Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Good lord do I have to write in bold TO PRETEND. This is not a historical discussion, this is hypothetical based in real people.
Thank you Ish for your reply and for taking the time to even attempt to delve trough my rambling thoughts. You are right, what kind of life is the first wife, Katharine fighting for and why? When her husband blatantly makes it clear he doesn't want her. And the younger woman should definitely think about what will happen to her when she starts to age.
I just have this image of Katharine and Anne in a room alone facing each other and they are both laying it out on the table. Bottom line wife 1 won't declare herself a who---, potential wife 2 won't allow herself to become one.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Which one of us was that directed at?

Not you Ish my bad.

 

[Ish]

I actually really liked the hypothetical.

I think in the hypothetical we have to feel for both, but in the grander scheme of it we should feel for all 3. The whole thing was very political and none of them can be simplified easily into the roles of the jilted wife, the devious mistress, or the sexist and philandering husband - although, I think that's how they're often portrayed. In breaking it down to a more hypothetical context we're able to look at the 3 of them without many of the usual biases that we have.

 

[Ish]

Not you Ish my bad.

Thanks. I figured it out when you edited your post, that's why I deleted mine.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

It's an interesting question, but I think we do need to clarify that we are discussing an idealized version of Anne.

Regardless, I am least sympathetic to Anne. Even if she was a virgin in love, he was a married man and she knew it. I don't know if her actual birth date is known, but she was in her twenties when she started her pursuit of Henry.

Catherine is more sympathetic. Not only was she concerned about her daughter's status, she was very religious and she truly believed her marriage was valid. Catherine would have been committing a serious sin if she had falsely sworn that her marriage was invalid. She would have been also allowing Henry to commit bigamy, which would have meant that any children of Henry's subsequent marriage should not have been eligible for the throne because they were illegitimate.

I understand Henry's need for a male heir and his attitude towards women has to be understood in the context of the times. His concern for religious piety, however, was selective--adultery was a sin in the 1500s, too.

It is interesting that Henry decided that his lack of a son was God's punishment for marrying his brother's wife, rather than payback for all his extramarital affairs. He also didn't seem to consider that Anne Boleyn's failure to produce a son may have been a demonstration of God's displeasure over Henry's break with the Catholic church and the pillaging of the monasteries.

 

[AdmirerUS]

And I have the least sympathy for Henry.

Why do we tend to endlessly weigh one woman against another without the spotlight on the guy?

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?

 

[US Royal Watcher]

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?

I don't think Henry ever accepted responsibility for his own actions.

 

[Mirabel]

You are right, what kind of life is the first wife, Katharine fighting for and why?

I don't think Katharine was fighting for her own life; she was fighting for her daughter, and her God.
She could have given in, come to an arrangement with Henry; that is what Anne of Cleeves did, and she had quite a comfortable life.

But if she did, she knew Mary would be out of the line of succession, and Henry would disregard the Pope and proclaim himself head of the Church.
Yes, these things happened anyway, but Katharine did not collude in them, she kept her sense of integrity.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

The question might be, at what point in his life did Henry accept responsibility for his own actions?

Um....never.
As for Henry not thinking his lack of a son was due to his cheating, many kings cheated on their wives and they still had sons. Also one of Henry's affairs produced a son. I'm not excusing his behavior but after Fitzroy was born I can understand how Henry would come to the conclusion that his lack of a legitimate male heir wasn't his fault.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

To clarify, I am not sympathetic to Henry taking a mistress (or several), but I am sympathetic about his desire for a son. It is not like he just wanted someone to carry his name or to prove his manhood (although that was part of it), but he really believed he needed a male heir for England's safety and stability.

XeniaCasaraghi, I agree with you that Henry probably viewed Henry Fitzroy's survival as proof that the lack of legitimate male heirs was not his fault, but I'm not sure that it would have been any different if Fitzroy hadn't survived. I don't see Henry blaming himself under any circumstances.

He was desperate and annulling his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was something he could do. He hoped that Catherine would simply step aside and go into a nunnery and let him provide England with a male heir.

 

[Ish]

You kinda of have to question why Catherine wouldn't step aside.

Even if Mary was declared a bastard, Henry had shown that he would provide for his acknowledged bastards - he provided for FitzRoy.

