The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #361  
Old 02-24-2010, 07:11 PM
Lady Meg's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: District of Columbia USA/London, UK, United States
Posts: 172
I agree. If you are dying - why would you damn your soul by confessing something that is not true? I think she had enough dignity to do what was right at the hour of her death. Cranmer insisted that she was innocent to the end. With Cromwell, didn't they have a spat - which added to his involvement with the King's wishes to "get rid of her?"
__________________

__________________

Reply With Quote
  #362  
Old 02-25-2010, 04:48 PM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,158
Lady Meg--

I am not sure about Cromwell but Anne definitely did not like Wolsey, Cranmer's predecessor. Anne blamed Wolsey for destroying her chance to marry a true love and after she became Henry's mistress and had influence with the King, Anne was believed by many to be part of the group which destroyed Wolsey.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #363  
Old 02-25-2010, 11:51 PM
Lady Meg's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: District of Columbia USA/London, UK, United States
Posts: 172
I thought Anne didn't become his "mistress" - she waited - I knew of her dislike of Wolsey. She wanted to marry someone else, yes, and when she caught Henry's eye, he made Wolsey investigate and dissolve her engagement with another man... Henry Percy? Was that him?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #364  
Old 02-26-2010, 12:36 AM
Duchessmary's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, United States
Posts: 1,081
Yes it was Harry Percy. The Cardinal sent him to marry Margaret Talbot, the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. A failure from the start, I think Percy later had a nervous breakdown if memory serves me.
Anne and Cromwell got along famously until she started questioning his motives when the monasteries were being dissolved. Then, he turned into a snake and struck.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #365  
Old 02-26-2010, 06:10 PM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,158
Anne kept Henry at arm's length for some time but eventually became his mistress. Most historians agree that Anne became pregnant with Elizabeth before Henry and Anne married, thereby precipitating his break with Rome and advancing the cause of Protestantism in England because Henry wanted his child to be legitimate at birth.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #366  
Old 02-26-2010, 06:19 PM
Sonjapearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In front of my Mac, United States
Posts: 607
I really doubt Anne had an affair with her brother. Anyone who commits incest has serious mental issues and Anne was not like that. If she was, she would not have capture Henry VIII's attention and become his Queen.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #367  
Old 02-26-2010, 06:27 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: here and there, Greece
Posts: 535
I doubt it too, but then again almost all of the accusations against her were false. Besides I think that the person who accused her of incest was indeed clever for one reason: it ws really difficult to prove that it was a false accuse. I mean her brother had of course free access at her rooms at any time and they would often stay completely alone - naturally since they were siblings. But then , if no one was present, how could she prove that nothing so horrible ever happened?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #368  
Old 02-26-2010, 09:29 PM
Duchessmary's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, United States
Posts: 1,081
"The Other Boleyn Girl", the film and the book, were horrible, in representing incest. As if Anne, who was always intelligent, would do such an idiotic thing. It's true that she was foolish in a lot of areas~her temper, her haughtiness, her treatment of Lady Mary. I also believe Henry probably had issues with impotence, but never, never could I imagine Anne having intercourse with her brother or any other man while she was queen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #369  
Old 03-05-2010, 10:39 PM
Lady Meg's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: District of Columbia USA/London, UK, United States
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
Anne kept Henry at arm's length for some time but eventually became his mistress. Most historians agree that Anne became pregnant with Elizabeth before Henry and Anne married, thereby precipitating his break with Rome and advancing the cause of Protestantism in England because Henry wanted his child to be legitimate at birth.
Yeah yeah... that I knew - but the deal had been made.. she was to be his wife. I forgot about Elizabeth, oops.

I HATED "The Other Boleyn Girl" with Natalie Portman and the other one that was made for BBC. Both based off the book - it's just a false representation of Anne. Anyone who watches it and does not "know" any better about Anne probably gets the notion that she did indeed have an affair with her brother. There were so many things written about her that were negative. You have the extra finger, a huge mole, she is a witch, etc. I doubt there was much of anything written about her that was actually true and complimentary of her. If anyone knows of anything let me know. I would love to read it. The books on her written within the last few centuries just seem objective - some don't even have an opinion, they just try to state the facts as plainly as possible, which I like.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #370  
Old 03-06-2010, 12:04 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
But whose 'facts' do they state? What is the perspective of the authors' and what is their motive for writing the facts that they choose to include and leave out?
History is not just a simple accumulation of facts. What is included in that list is one thing but what has been left out.
Then there is the explanation of the cause and effect and that is always going to be the author's opinion/interpretation.

