The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #601  
Old 09-06-2013, 03:03 AM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Good lord do I have to write in bold TO PRETEND. This is not a historical discussion, this is hypothetical based in real people.
Thank you Ish for your reply and for taking the time to even attempt to delve trough my rambling thoughts. You are right, what kind of life is the first wife, Katharine fighting for and why? When her husband blatantly makes it clear he doesn't want her. And the younger woman should definitely think about what will happen to her when she starts to age.
I just have this image of Katharine and Anne in a room alone facing each other and they are both laying it out on the table. Bottom line wife 1 won't declare herself a who---, potential wife 2 won't allow herself to become one.
__________________

__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #602  
Old 09-06-2013, 03:09 AM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Which one of us was that directed at?
Not you Ish my bad.
__________________

__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #603  
Old 09-06-2013, 03:11 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
I actually really liked the hypothetical.

I think in the hypothetical we have to feel for both, but in the grander scheme of it we should feel for all 3. The whole thing was very political and none of them can be simplified easily into the roles of the jilted wife, the devious mistress, or the sexist and philandering husband - although, I think that's how they're often portrayed. In breaking it down to a more hypothetical context we're able to look at the 3 of them without many of the usual biases that we have.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #604  
Old 09-06-2013, 03:14 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post

Not you Ish my bad.
Thanks. I figured it out when you edited your post, that's why I deleted mine.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #605  
Old 09-06-2013, 08:00 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
It's an interesting question, but I think we do need to clarify that we are discussing an idealized version of Anne.

Regardless, I am least sympathetic to Anne. Even if she was a virgin in love, he was a married man and she knew it. I don't know if her actual birth date is known, but she was in her twenties when she started her pursuit of Henry.

Catherine is more sympathetic. Not only was she concerned about her daughter's status, she was very religious and she truly believed her marriage was valid. Catherine would have been committing a serious sin if she had falsely sworn that her marriage was invalid. She would have been also allowing Henry to commit bigamy, which would have meant that any children of Henry's subsequent marriage should not have been eligible for the throne because they were illegitimate.

I understand Henry's need for a male heir and his attitude towards women has to be understood in the context of the times. His concern for religious piety, however, was selective--adultery was a sin in the 1500s, too.

It is interesting that Henry decided that his lack of a son was God's punishment for marrying his brother's wife, rather than payback for all his extramarital affairs. He also didn't seem to consider that Anne Boleyn's failure to produce a son may have been a demonstration of God's displeasure over Henry's break with the Catholic church and the pillaging of the monasteries.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #606  
Old 09-06-2013, 09:54 AM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 2,666
And I have the least sympathy for Henry.

Why do we tend to endlessly weigh one woman against another without the spotlight on the guy?

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?
__________________
“For is there any practice less selfish, any labor less alienated, any time less wasted, than preparing something delicious and nourishing for people you love." Michael Pollan, Cooked
Reply With Quote
  #607  
Old 09-06-2013, 10:49 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?
I don't think Henry ever accepted responsibility for his own actions.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #608  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 2,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
You are right, what kind of life is the first wife, Katharine fighting for and why?
I don't think Katharine was fighting for her own life; she was fighting for her daughter, and her God.
She could have given in, come to an arrangement with Henry; that is what Anne of Cleeves did, and she had quite a comfortable life.

But if she did, she knew Mary would be out of the line of succession, and Henry would disregard the Pope and proclaim himself head of the Church.
Yes, these things happened anyway, but Katharine did not collude in them, she kept her sense of integrity.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #609  
Old 09-06-2013, 11:31 AM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 1729 Noneofyourbusiness Drive, United States
Posts: 2,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?
Um....never.
As for Henry not thinking his lack of a son was due to his cheating, many kings cheated on their wives and they still had sons. Also one of Henry's affairs produced a son. I'm not excusing his behavior but after Fitzroy was born I can understand how Henry would come to the conclusion that his lack of a legitimate male heir wasn't his fault.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #610  
Old 09-06-2013, 04:01 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
To clarify, I am not sympathetic to Henry taking a mistress (or several), but I am sympathetic about his desire for a son. It is not like he just wanted someone to carry his name or to prove his manhood (although that was part of it), but he really believed he needed a male heir for England's safety and stability.