Mary would have been removed from the line of succession, but she wouldn't have necessarily been in the succession any ways because of her gender. Henry himself established the idea that women could in fact be monarch of England, when previously it had been established that they couldn't inherit but their sons (or grandsons) could.

What's more is that Henry's own father's rule had established that men descended through illegitimate lines could come to the throne, so it was possible that Mary's (hypothetical) child could one day rule.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

You kinda of have to question why Catherine wouldn't step aside.

Even if Mary was declared a bastard, Henry had shown that he would provide for his acknowledged bastards - he provided for FitzRoy.

Mary would have been removed from the line of succession, but she wouldn't have necessarily been in the succession any ways because of her gender. Henry himself established the idea that women could in fact be monarch of England, when previously it had been established that they couldn't inherit but their sons (or grandsons) could.

What's more is that Henry's own father's rule had established that men descended through illegitimate lines could come to the throne, so it was possible that Mary's (hypothetical) child could one day rule.

Good point about the precedent set by Henry VII.

I think Catherine's reasons for not stepping aside were more religious than anything else. The problem for Henry is what Catherine was past child bearing age, so he needed a younger wife.

Catherine did not make it easy for him. He couldn't kill her but he knew many people considered any child he had with Anne illegitimate.

 

[Ish]

Good point about the precedent set by Henry VII.

I think Catherine's reasons for not stepping aside were more religious than anything else. The problem for Henry is what Catherine was past child bearing age, so he needed a younger wife.

Catherine did not make it easy for him. He couldn't kill her but he knew many people considered any child he had with Anne illegitimate.

I get that. I do think the harder she made it for him, the more vindictive he got - which he took out on her, their daughter, and even his later wives.

If we allow for the assumption that Anne didn't actually have the affairs then we could argue that the motivation in the harshness of her treatment was because Henry didn't want to repeat the mistakes of his first marriage. If we believe that Anne did have the affairs - or at least some of them - a possible motive can be that she was trying to conceive a male child by any means, to ensure that what happened to Catherine and her daughter did not happen to her and Elizabeth.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I get that. I do think the harder she made it for him, the more vindictive he got - which he took out on her, their daughter, and even his later wives.

If we allow for the assumption that Anne didn't actually have the affairs then we could argue that the motivation in the harshness of her treatment was because Henry didn't want to repeat the mistakes of his first marriage. If we believe that Anne did have the affairs - or at least some of them - a possible motive can be that she was trying to conceive a male child by any means, to ensure that what happened to Catherine and her daughter did not happen to her and Elizabeth.

As usual, very interesting. I agree with your summary of his motivations. Henry had Anne executed because it would have been inconvenient for her to be alive. Some people would have considered her Henry's true wife and it may have cast doubt on the legitimacy of subsequent children. The only way to avoid that would have been to repent and return to the Roman Catholic Church but that probably would have required him to return the money to the monasteries.

I tend to think she was innocent of the charges, but he convinced himself she was guilty because he was good at deluding himself.

 

[Ish]

As usual, very interesting. I agree with your summary of his motivations. Henry had Anne executed because it would have been inconvenient for her to be alive. Some people would have considered her Henry's true wife and it may have cast doubt on the legitimacy of subsequent children. The only way to avoid that would have been to repent and return to the Roman Catholic Church but that probably would have required him to return the money to the monasteries.

I tend to think she was innocent of the charges, but he convinced himself she was guilty because he was good at deluding himself.

Not only was he good at deluding himself, but those around him were good at spinning stories and deluding him.

The Boleyns gained a lot from their connection to the king. They also had many enemies, who wanted them gone. A dead Queen is better than a living ex-Queen.

It's also important to note that 3 thing happened in 1536. In order: Catherine of Aragon died, Anne Boleyn died, and then Henry VIII married Jane Seymour. I kind of wonder how much Catherine's death also helped to seal the fate of Anne. People were divided on which of Henry's daughters they considered legitimate; was it the first or the second marriage that was valid? With both of his first two wives dead, however, Henry was in a position where no one could question the legitimacy of the children from his third marriage.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Not only was he good at deluding himself, but those around him were good at spinning stories and deluding him.