I am no fan of Anne Boleyn mainly due to having a lecturer at uni who had done his Ph.D. thesis on her and his opinion, after reading and researching thousands of documents from the 1520s and 1530s was that she mightn't have been as bad as portrayed by the King but she was no pure lady either. He is of the opinion that she is being whitewashed now rather than seen for what she was - a scheming woman who got what she wanted, was unable to satisfy the King or fulfil her own ambitions and took actions to bring that about and was caught out so the King took the only action he could - execution. We did an entire semester on Henry and his wives with this guy and his views obviously affect the way I see the wives and Henry and Anne was the most scheming and the least likeable of any of them (did she commit adultery - I believe she did and nothing will convince my otherwise based on the research I have done, had to do at uni and the opinion of a man who went on to become a Professor of History based on his work on the Tudor period.)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #371  
Old 03-06-2010, 09:05 AM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 10,181
Iluvbertie...so based on this research...who did Anne cheat on Henry with?

I have never believe that she had an affair with her brother, I've always thought he was gay...I might have read that somewhere as well. Can't recall the source.

I have always thought the depiction of Anne as a schemer was well deserved. I am not thinking of the mole or Anne as a witch etc basically she was not allowed to marry her true love, Harry Percy and so didn't care after that.

I think she (and her family) totally knew what they were doing whenthey schemed to get her into Henry's good graces. Anne was the best manipulator there was by trying to hold out for marriage. She had seen what happened to her sister and other women (i.e. Blessie Blount). She was NOT trying to be the mother of the king's latest bastard. Its cruel but there you go. Let's face it....women prior to Anne for years had been the King's mistress (I am talking about more than Henry, etc.) and their families had gained presitge and money.

Anne's mistake was thinking that she was smarter and cunnier than Henry. If she had married any other King she would have gotten married, produce a daughter or two and then a son and lived an uneventful life. Her mistake that her Henry was Henry VIII and not the V, or VI.

I also think Karma is applicable here.....she was not very nice to either Catherine of Aragon or Mary. How you can have issues with your husband's wife is something I have never understood (now and then). Other women don't truly know the relationship between a man and a wife. And she treated (and encouraged Henry) to treat Mary horribly. This treatment totally scarred Mary for later life.
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #372  
Old 03-12-2010, 08:27 PM
Lady Meg's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: District of Columbia USA/London, UK, United States
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
...did she commit adultery - I believe she did and nothing will convince my otherwise based on the research I have done, had to do at uni and the opinion of a man who went on to become a Professor of History based on his work on the Tudor period.
Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion.
This is one guy and his view on Anne, though. Was she really that scheming? I wouldn't know except for what I have read and so far it seems as if she was merely a pawn playing a role, but as she became aware of her power, yes, she did become more involved in her own destiny. We really won't know for sure because there is no correct theory written about her I believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Iluvbertie...so based on this research...who did Anne cheat on Henry with?
Well done!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #373  
Old 03-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,158
I am re-reading a biography of Henry VIII and it strikes me again that while many consider him to be a great ruler, it also appears that he was very cruel and caused the death of many people based on their lineage, their religious beliefs (Catholic and Protestant), their wealth, etc. It makes me wonder if he was just a cruel tyrant or if the head injury he suffered during the joust caused these wild mood swings or was it due to the pain of his leg ulcer? He must have been in constant pain and this was probably aggravated by his weight gain in middle age.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #374  
Old 03-15-2010, 07:32 PM
HM Queen Catherine's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rendsburg, Germany
Posts: 303
The problem with Anne is that most people are on one side of the fence or the other.. there is not enough middle ground with her, and I think there should be.

Was she a pawn? Yes. Was she also a schemer? Yes.

