr, catholicism, church of england, elizabeth i, henry viii, jane seymour, pope, queen consort, syphilis, tudor


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Potential Wife for Prince Harry Zonk Prince Harry and Prince William 1807 08-25-2014 03:47 AM
Illegitimate Offspring of King Henry I (1068-1135) CarolinaLandgrave British Royal History 23 07-18-2014 05:01 PM
Who is your favourite of Henry VIII's wives? lexi4 British Royal History 287 07-03-2014 12:51 AM
Arthur, Prince of Wales, brother of Henry VIII (1486-1502) iowabelle British Royal History 23 11-24-2011 09:02 PM
"Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII" by David Starkey (2003) ysbel Royal Library 12 11-19-2011 03:44 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit duchess of cambridge dutch royal history engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games olympics ottoman picture of the month poland pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit the hague visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]