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  #41  
Old 10-30-2007, 04:19 AM
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One should not forget that Germany was war-torn then, the conflicts between the small principalities plus the emperor against France. Not as nice a place to stay than it was in England, when you were favoured by the king. Anne even was afraid that the king might get suspicious of her correspondence with her family in Germany, so she offered to let him read her letters and her replys. Which he did and so came to really trust her.

Henry had been interested in a Danish princess as well, niece of the emperor through her mother Isabella of Austria and widow of the duke of Milan but this marriage did not come to pass as the emperor wasn't in need of Henry as an ally, so Christina of Denmark ended up married to the duke of Lorraine. But when she became a widow of a second time, she retired to her dower estate in the dukedom of Milan because this was far safer and far more comfortable than her other options.
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  #42  
Old 10-30-2007, 12:41 PM
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Yes and I just think the thinking in Spain was more rigid at the time. This was the era when the Inquisition was started. I did a paper on it in college and it was really weird how totally uptight and unyielding some of their religious thinking was at the time. All of the nations of the age had that to some extent but in other countries, there was more of a willingness to bend to rules to get a desired result (aka, Henry forming a Church of england, or France trying to get their favorite pope elected) but in Spain they seemed to believe in the one true way and really believe it. It was scary in a way.
Which was too bad because they lost a lot in art work and culture by driving the Moors out. I wonder if that isn't where some of the radical Muslim hatred roots have come from.
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  #43  
Old 10-30-2007, 09:39 PM
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Which was too bad because they lost a lot in art work and culture by driving the Moors out. I wonder if that isn't where some of the radical Muslim hatred roots have come from.
Well the roots of the Inquisition were definitely anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish so it looks like the Spaniards of the age were rather equal opportunity in their persecutions - as long as you were not a strict gentile Catholic you were in danger of persecution. Even Jews that had converted to Christianity were tortured and burned by the Inquisition.
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  #44  
Old 10-30-2007, 10:01 PM
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Anne even was afraid that the king might get suspicious of her correspondence with her family in Germany, so she offered to let him read her letters and her replys. Which he did and so came to really trust her.
Hmm, she must have had a really low opinion of her brother to do that. I'm really interested though in her countryman Hans Holbein from Augsburg who did her portrait. He travelled around northern Europe and Holland and caught some really unique images of people at the time. Apparently he was so homesick when he went to do Anne's portrait, that he was overjoyed at being at home again to the point where everything and everyone he painted at that time became beautiful. Henry VIII never forgave Holbein for deceiving him and he died of the plague a few years later.

Holbein also did some amazing portraits of African Negroes living in Amsterdam at the time which were the first realistic depiction of that race at the time. Holbein got an introduction to Sir Thomas More, the great lawyer and statesman through their mutual acquaintanceship with Erasmus and through Sir Thomas More, Holbein gained an introduction to Henry VIII's court.

People today don't realize how much Holbein contributed to the image of the court of Henry VIII that we have today. He painted all the major portraits, and he was copied by other artists extensively in his lifetime. He even designed the costumes and the jewels. So not only the portraits we see are of Holbein but the dresses and the jewels were designed by him also.

Here is the infamous portrait of Anne of Cleves whose clothes he did not design (she was wearing the German style of the time) and his sketches of Queen Jane Seymour, the mother of Edward VI. At the time of this early sketch, the clothes Jane is wearing had not been manufactured yet; Holbein was still in the process of designing them. By the time the painting came out though the clothes had been designed.
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  #45  
Old 10-30-2007, 11:56 PM
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Well the roots of the Inquisition were definitely anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish so it looks like the Spaniards of the age were rather equal opportunity in their persecutions - as long as you were not a strict gentile Catholic you were in danger of persecution. Even Jews that had converted to Christianity were tortured and burned by the Inquisition.
They drove out the Jews and the Moors by 1492.

spanish inquisition:

I have been to Granada and have seen the Alhambra and it was gorgeous! The artwork was breathtaking. Granada, I found out, was pomagranate that Isabella took as part of her coat of arms. It is too bad that F & I's religious zealotry drove out some good craftsmen.
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  #46  
Old 11-04-2007, 03:40 PM
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Henry was also interested in Anne's of Cleve's younger sister, Amelia.

Anne... or Amelia?

He possibly courted Marie de Guise.

