Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[CyrilVladisla]

Princess Mary was the only child of King Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon to survive infancy.
Henry was determined to have a son.
Henry divorced Queen Catherine.
The rest is English history.
​

10 things you (probably) didn’t know about Anne Boleyn

Ten surprising facts about Anne Boleyn | History Extra

I like the fact that Anne could have been an English countess.
True, Countess Anne is not as fancy as Queen Anne. True, there would not be Queen Elizabeth I, daughter of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn.
However, Countess Anne might have lived a lot longer than Queen Anne.
​

 

[Jacknch]

Hmm, miscarriages and only daughters doesn't make someone cursed even in Henry VIII's time. More likely his poor wives were cursed for ever marrying him.

 

[Fox]

The author Philippa Gregory also mentions a curse from the mother of Elizabeth Woodville as I remember.

 

[Tilia C.]

The author Philippa Gregory also mentions a curse from the mother of Elizabeth Woodville as I remember.

Yes, she does. But she is writing fiction, of course. You can easily get away with putting a bit of the phantasy into a novel (Ms Rowling got away with quite a bit of that, and didn't we all enjoy it?) Even though Philippa Gregory is a Historian and keeps her novels close to historical facts, there is a lot that must be made up, so that there are no gaps in the story. So I would say that perfectly ok to put supernatural stuff into fiction, but it has to be kept out of historical science.

 

[Fox]

Yes it is fiction, and I can recommend her books. Especially "The Queens fool".

 

[Tilia C.]

Yes it is fiction, and I can recommend her books. Especially "The Queens fool".

Thanks for the recommendation. I enjoyed her Cousin's War serious very much. So I think I'll read "The Queens fool".

 

[Fox]

And thanks from me as well. I'll certainly read Cousin´s War , I hope it is translated to danish.

 

[An Ard Ri]

10 things you (probably) didn’t know about Anne Boleyn

Ten surprising facts about Anne Boleyn | History Extra

 

[An Ard Ri]

Anne Boleyn had Irish roots via her father ,who's mother Lady Margaret Butler was the daughter of the Irish Earl of Ormonde.

Lady Margaret Butler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Pranter]

I find that Sharon K Penman and Elizabeth Chadwick to do a much better job writing about the various royals than Phillipa Gregory who to me seems to want to focus on the tabloid type details.

LaRae

 

[An Ard Ri]

Did Henry VIII love his last wife Katherine Parr?

Tudor romance: Did Henry VIII love his last wife Katherine Parr? | History Extra

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Did Henry VIII love his last wife Katherine Parr?

Tudor romance: Did Henry VIII love his last wife Katherine Parr? | History Extra

The article mentioned that Queen Katherine's ladies were targeted in the search for banned books.
It makes you wonder if anyone warned the Queen in advance.
What did she hide in her book collection?
How often does a Queen change locks?
Shall we write to Ann Landers for the answers?
​

 

[Moonmaiden23]

My personal belief is that Henry was done with passion and romance by the time he married Katherine Parr. His "Kate" was primarily a nurse and companion for him and he appreciated her for that. He was definitely fond of her.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The article mentioned that Queen Katherine's ladies were targeted in the search for banned books.
It makes you wonder if anyone warned the Queen in advance.
What did she hide in her book collection?
How often does a Queen change locks?
Shall we write to Ann Landers for the answers?
​

It was a dangerous time to be Henry's wife with the court machinations of both Catholic and Protestant courtiers,as Catherine Parr was sympathetic towards the Reformers she came under the deep suspicions of the Catholics including the powerful Bishop, Stephen Gardiner.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

The article mentioned that Queen Katherine's ladies were targeted in the search for banned books.
It makes you wonder if anyone warned the Queen in advance.
What did she hide in her book collection?
How often does a Queen change locks?
Shall we write to Ann Landers for the answers?

She was warned in advance. A copy of the warrant for her arrest was shown to one of her servants. Some people believe that Henry arranged this warning.

When Henry decided to get rid of one of his wives or advisers, he had a habit of cutting off all contact with them shortly before they were arrested. That didn't happen in Catherine Parr's case. He signed a warrant for her arrest but stuck around and, some people believe, made sure she was aware of it. After a brief panic, Catherine rose to the occasion and saved her life by convincing the King of her loyalty and obedience.

 

[Ish]

She was warned in advance. A copy of the warrant for her arrest was shown to one of her servants. Some people believe that Henry arranged this warning.

When Henry decided to get rid of one of his wives or advisers, he had a habit of cutting off all contact with them shortly before they were arrested. That didn't happen in Catherine Parr's case. He signed a warrant for her arrest but stuck around and, some people believe, made sure she was aware of it. After a brief panic, Catherine rose to the occasion and saved her life by convincing the King of her loyalty and obedience.

