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  #381  
Old 03-17-2010, 10:11 PM
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I agree. Anne Boleyn was many things~erratic, irrational, hot tempered and impulsive~but she was never a fool. She made too many enemies who eventually helped bring her down. She was the Queen. When was she completely alone?
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  #382  
Old 03-18-2010, 05:21 AM
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I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry.
I should qualify this statement to say.. after they were married.

It is quite possible that she was not a virgin when she married the king, considering her pre-contract with Henry Percy and her apparent love for him. I've read some accounts that hint or suggest that Anne was not a virgin when she became queen. Of course, this is something we can never know for sure..
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  #383  
Old 03-19-2010, 02:23 AM
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I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry...
You are of course entitled to your opinion and I will stick with mine - that she was a adulteress who paid the penalty for being caught out at a time when her husband was looking elsewhere - a great reason to cheat to try to win him back with a new pregnancy that might result in a son.
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  #384  
Old 03-20-2010, 08:47 PM
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Henry's Letter to Anne....

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I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives...
Honestly I don't think it matters how many degrees you have. I love how people on these forums think that posting your credentials will give you more credit. LOL!

I believe I have said this before, there are people on different sides of the "argument". We see this through out History. The many books that have been written about her, etc. I guess I just take offense to it because I am fascinated by her. Fascinated by how one woman could transform a country. The power she held over the King. Women - I'm a Women's Studies minor, so I find these things intriguing.

I just found some interesting information, though. I'm sure other people, especially those who have had access to London's scene of Henry's 500th Anniversary, have already seen this, but I didn't have the opportunity to go to London's library while I was there. Anyway, a letter from Henry to Anne is on display. Apparently the Vatican held this letter as proof against the King in his "divorce" of KOA. Does anyone know how long this letter was with held? Is it something new that has just surfaced recently?

I know how much people dislike the series "The Tudors" on here, but this is the video I watched which revealed the letter.

Showtime Official Site :: Video :: Series
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  #385  
Old 03-20-2010, 08:53 PM
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She certainly was cunning enough to keep him dangling for six years.. holding out for marriage, and reforming the entire English religion in the process!
This is exactly why I am intrigued. Thank you. I really need to start reading the Ives book now.
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  #386  
Old 03-20-2010, 10:25 PM
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I know that letter is in the Vatican but I'm unclear on its contents.
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  #387  
Old 03-21-2010, 12:00 AM
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Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
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Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion...
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Honestly I don't think it matters how many degrees you have. I love how people on these forums think that posting your credentials will give you more credit. LOL!
The only reason I mentioned my credentials (or at least some of them) is that you told me that ‘once you (you were responding to my post so I assume that the you you were talking to was me) are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person’s opinion of Anne – I’m sure you would change your opinion’ so I decided to show you that that is incorrect – I have studied Anne and the Tudor’s not for a whole semester but over two years at both the basic undergraduate level and at postgraduate level and I haven’t changed my opinion – despite your statement that I would if I studied her for one semester.

I will not change my opinion that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor and suffered the penalty accordingly.

She was a complete schemer and did hope that by having a son (regardless of who the father was) she would be able to keep her position. Had she conceived a son with any man she would have been safe and she knew it.

That is my opinion based on more than ‘a whole semester’ which is all you say I need to have studied her to change my mind.

You are entitled to your opinion based on your research, the classes you have taken, the lecturers you have had and their research into the topic and so am I based on my research, the classes I have attended and the lecturers I have had and their research.

The Tudors have been a period of time about which I have been fascinated since my earliest years and I have spend a lot of uni time and private time researching them - for fun. I will not be changing my mind.
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  #388  
Old 03-21-2010, 02:30 AM
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I actually meant it the other way around, giving your professor credit. You must have taken it incorrectly - let me re-phrase 'After a semester of a person hammering their opinion into your head about Anne Boleyn, some people might change their views of her.' You obviously did due to this person. Make sense?

I also have spent a lot of time researching and traveling for pure fun because I love the Tudor era and other personal reasons. Like I said - which you have restated for the millionth time, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
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  #389  
Old 03-21-2010, 05:09 AM
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That makes sense.
However, I have had more than one lecturer and yes the first was the one that convinced me due to his research on this matter for his Ph.D, but I have had more than one lecturer from different unis and all have had the same idea (by the way he didn't change my opinion only confirmed it as that was the opinion I had formed in my teens from reading stuff).
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  #390  
Old 03-21-2010, 09:55 AM
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Iluvbertie,