Anne's position was not only difficult but treacherous. Here was a woman of good family and education, with high connections, in an age where every promotion and position at court was decided by the king. Indeed, everyone's lives and fortunes were at stake and at the mercy of his whim.

Becoming the king's mistress was one thing.. becoming his wife was quite another.. and a feat that could not have been achieved without planning and intelligence - on the part of Anne herself and her family, who were her advisors as well as her handlers.

Of course the Howards wanted her to succeed where Mary had failed, to elevate their position and bring them closer to the throne, which was the font of all power in England. Unlike Mary, Anne was calculating and just as cunning as her Howard relatives.. and she had the advantage of having lived in the French Court, which was considered the most sophisticated realm in Europe at that time.

But to some degree, Anne was a pawn of her family, and was at the mercy of her father and her Howard uncles. Women were chattel. They had no power of their own to speak of, and were used and bartered into marriages without consideration of their own feelings or desires. If Anne really loved Henry Percy, then there is your example.

No one today can really say what her personal feelings were for Henry VIII. I do believe there was at least a great passion between them, but who can say if either of them felt true love?

There is no doubt that she did weald some power of her own over Henry himself. Anne was the only one of his wives that spoke to him with impunity. Even Catherine of Aragon was circumspect of his authority, and every wife that followed Anne was kept firmly in her place as consort. Not only is this evidence of her intelligence, but it's also an indicator of Henry's strong feelings for her.. to allow her to be the closest to his equal as any woman could expect to be.

She certainly was cunning enough to keep him dangling for six years.. holding out for marriage, and reforming the entire English religion in the process!

But even the reformers considered incest taboo, and I have never believed that either Anne or George would have considered such a thing, even for the sake of giving Henry a son.. at best they would have only had a 50/50 chance of success anyway.. and regardless of this, they had to be aware of the possible consequences of such a liasion (meaning deformities and birth defects).. and what good would it do to give Henry such a son? Absolutely none.

I also think that both Henry and Anne relished and enjoyed the chase and the game of their courtship. After they were married, however, Anne became the jealous wife while Henry expected her to be finally satisfied. He expected to be satisfied, too, with a male heir to the throne.

Had she provided that son, Henry would have remained married to her despite the state of their private relationship.. and today we would have an entirely different view of Anne Boleyn.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #375  
Old 03-15-2010, 08:29 PM
Duchessmary's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, United States
Posts: 1,081
I completely agree. Had she "Closed her eyes as her betters had done", perhaps Henry would have tolerated her better.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #376  
Old 03-16-2010, 05:53 PM
Russophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Portland, United States
Posts: 4,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchessmary View Post
I completely agree. Had she "Closed her eyes as her betters had done", perhaps Henry would have tolerated her better.
Were it me, I would have led him a merry chase whist married. Keep that satyr's interest! HA!
__________________
"Not MGM, not the press, not anyone can tell me what to do."--Ava Gardner
Reply With Quote
  #377  
Old 03-16-2010, 06:50 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: here and there, Greece
Posts: 535
About Anne Boleyn's and Henry's chances of a long lasting marriage - does anyone think that even if Anne had born a son he would still have got rid of her to marry another woman? Because I do. Of course I doubt that he would execute the mother of the Prince Of Wales, but lets face it, its not like that marriage was a success. If Anne had bore a son, Henry would of course been delighted and that would somehow secure her position as Queen for a while. Let' s not forget however that Anne had many enemies, a bunch of people conspiring to bring down her and the Boleyn/Howard clan and that there was a serious class between her and Henry, who had an appetite for women his whole life . So, I believe that after a few years, another another would appeal on the King and he , as the Head of the Church of England, would grant himself a divorce with Queen Anne, keeping his son legitimate however, and Anne would be convieniently exiled to a remote estate in the country, making Henry's life a lot easier.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #378  
Old 03-17-2010, 03:37 AM
HM Queen Catherine's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rendsburg, Germany
Posts: 303
I think he may have sent her away from Court if she became too much for him to handle.. but I don't think he would divorce the mother of his son (or sons). Keeping in mind that the question of the Tudor dynasty's legitimacy had existed since his father took the throne, I doubt he would allow anything to cast a shadow of illegitimacy over his son and heir.. even an irksome wife.

