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  #561  
Old 04-01-2013, 12:58 AM
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Of course the Emperor wouldn't want the marriage to be declared non-existent; like with Catherine they wouldn't want it proclaimed she had never been his wife. But is it certain that Charles would have had the same problem if the marriage had been declared valid, Catherine not a whore and Mary legitimate but the marriage ending in a divorce. Perhaps Charles might have still been upset but is it possible he would not have been so vehemently against it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:57 AM
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That's the problem though: Charles V was vehemently against the dissolution of the marriage in any form, be it annulment (which doesn't not necessarily mean Mary would be declared a bastard; they had been precedents when the Pope declared children from a marriage legitimate even after he annulled it), or divorce.

The Emperor considered a possible divorce a grave insult against his family - the most powerful one in Europe of the time. And for it to come from a "mere" Tudor? A dynasty that had a grand total of two Monarchs? Unthinkable. Charles V made his wishes perfectly clear to the Pope, and the latter was just two afraid of him to disobey.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:03 AM
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And the reason the pope was his 'puppet' and 'afraid' was that he was being held a virtual prisoner at the time by Charles.




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Old 04-02-2013, 10:59 PM
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If Katharine refused to let Henry go so he could have a son do you think that perhaps makes her selfish. Lets just 86 the whole Leviticus thing; if Henry went to Katharine and told her he needed a male heir to succeed him and she said no would that make her less sympathetic? There is no Anne Boleyn instead Henry plans to marry a French princess instead.
Of course today we know about Elizabeth and Victoria and Catherine the Great, but in Henry's time the last time the English throne was left to a women it led to a long war. So his need for a son in real.
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  #565  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:53 PM
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If Katharine refused to let Henry go so he could have a son do you think that perhaps makes her selfish. Lets just 86 the whole Leviticus thing; if Henry went to Katharine and told her he needed a male heir to succeed him and she said no would that make her less sympathetic? There is no Anne Boleyn instead Henry plans to marry a French princess instead.
Of course today we know about Elizabeth and Victoria and Catherine the Great, but in Henry's time the last time the English throne was left to a women it led to a long war. So his need for a son in real.
The last time an English throne had been left in a woman's hand was 368 years before Henry was born.

Henry's need for a son wasn't necessarily as pressing as he made it - it was born in part out of his own desire to see his family name continued (which is a legitimate cause, especially given as his family fought hard for it's position). Even if we allowed for the idea that women couldn't inherit, the War of the Roses showed us that it was acceptable for men to inherit through female lines when necessary. Around the time of Henry's divorce he had a nephew through his elder sister's line - James V of Scotland. Henry also had an illegitimate son (who didn't die until after Anne) who could have been set up as the heir under the precedence of William I.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:56 AM
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Probably emperor Charles preferred a future queen of England with close family bonds to him to an English heir not related to him. Another reason he opposed a divorce and remarriage of Henry.
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  #567  
Old 04-03-2013, 03:14 AM
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The Tudors had a lot of bad luck with sons! I understand Henry not wanting to leave the throne to his nephew James of Scotland because of the bad feeling between England and Scotland at the time, but his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy died fairly young, and although he was married he had no children, and his sister Mary's son (Lady Jane Grey's uncle), who would have been a better bet as he was legitimate and not linked to any foreign power, also died young. His niece Frances Grey née Brandon had no surviving sons either, and when his sister Margaret remarried she had a daughter, Margaret, by her second marriage but no sons. The really daft thing is that by the time Henry married Anne, Mary was 16 - the same age Catherine was when she married Arthur. If Henry had found her a husband, he could have had a legitimate grandson the same age as Elizabeth. OK, Mary wasn't able to have children when she married Philip, but maybe if she hadn't had such a difficult life her health would've been better, and she'd have had more chance of having children at 16 than in her late 30s anyway. But Henry decided she was illegitimate, and threw away his chance of having a grandson as heir.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:29 AM
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The Tudors had a lot of bad luck with sons! I understand Henry not wanting to leave the throne to his nephew James of Scotland because of the bad feeling between England and Scotland at the time, but his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy died fairly young, and although he was married he had no children, and his sister Mary's son (Lady Jane Grey's uncle), who would have been a better bet as he was legitimate and not linked to any foreign power, also died young. His niece Frances Grey née Brandon had no surviving sons either, and when his sister Margaret remarried she had a daughter, Margaret, by her second marriage but no sons. The really daft thing is that by the time Henry married Anne, Mary was 16 - the same age Catherine was when she married Arthur. If Henry had found her a husband, he could have had a legitimate grandson the same age as Elizabeth. OK, Mary wasn't able to have children when she married Philip, but maybe if she hadn't had such a difficult life her health would've been better, and she'd have had more chance of having children at 16 than in her late 30s anyway. But Henry decided she was illegitimate, and threw away his chance of having a grandson as heir.
Probably Henry didn't want her to marry abroad and didn't want to "raise" a rival in his son-in-law.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:54 PM
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Henry actually entered into various talks about marrying Mary off, he just never followed through with the contracts. His focus seems to have been more on ensuring the birth of his son instead of a son through his daughter's line. He succeeded in marrying his illegitimate son off (who likely would have inherited had he survived), but not his daughter.

