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  #521  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:32 AM
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Yes, very differently - and quite definitely!
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  #522  
Old 08-16-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by IloveCP View Post
I just learned that Catherine Howard and Anne Boleyn were first cousins.Does anyone know what kinda relationship they had?Were they close or did they never see each other?
There were at least 17 years between the birth of Anne Boleyn and the birth of Catherine Howard, so I doubt they had any relationship at all.

Anne's father was a rising star at Henry's court for many years, while Catherine's father was a third son who doesn't seem to have shared Henry VIII's favor as his elder brothers did, and was always in debt - though he married three times to women who appear to have been well-connected.

Anne completed her education in France and didn't return to England until 1522, four years after Catherine was born. After she returned to England, she spent most of her time at court, while Catherine was reared in the household of her step-grandmother, the Duchess of Norfolk, at Lambeth and/or Horsham.

The Duchess was often at court herself, and seems to have taken little interest in any of the many wards in her care. Catherine Howard did not come to court until she was made a lady-in-waiting to Anne of Cleves.
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  #523  
Old 08-20-2011, 03:43 PM
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Fascinating hypotheses about RH factors and syphilis. If Anne was RH- and Henry had two +'s, then yes, every child after the first would have died without modern medical treatment.

Also, if Henry gave Jane syphilis, and Edward had late congenital syphilis (the kind that has fewer or no symptoms at birth) or even early congenital syphilis, that could account for his early death (although usually, children with late congenital syphilis die between 7 and 11). But, I read that the usual take that Edward was a sickly boy are wrong - and that he merely had one fever (that quartan fever - which I always thought was malaria, but where would he get that?) and then various small illnesses and poor eyesight. So I guess I can't blame Henry for Edward's death at 15. Sounds like TB, maybe - but hard to say.
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  #524  
Old 08-21-2011, 05:00 PM
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Im sure Henry knew that Catherine is closely related to Anne.If he did then Im shocked since he hated Anne and did'nt mind marrying a close relative of her's.
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  #525  
Old 08-22-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IloveCP View Post
Im sure Henry knew that Catherine is closely related to Anne.If he did then Im shocked since he hated Anne and did'nt mind marrying a close relative of her's.
Henry would not have been unaware of the familial relationship between Anne and Catherine.. but by the time he met Miss Howard, Anne Boleyn had been dead for several years.

The Howard family had tasted what royal influence could bring them, with Mary and Anne Boleyn, and were eager to place another Howard in the king's path. She was young and pretty and appealing to the king's ego.

I doubt he cared at all that she was Anne's cousin.. no more than he cared that Anne was Mary's sister when he decided to discard one for the other.
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  #526  
Old 08-22-2011, 09:42 AM
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Also - for anyone who is interested - Alison Weir's new biography about Mary Boleyn will be coming out in October
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  #527  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine View Post
Also - for anyone who is interested - Alison Weir's new biography about Mary Boleyn will be coming out in October
Thanks for the heads up! I can't wait to see her take on Mary. She's a fantastic author who does some detailed research. Hopefully she will put to rest some murky facts (i.e. was Harry the father of Mary's oldest son/daughter).

And lets not forget that Anne, Mary and Catherine Howard weren't the only Howard girls thrown at Harry. Didn't he also have a relationship with another cousin, Madge Shelton? Talk about divine rights.
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  #528  
Old 08-22-2011, 11:08 AM
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Madge Shelton was reputed to be Henry's mistress.. but she wasn't a Howard. Her mother was another Anne Boleyn and the sister of Thomas, the Queen's father.

It has been established pretty conclusively that Catherine Carey was the eldest child, and she is considered by most researchers to have been Henry's daughter.