Yes, he was the king, and could basically do what he wanted, but he would still need a valid reason for divorce, i.e. consanguinity (for which he already had a dispensation to marry Anne), a pre-contract of marriage (which may have been valid in Anne's case, but would render his son illegitimate), non-consummation (not an option), adultery or in his case, treason.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #379  
Old 03-17-2010, 04:17 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Meg View Post
Um, it was a fictional book - exactly - who's facts was she basing the book on because she certainly was not there.
Once you are put through a whole semester/schooled/talked to about a person's opinion of Anne - I'm sure you would change your opinion.
This is one guy and his view on Anne, though. Was she really that scheming? I wouldn't know except for what I have read and so far it seems as if she was merely a pawn playing a role, but as she became aware of her power, yes, she did become more involved in her own destiny. We really won't know for sure because there is no correct theory written about her I believe.

I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives (actually two years in total between my BA and MA and with different experts as my lecturers/tutors etc.) I have not changed my mind. I do believe that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor (as the wife of the King or Heir to the throne to sleep with any man other than her husband makes her a traitor - along with the man she slept with).

History is a great subject because there are so many interpretations and so few actual facts after you leave primary school - fact she married Henry, had a child and died. Everything else is interpretation based on the material we have available and my opinion based on my reading and evaluation of the people who have written about her is that she was a scheming adulteress who got her just deserts - execution.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #380  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:35 PM
HM Queen Catherine's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rendsburg, Germany
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I have done more than one semester of study on Henry VIII and his wives (actually two years in total between my BA and MA and with different experts as my lecturers/tutors etc.) I have not changed my mind. I do believe that she was an adulteress and thus a traitor (as the wife of the King or Heir to the throne to sleep with any man other than her husband makes her a traitor - along with the man she slept with).

History is a great subject because there are so many interpretations and so few actual facts after you leave primary school - fact she married Henry, had a child and died. Everything else is interpretation based on the material we have available and my opinion based on my reading and evaluation of the people who have written about her is that she was a scheming adulteress who got her just deserts - execution.
I seriously question that Anne was an adulteress or slept with anyone other than Henry. If she was a schemer, she certainly had the brains to match.. and it was no secret that for the wife of the King to commit adultery was treason.. and the penalty for treason was death.

Why would an intelligent woman, who had finally reached the pinnacle of power after six long years, forsake all she had achieved for one or two nights of pleasure with someone else? In hopes of having a son that she could pawn off as the heir? I find that unlikely in the extreme, especially considering that as queen she had no privacy to speak of.. even when she went to the privy, her ladies-in-waiting knew of it.

Several historians agree that the charges against her and subsequent trial was a farce. Even the great men sitting in judgment of her knew the outcome Henry expected.. and they complied with their guilty verdict and sentence of death.

And the fact is, that even though the Church of England was established, it was politically expedient for Henry to have her executed.. to mend relations with the Catholic powers on the continent (i.e. France and Spain).

With the death of Catherine of Aragon, the Church of Rome considered him a widower.. free to marry again. They never recognized Henry's marriage to Anne as legitimate.. and with her gone, he could marry Jane Seymour with a clean slate and at the same time, ease his political relations in Europe.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anne boleyn, anne of cleves, biography, british history, catherine howard, catherine of aragon, catherine parr, catholicism, church of england, elizabeth i, henry viii, jane seymour, pope, queen consort, syphilis, tudor


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Illegitimate Offspring of King Henry I (1068-1135) CarolinaLandgrave British Royal History 23 07-18-2014 05:01 PM
A Potential Wife for Prince Harry Zonk Prince Harry and Prince William 1781 07-12-2014 12:25 PM
Who is your favourite of Henry VIII's wives? lexi4 British Royal History 287 07-03-2014 12:51 AM
Arthur, Prince of Wales, brother of Henry VIII (1486-1502) iowabelle British Royal History 23 11-24-2011 09:02 PM
"Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII" by David Starkey (2003) ysbel Royal Library 12 11-19-2011 03:44 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman palace pieter van vollenhoven poland pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:33 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]