The Boleyns gained a lot from their connection to the king. They also had many enemies, who wanted them gone. A dead Queen is better than a living ex-Queen.

It's also important to note that 3 thing happened in 1536. In order: Catherine of Aragon died, Anne Boleyn died, and then Henry VIII married Jane Seymour. I kind of wonder how much Catherine's death also helped to seal the fate of Anne. People were divided on which of Henry's daughters they considered legitimate; was it the first or the second marriage that was valid? With both of his first two wives dead, however, Henry was in a position where no one could question the legitimacy of the children from his third marriage.

It is striking how quickly Anne Boleyn fell after Catherine's death and her own miscarriage. It was about 3 months until her arrest..

 

[Ish]

It is striking how quickly Anne Boleyn fell after Catherine's death and her own miscarriage. It was about 3 months until her arrest..

It's all very timely...

January 8/9, Catherine dies
January 29, Anne miscarries
May 2, Anne is arrested
May 14, the marriage is dissolved
May 19, Anne is executed
May 30, Henry marries Jane

 

[US Royal Watcher]

It's all very timely...

January 8/9, Catherine dies
January 29, Anne miscarries
May 2, Anne is arrested
May 14, the marriage is dissolved
May 19, Anne is executed
May 30, Henry marries Jane

When I see those dates, I always wonder how Jane felt about it. I don't know if she had a real choice in the matter. If she willingly married Henry, it would lend credence to the theory that Anne was guilty of adultery. Jane was a lady in waiting and certainly heard court gossip.

She was obviously not an 'Anne fan," but to marry a man who just had his wife executed....

 

[Baroness of Books]

I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.

It's unfortunate that there aren't any letters, either from her or from one of her confidents. She probably wouldn't have confided her doubts, if she had any.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I'm sure Jane's father and brothers urged her quite vociferously to marry Henry for the family's gain, much like the Boleyns. I doubt she could have stood up against that pressure.

I often think about the six women Henry married, and I wonder which one of them truly and deeply loved him as a man.

#6 Katherine Parr was primarily nurse to an old, sick man...longing for Sir Thomas Seymour

#5 Catherine Howard...no. Just no.

#4 Anne of Cleves...eventually grew fond of her dear "Brother Henry"

#3 Jane Seymour..."Born to obey and serve"...but I don't sense any true love, much less passion for Henry

#2 Anne Boleyn was primarily driven by ambition and pride in her feelings for him, imo

#1 Katharine of Aragon. Everything I have read of her, especially her final, heartbreaking letter to him ("mine eyes desire you above all things") leads me to have the opinion that she was the only one Henry's queen's who truly loved and adored him right up to the end of her life. There is no doubt that Henry returned her love early in the marriage, but it was Anne Boleyn who was the great passion of his life, apparently.

 

[Osipi]

#1 Katharine of Aragon. Everything I have read of her, especially her final, heartbreaking letter to him ("mine eyes desire you above all things") leads me to have the opinion that she was the only one Henry's queen's who truly loved and adored him right up to the end of her life. There is no doubt that Henry returned her love early in the marriage, but it was Anne Boleyn who was the great passion of his life, apparently.

Perhaps the lucky one that got away is Catherine's lady in waiting Mary Boleyn.
She couldn't have been a choice for Henry to choose from as a future bride after his divorce to Catherine was a reality because she was also married. This kind of gives credence to the saying "Laying one's wife down for their country".

I think rather than being a great passionate love affair, Anne more or less was a challenge for Henry. She didn't give into him as easily as most women back then would have for their king. Henry had a very active libido and I'd not be surprised if that's how he looked at any woman wife or not. Part of me inclines to think that Henry married Catherine of Aragon only as what he perceived as duty his deceased brother. Funny how that "duty" became a reason why Henry believed his marriage should be annulled eh?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Osipi, I have read dozens of bios of Henry and Catherine since I was about 12, and the marriage to Catherine was a love match. By marrying his brother's pretty young widow Henry fulfilled his late father's wishes while at the same time following the dictates of his own desires at the time.

But there was no real passion and no challenge. Anne Boleyn provided both. If Catherine had mothered a son, Henry would have never left her. Except for his lack of male heirs he was quite content with the status quo.