The murky facts concern whether or not Henry Carey was his son. I do hope Weir will present something new about his parentage.
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  #529  
Old 08-24-2011, 01:50 AM
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Here is more info on the new Mary book:

News - Alison Weir
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  #530  
Old 08-24-2011, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
...She's a fantastic author who does some detailed research.
I just checked and Amazon has this book already. Listed pub date as 4 august this year. same book I think. So I ordered it.
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  #531  
Old 08-25-2011, 04:04 AM
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I just checked and Amazon has this book already. Listed pub date as 4 august this year. same book I think. So I ordered it.
Thanks Lady Deborah.. I found the same book at Amazon.de and ordered it this morning. Mary Boleyn: The Great and Infamous Whore

The hardback due out in October is called Mary Boleyn: The Mistress of Kings but is most likely the same book, given the release dates.. let's hope so anyway
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Ś i vethed...nā i onnad. Minlū pedich nin i aur hen telitha. - Arwen & Aragorn, The Lord of the Rings
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  #532  
Old 08-25-2011, 07:44 AM
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What an interesting title! Poor Mary!
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  #533  
Old 08-25-2011, 08:52 AM
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Medieval manuscripts shine a light on royal family - Telegraph
These beautifully decorated works were collected by the kings and queens of England between the ninth and 16th centuries. The vibrant colours have been preserved despite the passing of time and "will debunk the myth that these were 'the Dark Ages'," according to the exhibition's curator, Dr Scot McKendrick.

Examples include The Shrewsbury Book, a wedding gift for Margaret of Ajnou and Henry VI in 1445, and a 14th century scroll depicting a royal family tree. Henry VIII's velvet-bound Psalter is also among the exhibits.
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  #534  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:30 PM
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There was a piece shown during the Health Watch segment of my local news, and no idea where they got it from, the other night and was about a History Professor at McGill IIRC who is starting a new paper about Henry VIII and the possiblity of the King being a sufferer of Post Concussion Syndrome. He's a huge hockey fan, and if you're a huge fan like the both of us are, then you're more than a bit concerned about the impact of this Syndome on the players it's been diagnoised in.

For example, the best player in the game today, Sidney Crosby and hero of the Gold Medal Game for Canada at the Vancouver Olympics last year, hasn't played since January when he was blind sided during the Annual New Year's Outdoor Game in Pittsburgh. It was looking good in his Recovery and he'd been back on the ice doing full workouts, but announced last week he's had a setback.

And that's only one example from the Hockey World. I also know this Syndome is running rampant in the American Football World too. The worst case scenario are vicious changes of mood/personality, headaches, the inablity to handle bright light, nausea, vertigo and that's only a few of the symptoms. A complete change of personality, instead of just switches that take place for short periods of time, have also happened to those sufferering from this.

Sound familiar?

Now, we know Henry took a pretty hard knock w/that jousting accident. He was unconcious for a pretty long period of time, not to mention the famous leg injury. Now that accident and the leg injury has always been used as the "starting point" where Henry's mood and/or personality began to change. We also know he suffered from pretty vicious headaches after that point. So what if the leg injury was only one of the factors that accident created? What if he also sufferered from Post Concussion Syndome?

It does fit when you think of it.

Just throwing that out there for discussion.

Oh and a friend of ours from New York State and his wife are up for the Summer this year. We look after their camp/cabin when they're gone the rest of the year and in return, they bring us presents, which the number of stuff they bring us (and the fact they're now bringing me Lord of the Rings stuff when I never asked them to) is just a bit much. I mean...It would be one thing if they brought me one or two Royalty books, but the usual number is anywhere from Seventy to Ninety a year.

He's an Antique Dealer, so...Anyway, it's just a bit too much if that makes any sense. Not that I'm not grateful, but it is just a bit much. That's not even touching on the stuff he brings my Parents. Anyway...