I think part of the reasoning behind Mary's lack of a marriage is more that Henry's alliances (and friends) were constantly changing. So he would make a contract with the King of France only to have that alliance end, so he would make a contract with Spain.
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  #570  
Old 04-03-2013, 07:40 PM
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Yes.... as I recall Mary was betrothed to the Dauphin of France for some time until Franco-Anglo relations cooled.


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  #571  
Old 04-03-2013, 08:09 PM
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Mary had a number of potential suitors. As the eldest daughter of Henry VIII, she was always a very desirable bride, even after Edward was born.

When Mary was only two, she was indeed (informally) betrothed the the French Dauphin (the future Francis III, Duke of Brittany). The marriage contract was annulled after three years. At the age of six, she was betrothed to marry her cousin, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (she would later marry his son, Philip II of Spain), but nothing came of that either: this time, the contract was broken by Charles with Henry's permission. The possibility of a French alliance then resurfaced, only this time Mary's "groom" was the father of her former one - Francis I. Another candidate was Francis I's second surviving son, Henry, Duke of Orleans (future Henry II of France), but again, the plans never materialised. Among other possible candidates for marriage were the Duke of Bavaria and the Duke of Cleves (the latter, was for political reasons but instead of marrying of Mary to the Duke, Henry married the Duke's sister, Anne of Cleves).

At one time, Reginald Pole's name was mentioned; Pole was the son of the Countess of Salisbury (Mary's confidant later beheaded by Henry VIII). He had more than a drop of royal blood in his veins as well: his maternal grandfather was George Plantagenet, 1st Duke of Clarence - brother to Edward IV and Richard III, while his maternal grandmother was the daughter of Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick (who, incidentally, had exactly the same claims to the Throne as Henry VIII's father, Henry VII: Warwick was a great-grandson of John of Gaunt (third surviving son of Edward III) though the illegitimate Beaufort line.
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  #572  
Old 04-03-2013, 11:16 PM
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What male relative could have inherited through a female line? Henry's sisters? His aunts?
Also I don't believe Henry wasn't to fond of his sisters descendants in Scotland.
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  #573  
Old 04-04-2013, 02:56 AM
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The children of Henry's sisters wouldn't have actually qualified as being heirs due to the fact that they were all either female (and without living sons) or didn't out live Henry himself.

However, Henry's nephew, James V of Scotland, did have a number of illegitimate sons who outlived Henry. As Henry's claim itself descends through an illegitimate line (Henry's great-great grandfather, John Beaufort, was an illegitimately born son of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford) and a female line (his grandmother, Margaret Beaufort, was the granddaughter of the already mentioned John Beaufort), it stands to reason that Henry's heir could have been an illegitimately born son through a female line.