XeniaCasaraghi, I agree with you that Henry probably viewed Henry Fitzroy's survival as proof that the lack of legitimate male heirs was not his fault, but I'm not sure that it would have been any different if Fitzroy hadn't survived. I don't see Henry blaming himself under any circumstances.

He was desperate and annulling his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was something he could do. He hoped that Catherine would simply step aside and go into a nunnery and let him provide England with a male heir.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #611  
Old 09-06-2013, 04:16 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
You kinda of have to question why Catherine wouldn't step aside.

Even if Mary was declared a bastard, Henry had shown that he would provide for his acknowledged bastards - he provided for FitzRoy.

Mary would have been removed from the line of succession, but she wouldn't have necessarily been in the succession any ways because of her gender. Henry himself established the idea that women could in fact be monarch of England, when previously it had been established that they couldn't inherit but their sons (or grandsons) could.

What's more is that Henry's own father's rule had established that men descended through illegitimate lines could come to the throne, so it was possible that Mary's (hypothetical) child could one day rule.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #612  
Old 09-06-2013, 04:29 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
You kinda of have to question why Catherine wouldn't step aside.

Even if Mary was declared a bastard, Henry had shown that he would provide for his acknowledged bastards - he provided for FitzRoy.

Mary would have been removed from the line of succession, but she wouldn't have necessarily been in the succession any ways because of her gender. Henry himself established the idea that women could in fact be monarch of England, when previously it had been established that they couldn't inherit but their sons (or grandsons) could.

What's more is that Henry's own father's rule had established that men descended through illegitimate lines could come to the throne, so it was possible that Mary's (hypothetical) child could one day rule.
Good point about the precedent set by Henry VII.

I think Catherine's reasons for not stepping aside were more religious than anything else. The problem for Henry is what Catherine was past child bearing age, so he needed a younger wife.

Catherine did not make it easy for him. He couldn't kill her but he knew many people considered any child he had with Anne illegitimate.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #613  
Old 09-06-2013, 04:41 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post

Good point about the precedent set by Henry VII.

I think Catherine's reasons for not stepping aside were more religious than anything else. The problem for Henry is what Catherine was past child bearing age, so he needed a younger wife.

Catherine did not make it easy for him. He couldn't kill her but he knew many people considered any child he had with Anne illegitimate.
I get that. I do think the harder she made it for him, the more vindictive he got - which he took out on her, their daughter, and even his later wives.

If we allow for the assumption that Anne didn't actually have the affairs then we could argue that the motivation in the harshness of her treatment was because Henry didn't want to repeat the mistakes of his first marriage. If we believe that Anne did have the affairs - or at least some of them - a possible motive can be that she was trying to conceive a male child by any means, to ensure that what happened to Catherine and her daughter did not happen to her and Elizabeth.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #614  
Old 09-06-2013, 05:08 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
I get that. I do think the harder she made it for him, the more vindictive he got - which he took out on her, their daughter, and even his later wives.

If we allow for the assumption that Anne didn't actually have the affairs then we could argue that the motivation in the harshness of her treatment was because Henry didn't want to repeat the mistakes of his first marriage. If we believe that Anne did have the affairs - or at least some of them - a possible motive can be that she was trying to conceive a male child by any means, to ensure that what happened to Catherine and her daughter did not happen to her and Elizabeth.
As usual, very interesting. I agree with your summary of his motivations. Henry had Anne executed because it would have been inconvenient for her to be alive. Some people would have considered her Henry's true wife and it may have cast doubt on the legitimacy of subsequent children. The only way to avoid that would have been to repent and return to the Roman Catholic Church but that probably would have required him to return the money to the monasteries.