 

[Osipi]

Osipi, I have read dozens of bios of Henry and Catherine since I was about 12, and the marriage to Catherine was a love match. By marrying his brother's pretty young widow Henry fulfilled his late father's wishes while at the same time following the dictates of his own desires at the time.

But there was no real passion and no challenge. Anne Boleyn provided both. If Catherine had mothered a son, Henry would have never left her. Except for his lack of male heirs he was quite content with the status quo.

+

Sounds like I need to do a bit of reading up on their marriage. Which book would you suggest as the best one that portrays their marriage? I'm not that literate when it comes to Henry's marriages but have really learned a lot since coming here to these forums.

 

[Baroness of Books]

Another thing is that Catherine couldn't return to Spain after Arthur's death without her dowry which Henry VII was determined to keep. He arranged for the marriage between Henry and Catherine though Henry was still too young for marriage, but then kept it in limbo for several years since he was unsure that he wanted a further alliance between England and Spain. During this time, Catherine lived in near poverty since she didn't have sufficient funds for her upkeep and Henry immediately married her upon his father's death. While he may have genuinely loved Catherine at that time, it could also be that Henry loved the chase and the more unobtainable the object, the more he was determined to get it - Anne Boleyn being the prime example.

 

[Mirabel]

I have to disagree about Jane Seymour. At the time Henry wed her, Jane was 28- which was absolutely ancient in those days. So, by marrying her, Henry took a woman who'd been resigned to spinsterhood, and largely disregarded by everyone, and made her Queen of England.

It would be odd if Jane hadn't been grateful to Henry, and terrified she would not fulfill his wishes and give him a healthy son. She did, and it cost her her life.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

+

Sounds like I need to do a bit of reading up on their marriage. Which book would you suggest as the best one that portrays their marriage? I'm not that literate when it comes to Henry's marriages but have really learned a lot since coming here to these forums.

Ooohh....that's like asking which book to read about Abe Lincoln...there is an overwhelming body of material out there!

I'd start with Antonia Fraser's "Wives of Henry VIII"...excellent! Sympathetic to each of the women.

Also Alison Weir's "The Six Wives Of Henry VIII" for the same reasons as above.

And a couple of months ago I finished up Sister Queens: The Noble Tragic Lives of Katharine of Aragon and Juana, Queen of Castile " by Julia Fox. It was incredible...in fact if you want to focus only on Katharine start with that one!

Good luck and let me know what you think...pm me!

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Another thing is that Catherine couldn't return to Spain after Arthur's death without her dowry which Henry VII was determined to keep. He arranged for the marriage between Henry and Catherine though Henry was still too young for marriage, but then kept it in limbo for several years since he was unsure that he wanted a further alliance between England and Spain. During this time, Catherine lived in near poverty since she didn't have sufficient funds for her upkeep and Henry immediately married her upon his father's death. While he may have genuinely loved Catherine at that time, it could also be that Henry loved the chase and the more unobtainable the object, the more he was determined to get it - Anne Boleyn being the prime example.

In the last two months, I read two of Alison Weir's books, Henry VIII: The King and His Court and the Six Wives of Henry VIII. I don't know whether they are the best books. Catherine of Aragon was apparently a beautiful young woman and apparently very intelligent and accomplished. I'm sure Henry was happy to marry her. The fact that Henry VII kept them apart probably did make her more desirable. I also wonder if reversing his father's decision may have added to the allure.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I have to disagree about Jane Seymour. At the time Henry wed her, Jane was 28- which was absolutely ancient in those days. So, by marrying her, Henry took a woman who'd been resigned to spinsterhood, and largely disregarded by everyone, and made her Queen of England.

It would be odd if Jane hadn't been grateful to Henry, and terrified she would not fulfill his wishes and give him a healthy son. She did, and it cost her her life.

She was older and apparently not that pretty. Kind of makes me wonder what the real attraction was. I think he wanted someone "virtuous" and humble, unlike Anne Boleyn.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Jane was older but isn't her birth date obscure as just like Anne's. Henry saw the anti Anne in Jane, blond light and quiet. I don't think Henry would ever look for an anti Jane because she didn't stir hatred in him like Anne did. The only wives I think can be said to have loved Henry was Katharine of Aragon and MAYBE Anne Boleyn.