In this year's "Delivery" was Alison Weir's Henry VIII and His Six Wives. Mom usually gathers up the books and takes them out to the storage area above our Garage, so I've got to grab what looks interesting before that happens. :oD I can't wait to get started on it. I've heard so much of this book and I have another one of Weir's other Tudor books thanks to Phil and that was excellent. I'm reading Lt General Romeo Dallaire's Shake Hands With The Devil at the moment, but when that's done w/, I'll be "visiting" Tudor England again. :oD

Will have to keep an eye out for that Mary Boleyn book of hers. I have a Birthday coming up in October, so.... ;o)
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  #535  
Old 08-29-2011, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HM Queen Catherine
Also - for anyone who is interested - Alison Weir's new biography about Mary Boleyn will be coming out in October
I want that book and know if Henry and Catherine Carey were really the king's bastard children
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  #536  
Old 09-02-2011, 10:08 AM
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That post concussion syndrome idea makes a lot of sense! I would in no way call myself a Tudor
Scholar. My
Period
Is prior to that. However I am avidly interested in the Tudors and have read
Much of the literature and attendant fiction.
That having been said Henry was by all accounts a very active
Athletic young man. It is not unlikely that a series of blows
Falls etc may have weakened him so that a major episode was enough to push him into full blown syndrome? I have also wondered if
Migraines were not caused in part by
Cranial fracture and possible subdural haematoma that may have healed( stopped
Bleeding) and then ruptured again. But the
Pressure would always
Cause
Pain?
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  #537  
Old 09-14-2011, 05:24 PM
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Ok, so I've thoroughly enjoyed the new book about Mary Boleyn!

The conclusions drawn about her by Alison Weir are plausible and make sense to me.. and a few of her insights are not only surprising, but are things I had not thought of before..

I'm a little disappointed with what Weir has to say regarding Catherine and Henry Carey.. because I feel that she hasn't really contributed anything new as far as their parentage.. at least not anything I didn't already know. Anyone looking for explosive or conclusive evidence in that regard will not find it in this book, but she does offer her opinion based on her research, which I do find valuable given her expertise.

What I did find interesting is her evaluation of Henry VIII's other supposed offspring.. she gives biographical outlines and conclusions on the claims of Richard Edwardes, Sir John Perrot, Ethelreda Malte and a few others. So I am satisfied that my own research into these people coincides with what she has written.

As a direct descendant of both Mary Boleyn and Catherine Carey, I am so pleased and grateful to finally have a complete book about Mary's life.. and I hope that her tarnished reputation will finally be exonerated.. because the truth is, Mary Boleyn was none of the things history has made her out to be..

She was not infamous in her lifetime.. and she wasn't a notorious whore either. Alison Weir does a very good job of exposing the inaccuracies of previous historians regarding Mary, and she's done an excellent job in expelling some of the misconceptions surrounding her life.

Two thumbs up.
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  #538  
Old 12-26-2011, 03:24 PM
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I've been reading about the dissolution of monasteries under Henry, and pondering whether he actually intended the desecration of tombs, etc. It happened such a long time ago, but when I read about what was lost, especially at Glastonbury, it still breaks my heart. Henry does not seem to be anti-religion, and in fact, might not have known what he unleashed (in terms of fortune-hunters and worse). I am assuming the tombs were desecrated under the belief that treasure might be found (but why destroy an entire tomb??) While we usually date the Renaissance back to Henry VIII, there's still a lot of darkness in his reign. (Although in France, tomb desecration became practically a national pastime during both the Revolution and the Commune periods).

Does anyone know of any reading that can be done about the kinds of people who ended up destroying the monasteries? Was it always actual minions of Henry VIII or did people just go "freelance" once they realized the King was shutting down the monasteries?
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  #539  
Old 12-26-2011, 07:17 PM
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I think Anne of Cleves was in a way unique among Henry's wives.She managed to get a generous settlement after the marriage was annulled and she didn't answer to any male authority expect the king.

She occupied a nearly fantastic place in English society from those hard times , unmarried but wealthy and independent. She was not an heiress but still honored as a royal. She answered to no male authority but that of the king, and he did not choose to trouble her.
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:22 PM
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Henry's wives who were his subjects were in danger of being killed by him; but the foreign wives, Anne of Cleves and Katharine of Aragon, would be harder if not nearly impossible to kill. The reason Anne was treated so much better than Katharine was because she did not fight the king when he wanted to divorce her unlike Katharine who made his life miserable. Because Katharine didn't comply Henry made her suffer, because Anne did comply he rewarded her greatly.
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