Marie de Guise: Mother to Mary, Queen of Scots
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  #47  
Old 11-05-2007, 03:35 PM
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In Antonia Fraser's book, it also mentions that right after the execution of A.B., some hares (similar to rabbits - they supposedly represent 'the witch') where seen running in the fields nearby, and they were seen again and again on every anniversary of her death. Let's remember that at a certain point, Henry said that he had been 'bewitched' or put under a spell by Anne Boleyn.

The book also mentions tales about the candles in the tomb of Catherine of Aragon, lighting themselves without any help or human intervention, when she was executed.

Brrrrrrrrr
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  #48  
Old 11-05-2007, 04:46 PM
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Here a link to 'The Tudors Quizzes' to test your knowledge on each one...

Tudor England: Quizzes: Test your knowledge of Tudor England
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  #49  
Old 11-05-2007, 06:50 PM
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There is such an uproar over whether or not Anne had that "extra finger". Has her body ever been exhumed?
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  #50  
Old 11-05-2007, 11:28 PM
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I saw a show on the Discovery Channel and according to the Guard's at the Tower of London, Anne's ghost walks around with her head under her arm across the space where she was beheaded every night.
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  #51  
Old 11-06-2007, 04:40 AM
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There is such an uproar over whether or not Anne had that "extra finger". Has her body ever been exhumed?
The six fingers, as well as other legends of other deformities, were quite popular, however they are almost certainly untrue. They were most likely planted by Catherine of Aragon supporters to increase Anne's unpopularity, because sixth finger was considered 'mark of devil' at the time.

There is no contemporary evidence to support the legend of 6th finger. None of the many eyewitness accounts of Anne Boleyn’s appearance mention any deformities, let alone a sixth finger.

Anne was not typical beauty for her time. She was too thin and had too dark skin. Here is a detailes contemporary accounts of Anne's appearance, and it, like all other accounts, lacks mention of any deformities.
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She was never described as a great beauty, but even those who loathed her admitted that she had a dramatic allure. Her dark complexion and black hair gave her an exotic aura in a culture that saw milk-white paleness as essential to beauty. Her eyes were especially striking: “black and beautiful” wrote one contemporary, while another averred they were “always most attractive,” and that she “well knew how to use them with effect
A poet, William Forrest (who was very much in Catherine of Aragon league, by the way, having written a poem about her), was impressed by Ann'es charisma, fashion sense.

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Anne’s charm lay not so much in her physical appearance as in her vivacious personality, her gracefulness, her quick wit and other accomplishments. She was petite in stature, and had an appealing fragility about her… she shone at singing, making music, dancing and conversation… Not surprisingly, the young men of the court swarmed around her.
Even Anne's most severe critics (who've actually met her) never mentioned 6 fingers or other deformations:
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“To us she appears inconsistent – religious yet aggressive, calculating yet emotional, with the light touch of the courtier yet the strong grip of the politician … A woman in her own right – taken on her own terms in a man’s world; a woman who mobilized her education, her style and her presence to outweigh the disadvantages of her sex; of only moderate good looks, but taking a court and a king by storm. Perhaps, in the end, it is Thomas Cromwell’s assessment that comes nearest: intelligence, spirit and courage
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  #52  
Old 11-08-2007, 06:51 AM
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In antonia frasiers book the six wives of henry viii, ... Possibly Anne Boleyn did have a vestigial sixth finger on her left hand, which understandably she took some pain to conceal.(note: the story comes from the hostile source Nicolas Sander, who simply said she had "six fingers"; yet there are corroborative details from the sympathetic biography of George Wyatt which make it plausible: that she had "some little show of (extra) nail" on the side of one of her other fingers, and how Anne Boleyn would try to conceal it. Had she led a more conventional life, however, such a minor blemish would have attracted no attention.
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  #53  
Old 11-08-2007, 02:01 PM
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No doubt Mistress Anne was vilified as a witch when Great Harry wanted to rid himself of her. Her physical appearances, moles, maybe a little lump on the pinkie, suited Harry's goal of ridding himself of a "barren" wife. Still, it would be incredibly interesting, (in my twisted curiosity killed the cat sort of way. . .) to know if it existed.
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  #54  
Old 11-08-2007, 02:11 PM
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I like this sites
TudorHistory.org