I tend to think she was innocent of the charges, but he convinced himself she was guilty because he was good at deluding himself.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #615  
Old 09-06-2013, 05:18 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post

As usual, very interesting. I agree with your summary of his motivations. Henry had Anne executed because it would have been inconvenient for her to be alive. Some people would have considered her Henry's true wife and it may have cast doubt on the legitimacy of subsequent children. The only way to avoid that would have been to repent and return to the Roman Catholic Church but that probably would have required him to return the money to the monasteries.

I tend to think she was innocent of the charges, but he convinced himself she was guilty because he was good at deluding himself.
Not only was he good at deluding himself, but those around him were good at spinning stories and deluding him.

The Boleyns gained a lot from their connection to the king. They also had many enemies, who wanted them gone. A dead Queen is better than a living ex-Queen.

It's also important to note that 3 thing happened in 1536. In order: Catherine of Aragon died, Anne Boleyn died, and then Henry VIII married Jane Seymour. I kind of wonder how much Catherine's death also helped to seal the fate of Anne. People were divided on which of Henry's daughters they considered legitimate; was it the first or the second marriage that was valid? With both of his first two wives dead, however, Henry was in a position where no one could question the legitimacy of the children from his third marriage.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #616  
Old 09-06-2013, 05:38 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Not only was he good at deluding himself, but those around him were good at spinning stories and deluding him.

The Boleyns gained a lot from their connection to the king. They also had many enemies, who wanted them gone. A dead Queen is better than a living ex-Queen.

It's also important to note that 3 thing happened in 1536. In order: Catherine of Aragon died, Anne Boleyn died, and then Henry VIII married Jane Seymour. I kind of wonder how much Catherine's death also helped to seal the fate of Anne. People were divided on which of Henry's daughters they considered legitimate; was it the first or the second marriage that was valid? With both of his first two wives dead, however, Henry was in a position where no one could question the legitimacy of the children from his third marriage.
It is striking how quickly Anne Boleyn fell after Catherine's death and her own miscarriage. It was about 3 months until her arrest..
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #617  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:01 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is online now
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post

It is striking how quickly Anne Boleyn fell after Catherine's death and her own miscarriage. It was about 3 months until her arrest..
It's all very timely...

January 8/9, Catherine dies
January 29, Anne miscarries
May 2, Anne is arrested
May 14, the marriage is dissolved
May 19, Anne is executed
May 30, Henry marries Jane
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #618  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:09 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
It's all very timely...

January 8/9, Catherine dies
January 29, Anne miscarries
May 2, Anne is arrested
May 14, the marriage is dissolved
May 19, Anne is executed
May 30, Henry marries Jane
When I see those dates, I always wonder how Jane felt about it. I don't know if she had a real choice in the matter. If she willingly married Henry, it would lend credence to the theory that Anne was guilty of adultery. Jane was a lady in waiting and certainly heard court gossip.

She was obviously not an 'Anne fan," but to marry a man who just had his wife executed....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #619  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:13 PM
Baroness of Books's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bookstacks, United States
Posts: 5,772
I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.
__________________
A book should be either a bandit or a rebel or a man in the crowd..... D.H. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #620  
Old 09-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baroness of Books View Post
I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.
It's unfortunate that there aren't any letters, either from her or from one of her confidents. She probably wouldn't have confided her doubts, if she had any.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anne boleyn, anne of cleves, biography, british history, catherine howard, catherine of aragon, catherine parr, catholicism, church of england, elizabeth i, henry viii, jane seymour, pope, queen consort, syphilis, tudor


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who is your favourite of Henry VIII's wives? lexi4 British Royal History 288 10-10-2014 01:55 PM
A Potential Wife for Prince Harry Zonk Prince Harry and Prince William 1807 08-25-2014 03:47 AM
Illegitimate Offspring of King Henry I (1068-1135) CarolinaLandgrave British Royal History 23 07-18-2014 05:01 PM
Arthur, Prince of Wales, brother of Henry VIII (1486-1502) iowabelle British Royal History 23 11-24-2011 09:02 PM
"Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII" by David Starkey (2003) ysbel Royal Library 12 11-19-2011 03:44 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pom president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess mabel princess margriet princess mary princess mary fashion queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague visit wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:04 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]