That's an interesting difference....

I wonder if that means that Henry wanted to be convinced of her loyalty.

In the case of Catherine of Aragon, his cutting her off was likely a long time coming, while Anne Boleyn was much quicker but at the same time really something that was bound to happen from the start - the way Anne came into power gave her no manoeuvring room once she failed to meet her end of the deal, so to speak. She and Katherine Howard also brought shame to Henry as well through the rumours of their affairs, giving him need to act fast. It could be said that CA shamed him as well in a much different way, explaining (but in no way justifying) his treatment of her. And as for Anne of Cleeves... Well, that whole marriage was pretty much over before it had begun, although if memory serves Henry was good to her post-divorce.

In Katherine Parr's case things were completely different though. The marriage was longer than that with AC and didn't have the history or problems that occurred in the CA marriage. Nor did she have an affair, or allegations of an affair, like AB and KH, but the arrest warrant had just as much likelihood of ending with her head and body being permanently separated. I'd argue that with the exception of Jane, KP was probably Henry's best marriage, and I wouldn't be surprised if near the end of both the marriage and his life he was aware of that.

 

[Mirabel]

My personal belief is that Henry was done with passion and romance by the time he married Katherine Parr. His "Kate" was primarily a nurse and companion for him and he appreciated her for that. He was definitely fond of her.

Maybe.
But, imo, she was very lucky that Henry died when he did.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I agree Mirabel. I think Henry would have even eventually grown tired of Jane Seymour, regardless of the fact that she'd born him a legitimate male heir.

 

[Curryong]

I think Henry was fond of Katherine and knew that on the whole she was a very good wife to him. She was however so passionate about the Protestant Reformation that she had taken to contradicting him in public on matters of theology, possibly without even thinking about it; just expressing her views. Quite a dangerous thing to do with a sovereign like Henry VIII.

Twenty years before the king may very well have had her head off! However, though he was irritable about her presumption I think he used that warrant as a tug on the chain, a call to Katherine to come to heel, or else. She was a sensible woman and obeyed the signal!

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I found this article from The Guardian about a new portrait that has been found at Nidd Hall, which is believed to be of Anne Boleyn. At first researchers thought it was of Jane Seymour, however they later discovered that the lady in the portrait was wearing jewellery that belonged to Anne Boleyn: Possible Anne Boleyn portrait found using facial recognition software | Science | The Guardian

Personally, I think the portrait reminds of of this one of Mary Boleyn. I thought the article was fascinating.

 

[Curryong]

Wasn't Mary a blonde? She was much more voluptuous-looking than her sister!

 

[US Royal Watcher]

My personal belief is that Henry was done with passion and romance by the time he married Katherine Parr. His "Kate" was primarily a nurse and companion for him and he appreciated her for that. He was definitely fond of her.

I agree but I think there was another consideration: Katherine Parr had no children even though she had been married twice before. I suspect Henry was struggling with impotency by the time of the marriage and was afraid he couldn't father anymore children (although he certainly would have been thrilled with another son). He would infinitely preferred for people to believe that she was infertile rather than he was impotent.

I agree Mirabel. I think Henry would have even eventually grown tired of Jane Seymour, regardless of the fact that she'd born him a legitimate male heir.

Again, I agree. He eventually would have tired of Jane (he probably had at least one affair while she was pregnant) but she would have survived no matter what. Henry would never have called the legitimacy of their marriage into question. It would have been like most royal marriage of the time, Henry would have had his outside "interests" and he and Jane would have made joint appearances whenever required.

Similarly, I don't think Henry would have annulled his marriage to Catherine of Aragon if any of her sons had lived.--regardless of how much he wanted Anne Boleyn. Actually, I doubt Anne Boleyn would have even suggested that Henry divorce Catherine of Aragon. She, like her sister Mary, would have become his mistress and accepted whatever favors he gave her.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Wasn't Mary a blonde? She was much more voluptuous-looking than her sister!

Yes, Mary was blonde whilst Anne had darker hair, but I think the portrait gives off a similar feel/look to the one of Mary. However, after looking at the photos of the commemorative coin (even though it has faded) I can see a lot of similarities between that and the original portrait. It's a fascinating find.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Earliest Painting of Henry VIII discovered at the National Library of Wales

Earliest Painting of Henry VIII discovered at the National Library of Wales

 

[Tiggersk8]

Has anyone else downloaded Karliene's Album called The Ballad of Anne Boleyn over at iTunes? She's a YouTube artist whose voice is just gorgeous and I discovered through her adaptations and original works from both Game of Thrones and LOTR. I really have enjoyed what she's come up w/to try and tell Anne's story through song. My favourite track of the entire thing is Elizabeth's Lullaby and I can't seem to stop listening to it. Just like any Mother, it's Anne hoping and telling what she dreams life has in store for her little girl and very beautiful.