The Six Wives of Henry VIII


The Six Wives of Henry VIII. Meet the Wives | PBS
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  #55  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:09 PM
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I catched an old Richard Burton movie on Henry VIII - but only gets to Anne Boleyn and her 'end'. In that movie, Anne Boleyn is shown from a really different side than in the current 'The Tudors' tv series, or even in Antonia Fraser's book. She seems to be a really young (her looks reminded me of a perverse Laura Ingalls) bratty girl who hated and despised Henry, until she grasped the feeling of power, for which she slowly tends to 'love' the monarch.
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  #56  
Old 11-08-2007, 04:23 PM
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I like this forum. Few pages about Tudors
The Tudors

about Anne Boleyn
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  #57  
Old 11-11-2007, 12:39 AM
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I catched an old Richard Burton movie on Henry VIII - but only gets to Anne Boleyn and her 'end'. In that movie, Anne Boleyn is shown from a really different side than in the current 'The Tudors' tv series, or even in Antonia Fraser's book. She seems to be a really young (her looks reminded me of a perverse Laura Ingalls) bratty girl who hated and despised Henry, until she grasped the feeling of power, for which she slowly tends to 'love' the monarch.
I would imagine that it's rather easy to fall in love with power or the idea of being Queen.
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:51 AM
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Especially when it wasn't clear by then what a dangerous person Henry could be when he didn't get his way.
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  #59  
Old 11-11-2007, 02:44 AM
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I think that, in all fairness, there are one or two things about Henry VIII which should not be forgotten.

First, he was an intellectual giant. He had a finely-honed mind; was of a generous artistic disposition; composed some fine music and wrote some passable poetry. He was married, for reasons of state, to Katharine of Aragon, his brother's widow, at age 17 or 18. He never liked her, much, and resented being married off to her. In fact, he resisted it.

He was raised to believe that he was invincible. He fell passionately in love with Anne Boleyn, for which history must be grateful. The result of this union was the incomparable Elizabeth I, whom even the Pope declared to be 'the finest prince(cess) in Chistendom', i.e. she was, by far, the smartest and the best educated and the most politically astute. It was a shock, too. Elizabeth was, astonishingly, a woman!

Anne Boleyn was cruelly murdered by her husband. This is unforgiveable, but succession and primogeniture was the major issue of Henry's day, and although he was astute enough to know that he was slandering her and ensuring her death, social and regal imperatives were more important to him than human life, even his wife's.

Anne Boleyn remains the only wife whom Henry VIII deliberately killed! (Not that that's any sort of an excuse). Katharine Howard, also executed, was found in flagrante delecto, and there was absolutely nothing which Henry could have done to save her life, even if he wanted to do so....and there's some evidence that he actually did want to do so! What she did was, in law, an act of High Treason.

Henry VIII was also a good son of Mother Church. In fact, his title, Defender of the Faith, was conferred on him by the Pope, for his rigorous defence of the Catholic Church against the claims of Martin Luther! Not too many people know that. As our current monarch carries the title, it shouldn't be forgotten how Henry attained it, particularly as the throne of Britain is denied to catholics or those who marry a Catholic.

The Pope was about to grant Henry's wish for an annulment of his marriage to Katharine of Aragon, but he was surrounded by The Holy Roman Emperor's troops, who forced the Pope to deny Henry's wishes.

We are left, then, hundreds of years later, with hundreds of years of spin.

Henry VIII may well have been devoid of some of the finer sensitivities which we, today, think of as normal and usual, but in his own day and age, he was a lodestar of learning and sophistication, the fine arts, and just the usual sort of guy who wants sons to carry to his legacy and genes.

As for Sir Thomas More, my view has always been that he foolishly supported a venal and corrupt Pope, only because he was Pope and couldn't appreciate the real politik of the situation. If the Pople had been absolutely infallible and spiritually and intellectually constant, then I could have understood Sir Thomas much better; indeed, I would have supported him. The Pope at the time was, quite simply, a wuss!

Henry VIII, who died, miserably, of syphilis, was a remarkable monarch. His daughter, who inherited his intellect, was an even better one.

I've gotta tell you, but, that ERI successfully pulled the wool over many people's eyes, too. Recent scholarship and research has proved that she was, indeed, a Mum, and one of her sons was one of the greatest politicians and writers ever produced by England, i.e. the luminous Sir Francis Bacon.

After some years of reading in this area, I'm convinced that ERI was indeed married to Leicester. Another son, I believe was Essex, who tried to usurp Elizabeth and claim the throne as 'his right'. Her dedication to state can be viewed through her most reluctant decision to have him executed due to his treason.

In the early C21, doesn't everything seem so pallid and inconsequential compared to all of this love, lust, passion and power?
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Old 11-12-2007, 04:09 AM
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He was spoiled rotten as a child, all attention to teaching ruling qualities were given to his brother, no one expected henry to become king.
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