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  #581  
Old 04-06-2013, 12:33 AM
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Yeah my first thought was Henry Fitzroy as well, I assume we should t throw in any "what if he doesn't die" scenarios because how could Henry not going for a divorce prevent Henry from dying. So either was if Henry VIII does not pursue a divorce the England is screwed.
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  #582  
Old 04-06-2013, 01:03 AM
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Not necessarily. If Henry had acknowledged James V as his heir then a huge war could have probably been adverted.

The problem with Matilda was that she was the acknowledged heir in a time when women weren't considered to be able to rule. Mary could have faced this as well, especially if she'd been young when she inherited (she would have been 20 in 1536). James was older, male, undeniably legitimate, and of the Tudor line.

Actually, if FitzRoy had been named heir over Mary and Henry had died while FitzRoy and James were both still alive there might have still been a war - it all depends on how ambitious James was. Mary of Scots' claim to the English throne was based on the idea that Elizabeth was illegitimate - James could have claimed that all the Tudor children (we're there no Edward) were illegitimate and thus his claim was the stronger one.
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  #583  
Old 04-06-2013, 09:17 PM
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Off the current topic:

Can someone help me understand Anne Boleyn's hatred for Wolsey? It seems to stem from his breakup of her and Percy but that seems like quite a trivial thing to destroy someone's life over. Or did the Percy thing just make her distrustful of him and as the divorce went on that distrust grew into her becoming his enemy?
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  #584  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:51 PM
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IIRC Woolsey was very much against her relationship with the king, he wanted him to marry a French princess IIRC. He never intended for her to marry Henry.


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  #585  
Old 04-07-2013, 04:11 AM
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Cardinal Wolsey was supposed to be keeping an eye on Harry Percy, the heir to the Earl of Northumberland. Harry Percy and Anne became "involved" - there was later speculation that they were actually engaged, which would have invalidated her marriage to Henry VIII. The Boleyns were a long way below the Percys socially, so it would have been a brilliant match for Anne, and Wolsey intervened and (to use modern parlance!) split them up. Anne always bore a grudge against him for that. So, yes, I'd say that it was because of the Percy thing. You'd think she'd've got over that once she had a chance of becoming queen, but I suppose she was angry that Wolsey had thought she wasn't good enough to marry an earl's son and, once she had power, she wanted revenge.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:20 PM
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Yes I know the story of the Percy event but still she seems so vindictive and over sensitive to hate Wolsey for just that. Everyone else around her had better reasons for hating him but hers seems so trivial. I've been watching a few documentaries and movies and it is always the Percy thing that spurs her onto revenge: and every time I hear about it I keep thinking to myself "get over it"!
If indeed her hatred for him had to do with him trying to separate her from Henry it would make a little more sense.
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  #587  
Old 04-07-2013, 04:25 PM
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I think she already disliked him due to Percy...but his attempt to 'remove' her from Henry really put things at a more intense level.


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Old 04-13-2013, 07:31 PM
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Has anyone read the Joanna Denny book on Anne Boleyn? I haven't read such a biased book since the other Boleyn girl, but unlike that one it is biased in the other direction. This woman hates Catholics and Katharine of Aragon. She obviously pits down Katharine to build up Anne.
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  #589  
Old 05-20-2013, 05:18 AM
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Fallen In Love (REVIEW): Anne Boleyn Returns To Tower of London To Answer Questions Of Incest
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:48 PM
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When I said the wives who weren't his subjects essentially meant those who were foreigners who had powerful friends or whose executions would have cause a bigger uproar. I guess because their families were not under Henry's thumb they could cause problems.
Also what do people think about Henry's hopes for his sixth marriage? Do you think he expected children out of it or had he given up? I have read in fiction and non fiction books that one of the reasons he turned against her was because she gave him no sons. But wouldn't Henry have assumed she was incapable?
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:46 PM
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I believe the problems that Catherine Parr ran into during her marriage were religious ones.

While England had separated from Rome in religion it was still a Catholic country under Henry - they didn't become Protestant until Edward. Catherine, however, was a Protestant and wrote in promotion of the reformation. This angered Henry's bishops who tried to turn him against her.

I doubt children came into it. She was capable o bearing children - she had a daughter through her last marriage. Henry might not have been capable of fathering more children at that point in his life, and while he may have been anxious about having an heir earlier on in his life by the time he married Catherine he had a male heir, and Edward wasn't actually sickly until near the end of his life, after his father's passing. As far as Henry knew, the succession was assured.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Has anyone read the Joanna Denny book on Anne Boleyn? I haven't read such a biased book since the other Boleyn girl, but unlike that one it is biased in the other direction. This woman hates Catholics and Katharine of Aragon. She obviously pits down Katharine to build up Anne.
I have read reviews of the Denny book, but do not plan to read the book itself for precisely that reason. I very much admire and feel sympathy for Henry's first, noblest queen Katherine of Aragon.