Do you think Henry VIII was unusually cruel for his time (by this, I mean the execution of a large number of nobles, ostensibly for deviation from Henry's view on religion, and others were killed or imprisoned because of their lineage) or do you believe this "take no prisoner alive" attitude made him an efficient monarch? I have been re-reading Jasper Ridley's Henry VIII: The Politics of Tyranny and would appreciate your opinion.
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  #391  
Old 03-21-2010, 06:38 PM
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That makes sense.
Gotcha, I thought you had a different opinion before you took the class. Ph.D - yeah yeah. It's all good.
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Was Henry VIII unusually cruel for his time?
Well, we have Mary I and her persecutions.... as well. Also, I believe Elizabeth I did her fair share of executions as well.... I just think the whole time of The Tudors was very uncertain and unstable. Some people still claimed that the Tudors were illegit. Henry VII killed many relatives - both him and his son, Henry VIII were very protective of their throne. I think the Tudor blood which carried on to Mary and Elizabeth - both of them were very protective of the throne as well. Someone wrote that as Catherine of Valois went mad, possibly this was inherited and passed down through the generations.....
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  #392  
Old 03-22-2010, 02:05 AM
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For his time no I don't think he was unusually cruel.

He was an excellent administrator and wouldn't put up with people who opposed him but no more than any others of his time, and even less than some. I have always rated Henry VIII as one of the best monarchs England has ever had due to a number of factors.

For instance Henry's reign overlaps with Ivan the Terrible's and to me there is no comparison as to who was the crueler ruler.
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  #393  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:16 AM
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For instance Henry's reign overlaps with Ivan the Terrible's and to me there is no comparison as to who was the crueler ruler.
I have to point out that this statement is inaccurate. The reign of Henry VIII and Ivan IV just barely overlaps. Ivan IV was crowned Tsar on 16 January 1547 at the age of sixteen, and the first years of his rule were peaceful. Henry VIII died on 28 January 1547.
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  #394  
Old 03-22-2010, 04:11 AM
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I really don´t think that King Henry VIII was exceptionally cruel, he just did what other absolute monarchs did. He had the power, he used it, and, unfortunately, because of his wives the prosperity of "his England" is forgotten.
Having said that he was a good king I must add that he was the worst possible husband.
Anne was foolish, she got rid of her enemies by guile and her success went to her head and brought about her downfall. She died as she was tried (justly or not) and considered an adultress and was executed as a traitor, not only to her husband but to her King, which is those days was not taken lightly.
In my opinion she was not a good person but it riles me to think of the trumped up accusation of incest, that is one accusation that I do not believe.
Before marriage she seemed to be clever, but after obtaining the title of Queen she became tyrannical, hysterical and let us be frank , very unlucky for if she had given birth to a son she would have had honour instead of the block.
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  #395  
Old 03-22-2010, 04:44 AM
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I agree that Henry VIII was not overly cruel as king.. with the exception of those related to him by blood or marriage.

I think most people forget, however, that Anne Boleyn played a significant role in the development of the Church of England.. and she also did good works that oftentimes go unmentioned. In other words, there was much more to her than that hysterical, jealous woman that everyone is familiar with.

She is the one who convinced Henry to have the bible translated into English and made available to the common people.

Weir says that no religious heretics were burned at the stake while she was queen.. however, Henry had them executed both before and after her reign.. and indicates that her influence saved these people's lives.

She distributed a fortune in charity among the English people, as well. George Wyatt (grandson of Thomas) estimated that she gave 1500 pounds per year to the poor alone, an enormous sum in those times..

Anne also sewed clothing for distribution to the poor, and was known on at least one occasion, to have personally attended to the ill on her travels.

I'm not saying that she was not defiant and arrogant.. or that she was not a jealous wife.. or that she made quite a few enemies who helped bring her down.. but it is prudent for us to realize that she was more than just a scheming witch. After all, there was something that Henry loved about her.

Most of her contemporaries thought she was intelligent, witty and charming.. those that were not her enemies, of course.

Objectively speaking, Anne Boleyn wasn't all bad.. she was a product of her times.. and those times were ruthless, especially for women.
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  #396  
Old 03-22-2010, 12:28 PM
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Good points raised by all and I agree that Henry VIII was a remarkable monarch. And I realize my humanist view today would not be viewed with favor in the sixteenth century but it makes me wonder if another King or Queen would have handled matters differently yet still keep the throne secure.
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  #397  
Old 03-22-2010, 01:54 PM
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I don't think another king would have been needed.. if only Henry had sent Catherine of Aragon back to Spain and married Ursula Pole.
He would have had to wait a few years, but she was a Plantagenet by birth (her mother being Margaret, Countess of Salisbury), and the mother of six sons.
Had he made her his queen, the Tudors might very well still be on the throne today..
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  #398  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:27 PM
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Yes, and then Henry would not have executed his mother-in-law when she was in her late 60s. Poor Margaret Pole, Countess of Salisbury. Some accounts said the young executioner botched the beheading, hitting her first in the shoulders, then panicking and started hacking at her body.
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  #399  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:45 PM
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...Had he made her his queen, the Tudors might very well still be on the throne today..
Well Tudor blood is still on the throne even if not a direct male line heir (Henry VII's descendents include James VI of Scotland who became James I of England, George I and all the later monarchs).
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:20 AM
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Perhaps I should have said the House of Tudor might still be on the throne.. as in, direct male line descent.
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