Through this, Henry's heir could have been Adam Stewart (died 1575), James Stewart (c. 1529-57), Robert Stewart (1533-1593), John Stewart (c. 1531-1563), or James Stewart (c. 1531-1570). All of these Stewarts were acknowledged children, and their claim to inherit the throne is only enhanced by the fact that Henry had considered making his illegitimate son, Henry FitzRoy, his heir prior to FitzRoy's death. Alternatively, one of the Stewarts could have married either Mary or Elizabeth, thus ensuring that the Tudor line still continue, if under a different name.
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  #574  
Old 04-04-2013, 04:24 AM
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Which it does through Henry's sister and her line on the throne of Scotland and then Hannover.
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  #575  
Old 04-04-2013, 04:29 AM
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Which it does through Henry's sister and her line on the throne of Scotland and then Hannover.
Oh, totally. My response there was not to say that the line today isn't descended from Henry VII through a female line, it was more trying to provide potential alternative male heirs that would have been contemporary to Henry VIII (fitting with the then existing idea that women could not inherit, so who would have been the best heir had Edward not existed). The answer is that Edward was the only legitimately born, surviving male heir to the Tudor claim through any of Henry VII's children, but James V of Scotland had a number of bastards who could have been put forth as possible heirs had Mary and Elizabeth been deemed uncapable of ruling due to their gender.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:39 AM
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Mary had a number of potential suitors. As the eldest daughter of Henry VIII, she was always a very desirable bride, even after Edward was born.

When Mary was only two, she was indeed (informally) bethroed the the French Dauphin (the future Francis II, first husband of Mary, Queen of Scots).
Francis II wasn't born until 1544 so it wasn't him.It was the Dauphin Francis,Duke of Brittany,the eldest son of Francis I and Queen Claude.

Francis III, Duke of Brittany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-04-2013, 02:54 PM
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Francis II wasn't born until 1544 so it wasn't him.It was the Dauphin Francis,Duke of Brittany,the eldest son of Francis I and Queen Claude.

Francis III, Duke of Brittany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You are absolutely right; my apologies for the mistake. I momentarily confused the eldest sons of Francis I and Henry II.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:04 PM
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What male relative could have inherited through a female line? Henry's sisters? His aunts?
Also I don't believe Henry wasn't to fond of his sisters descendants in Scotland.
England never had Salic laws, meaning females could ascend to the Throne, including Henry's sisters and their descendants. His aunts couldn't though because Henry VII had no sisters and the siblings of his mother, Elizabeth of York were not included in the line of succession (even though they were the Yorkist heirs and had much more solid rights to the Throne than the Tudor line).
Henry VIII was quite fond of Margaret Tudor. He specifically barred the Stuart line from ascending to the Throne (the Third Succession Act) not because he didn't like them, but because they belonged to a royal family of a foreign country, and he wasn't keen for a foreign royal house to reign in England.

The Line of Succession established by the Third Succession Act (established by Henry and reinforced by an Act of Parliament) had the following form:
- Prince Edward (future Edward VI) and his descendants in order of primogeniture.
- The Lady Mary (future Mary I) and her descendants in order of primogeniture.
- The Lady Elizabeth (future Elizabeth I) and her descendants in order of primogeniture.
- Frances Grey (elder daughter of Mary Tudor, Queen of France - Henry VIII's younger sister) and her descendants in order of primogeniture.
- Eleanor Clifford (younger daughter of Mary Tudor, Queen of France - Henry VIII's younger sister) and her descendants in order of primogeniture.

By the time of Elizabeth I's death, the rightful heiress to the Throne as per the Third Succession Act was Lady Anne Stanley - a descendant of Eleanor Clifford. However, she was bypassed in favour of James VI of Scotland who, according to the same Act, technically had no rights to the Throne at all. Nevertheless, he was the closest male relative of Elizabeth I and named as a successor by the Queen, so no one seriously contested that succession, and certainly not Lady Anne.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:05 PM
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Seriously people we don't need the entire Tudor history. My question can not include Edward or Elizabeth. If Anne Boleyn never happened and Henry stayed with KoA with only the one daughter; what male relative could succeed him AND could do it w/o a fight?
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:22 PM
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Seriously people we don't need the entire Tudor history. My question can not include Edward or Elizabeth. If Anne Boleyn never happened and Henry stayed with KoA with only the one daughter; what male relative could succeed him AND could do it w/o a fight?
There are two lines - no without a fight here. One is that Henry's illegitimate son, Henry FitzRoy, could have been named heir (this was actually considered). The other is that Henry's nephew through his sister Margaret, James V of Scotland, could have been named heir (ultimately, it was through this line that Elizabeth's heir came).

Unfortunately, neither FitzRoy nor James survived Henry. The only male heir left would have been one of James' illegitimate sons. At Henry's death, Edward was the only surviving male descendant of Henry VII.
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