I've no interest in reading a hatchet job and especially not a bigoted anti-Catholic one.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:09 AM
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King Henry VIII was never a Protestant – Telegraph Blogs
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Old 06-02-2013, 05:46 PM
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Thanks for the interesting article! It's true though, Henry wasn't a Protestant, he was a Catholic at heart who essentially established himself as the Pope of England. Some of his wives were followers of Protestant beliefs - the first two Catherines and Jane were Catholic, the first Anne and the third Catherine were both Anglican, and the second Anne flip-flopped in her religious beliefs. His children were all over the place too; Edward was Protestant, Mary was Catholic, and Elizabeth really bridged the gap with the development of the CoE, which is officially both reformed and catholic.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:35 AM
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I guess he was the original Anglo Catholic.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:17 PM
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Catherine Parr died on this day,September 5th,1548.Her remains were buried at St. Mary's Chapel, Sudeley Castle.

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  #597  
Old 09-06-2013, 01:01 AM
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New question, having no affect on each other, which woman do you side with:
The older wife/queen who refuses to be bullied into a divorce by her husband
Or
The young "virgin" who refuses to sleep with any man before marriage.
Ignore that Anne might or might not be a virgin, pretend Anne just doesn't want to be a mistress and has no ambition to be Queen. Ignore Katharine's pride, and the whole was she or wasn't she a virgin.
If either one gives in it will be a sin.
2 women, one who refuses to give into a divorce and one who refuses to be a mistress. Whose side do you take, who do you think should take one for the team and throw in the towel?
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  #598  
Old 09-06-2013, 02:58 AM
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I feel for both of them.

The older woman is clinging to her life. Even outside of the context of Henry VIII, historically she's likely to be financially dependant on him. Without him either she loses the ability to provide for her child(ren) or loses custody of them entirely.

The younger woman, however, is likely in love with the man and wishes to be with him, and her morality will not allow her to do so unless they are wed. As she's young she's also likely naive enough to believe that this man who is openly cheating on his wife loves her and won't one day cast her aside as well. She's standing behind her values, much like the older woman is fighting for her life.

You do have to question what kind of life it is that the older woman is fighting for - she's fighting to remain in a marriage with a man who she knows cheats on her and does not love her. You also have to question how the younger woman doesn't realize that once upon a time the wife was young and loved by her husband, and what he's done to his wife he may one day do to her.

More in the context, however, we also have to consider the case of the husband. I find that often we judge him with a modern set of values and as such consider him to be unnecessarily cruel - both towards his wives, his children, and those who opposed him - and rather sexist. It's not really fair, though, to judge him by the values of the 21st century.

Without looking at his later behaviour, the husband here is a man whose rule isn't necessarily as stable as he'd like it. In addition to the religious reformation that's sweeping Europe and causing a lot of problems for monarchs, he also has to deal with the fact that his right to rule is based on somewhat shaky ground and people who believe they have a better claim (or just don't like how he does things) have at various points in his reign tried to over throw him. His claim comes through three things - his father's descent from a much earlier king through an illegitimate and not entirely male line, his mother being the surviving heir of a previous monarch, and his father having conquered the throne. Unfortunately, people, other people who have claims that are just as good still exist and challenge him, meaning that if his successor isn't strong then that successor may end up being deposed.

Remember that this man came to the throne only a generation after the end of a very long war fighting over that very throne - one that started because there were too many different people who had claims and thought they should be on the throne. Also remember that in the history of the realm, only one woman had ever tried to claim the this throne - an act that lead to a period in history known as the Anarchy. With that in mind, the lack of a legitimate male heir clearly becomes a big deal. In trying to get out of a marriage that - in addition to being an unhappy one by that point - can no longer provide him with children, and into a marriage that has the potential to produce male children, the man can be seen as trying to not only preserve his legacy but also to ensure the future stability of his realm.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
New question, having no affect on each other, which woman do you side with:
The older wife/queen who refuses to be bullied into a divorce by her husband
Or
The young "virgin" who refuses to sleep with any man before marriage.
Ignore that Anne might or might not be a virgin, pretend Anne just doesn't want to be a mistress and has no ambition to be Queen. Ignore Katharine's pride, and the whole was she or wasn't she a virgin.
If either one gives in it will be a sin.
2 women, one who refuses to give into a divorce and one who refuses to be a mistress. Whose side do you take, who do you think should take one for the team and throw in the towel?
I don't think Anne could ever be looked on in such a simple way. She was actively working with Henry to end his marraige and encouraged him to humilliate Catherine. She was also pregnant before she married hum so she wasn't that virtuous either.
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Old 09-06-2013, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
New question, having no affect on each other, which woman do you side with:
The older wife/queen who refuses to be bullied into a divorce by her husband
Or
The young "virgin" who refuses to sleep with any man before marriage.
Ignore that Anne might or might not be a virgin, pretend Anne just doesn't want to be a mistress and has no ambition to be Queen. Ignore Katharine's pride, and the whole was she or wasn't she a virgin.
If either one gives in it will be a sin.
2 women, one who refuses to give into a divorce and one who refuses to be a mistress. Whose side do you take, who do you think should take one for the team and throw in the towel?
I don't think Anne could ever be looked on in such a simple way. She was actively working with Henry to end his marraige and encouraged him to humilliate Catherine. She was also pregnant before she married him so she wasn't sexually virtuous either when it suited her.
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