I don't know the artist personally, so this really is just trying to spread the word to fellow Tudor/Anne Boleyn fans.


Sent from my iPad using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[Curryong]

This is the presumed image of the young Henry mourning his mother.

BBC News - Young Henry VIII revealed at National Library of Wales

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I've been thinking about the king's tendency to cut off all contact with people before he had them arrested. He didn't do so with Catherine Parr, but there was another interesting deviation: the king went to the May Day joust with Henry Norris and questioned him before having him arrested.

I've never believed that Anne Boleyn was stupid enough to have an affair and she didn't confess, even to save her soul. The only one of her lovers who confessed was Smeaton, who, if he wasn't actually tortured, was probably threatened with it.

Norris was very powerful, and I always assumed that Cromwell implicated Norris because Cromwell wanted him out of the way. But Henry's interrogation of Norris sounds like the behavior a husband who truly believed his wife was having an affair. Could there have been some basis to the charges regarding Norris?

 

[Curryong]

Wasn't there a flirtatious conversation between Anne and Norris some time before, in which Anne had asked about Norris's delayed marriage and referred jokingly to Henry's possible death? Norris was alarmed, apparently, by the turn of the conversation and moved away, but disastrously for them both, it had been overheard.

Anne, brought up in the French Court, was always more free and easy in her social relations with the gentlemen of Henry's household.

I don't beieve that Norris had been Anne's lover, but possibly the two may have had a conversation or two loaded with sexual innuendo.

With Henry irritated by Anne, perhaps disenchanted by his marriage and lack of a male heir, and spurred by 'evidence collected by Cromwell, that may have been enough.

Norris was powerful and had been the King's close friend for many years, but he was also allied to the Boleyn faction that Cromwell was determined to destroy.

I'm always amazed that anyone at court could take such chances, knowing Henry's character.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Wasn't there a flirtatious conversation between Anne and Norris some time before, in which Anne had asked about Norris's delayed marriage and referred jokingly to Henry's possible death? Norris was alarmed, apparently, by the turn of the conversation and moved away, but disastrously for them both, it had been overheard.

Anne, brought up in the French Court, was always more free and easy in her social relations with the gentlemen of Henry's household.

I don't beieve that Norris had been Anne's lover, but possibly the two may have had a conversation or two loaded with sexual innuendo.

With Henry irritated by Anne, perhaps disenchanted by his marriage and lack of a male heir, and spurred by 'evidence collected by Cromwell, that may have been enough.

Norris was powerful and had been the King's close friend for many years, but he was also allied to the Boleyn faction that Cromwell was determined to destroy.

I'm always amazed that anyone at court could take such chances, knowing Henry's character.

Thank you for reminding me about the conversation between Anne and Norris. There was a similar conversation that proved to be Weston's undoing.

Anne was indiscrete at times but she was very familiar with the French court where this type of flirtatious behavior was common. I think that she understood that she was in a precarious situation after her miscarriage but she seemed to assume that Henry would simply annul the marriage when he wanted out.

As for the men, flirting with the Anne was obviously dangerous in hindsight, but I wonder if it common in court. After all, flattering the queen was a way to get into her good graces. Did men flirt or flatter Catherine of Aragon in the same way?

I can understand why the men around Anne Boleyn may have been a little reckless at times--especially since I think they were innocent--but the real prize for stupidity goes to Francis Dereham. Culpepper and Catherine tie for runner up because they apparently fell in love, which can make people take chances, while Dereham deliberately choose to take employment with Catherine, even though he knew there were people who were aware of their previous liaisons.

 

[Curryong]

Dereham certainly didn't help when he stated that Culpepper had succeeded himself in the Queen's affections!

I'm afraid I agree with the traditional view of Catherine Howard as a silly and incredibly reckless girl. She was very young of course, and that excuses her to a certain extent. She was tied to an old man who wouldn't have attracted her physically at all, probably.

From her early teens she was used to flirting, not in the French courtly fashion, but in more basic terms, with young males only a little older than herself. In one way her behaviour as Queen is understandable, (and I don't believe that she committed adultery), in another it is breathtaking in its foolhardiness.

I tend to think Catherine Howard had to die simply because she had made a fool of an ageing man. Henry's ego was damaged by Catherine's behaviour, there is no doubt of it, and so, IMO, she and her 'lovers' had to pay.

As for Katherine of Aragon and flirtation from the courtiers, somehow I just can't see it. Henry was in love with her in the early years and she with him, plus I believe Katherine was a serious-minded woman. She wasn't brought up in that rather lighthearted French manner and she would have been bewildered I think, by the arts of flirtation that Anne B. possessed, which kept Henry panting for her all those years!