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  #321  
Old 05-08-2009, 02:04 AM
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From what I have read Elizabeth could read, write and speak Latin and French from a very early age. She was was able to write essays and converse with adults in these languages with great facility. I am sure that she had lessons about religion but her education was not focused on religion. Her brother was being educated to be a King not a priest and she was lucky enough to live with him and to be able to share his lessons and as she was so extremely intelligent she was very interested and learned the lessons of Kingship well.
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  #322  
Old 05-09-2009, 05:22 PM
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Getting back to Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond, this is what Starkey has to say (p198-200):

"It therefore came as a brutal shock to Catherine when, in the summer of 1525, she heard that Henry's young bastard, Henry Fitzroy, was to be recognised as the King's son and showered with titles and honours. The boy was installed as a Knight of the Garter, created Earl of Nottingham and Duke of Richmond and Somerset (all of them royal titles) and appointed Lord Admiral and Warden-General of the Marches against Scotland. At the same time, his education was put on a formal footing; he was given a great Household, with head officers and a Council, and sent off to Yorkshire to be nominal head of a regional government for the north. Such a concentration of peerages and great offices had never before been held by a subject, let alone a six-year-old. It could mean one thing only: Henry VIII had decided that gender was more important than legitimacy. Catherine feared that he would recognise Richmond as his heir, and would exclude Mary from her rightful inheritance.

Henry, characteristically, never went quite so far."

For Henry's ambivalence, Starkey suggests that although England had no formal exclusion of female succession, no woman had actually sat on the English throne. Empress Matilda, daughter of Henry I, had tried, but her attempts to enforce her rights had led to civil war. "And civil war was a sensitive topic for Henry VIII...If Matilda, married to the Emperor Henry V, had failed to make her claim good, why should Mary be any different - especially when the Emperor Charles V had just rejected her as his bride?

"But the succession of a bastard, like Richmond, was at least as problematical as the succession of a woman, like Mary. Moreover, Henry was just as proud of his daughter as was Catherine, and he was almost as demonstrative. He was not going to disinherit his child lightly."

Catherine's response: "Instead of confronting Henry, which was rarely successful, she reverted to her usual methods and set herself to persuade him. It seems to have worked. The result was an explicit recognition of Mary's status as heiress to the throne."
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  #323  
Old 05-11-2009, 01:03 PM
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Does Starkey's book mention anywhere the idea of marrying Henry Fitzroy to Mary? I know it's mentioned somewhere in a book about Henry VIII and wives, and I don't have a copy of Starkey's book.
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  #324  
Old 05-11-2009, 02:57 PM
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When I said neglectful, I meant in the period when Henry decided to put Catherine of A. aside (and try to sire another child), so Mary would have been 11 or so... and then after Henry got rid of Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth was an inconvenient reminder.

I'm sure that once Edward was born, the king put his energies into the education of his son, the future king... and whatever the girls got was intended to make them decent marital prospects for whomever the king selected.

I think that Henry was quite doting with his daughters when their mothers were alive and in favor... but once the pendulum turned, watch out! (In my state today they would have court-ordered Henry to attend a class called "Children in the Middle"!)
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  #325  
Old 05-11-2009, 03:05 PM
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Does Starkey's book mention anywhere the idea of marrying Henry Fitzroy to Mary?
No, there is no suggestion of any such union by Starkey.
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  #326  
Old 05-12-2009, 12:08 AM
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Thanks, Warren. That must be in Fraser or Weir's book then. I think Henry had his own version of " Children in the Middle". Certainly, Henry's main concern was always his son and heir, and Edward was additionally lucky in that his mother, Jane Seymour, never fell out of favor. Elizabeth was only briefly in favor, since Anne Boleyn died when Elizabeth was young, and Anne's whole disgrace happened when Elizabeth was young. Henry was a good father to Mary for many years, but he did mistreat her very badly after she sided with her mother during his attempts to get his marriage to Catharine of Aragon ended.

So in the end Mary perhaps had more bad memories of her father than good, yet Henry was quite loving to Mary after she eventually realized that she had to seem to go along with her father's plans as regards his marriage to her mother, and disinheiriting herself. Elizabeth had more distant memories of her father, yet certainly she liked being called his daughter in her own reign, she seems to have proud of it. She although never really in favor with Henry was never not really in favor either, so she didn't have the bad memories of Henry that Mary had. She was only two or so when the stuff with Anne happened.
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  #327  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Ann View Post
It was Mary's son Henry Carey that was rumored to be Henry VIII's son he was said to look alot like the King but the King never claimed him she also had her daughter Cathreine Carey, she only had two other children from her second marriage Anne Stafford and a son Edward he only lived to about the age of 10 years old I believe. I read somewhere there was decendents of Mary boylen. I know she had grandchildren her grandson Lord Hunsdon got or claimed the Boylen family title of (Earl of Ormonde) but that was around 1597 or so i am not sure after that. I will have to look it up.

Wow I just read that Henry Carey and his wife Ann Mogan had 12 children and his sister Catherine had 15 it seems more and more likely that Mary Bolyen would have some decendents...
As a direct descendant of Mary Boleyn, I can tell you that we definitely exist!

There has been a lot of historical speculation regarding the paternity of Mary's children, Catherine and Henry. While it is true that Henry Carey was rumored to be the son of Henry VIII, and that he bore a striking resemblance to him, the fact that Henry VIII fathered Catherine Carey now seems to be finding its basis in the historical record.

The hand-written record of births recorded in a Latin dictionary owned by Sir Francis Knollys, seems to bear out the fact that Catherine Carey, his wife, was conceived during the time of Mary Boleyn's affair with the King.

It is true, that Henry VIII acknowledged neither of these children, but it must be pointed out that if he had, it would have been a situation that may have undermined his desire to marry Anne.

Besides, he had nothing to gain politically or otherwise by claiming the Carey children.

He did have a motive for advancing Henry FitzRoy, however, which was to put pressure on Catherine of Aragon. There was nothing she held more dear than her daughter, and Henry's elevation of his illegitimate son, would have at least made her believe in the possibility that Mary could be denied her rights to the succession. Unfortunately for Henry, his ploy failed. I doubt he ever seriously considered putting his illegitimate son on the throne, because his own dynasty had suffered under the suspicion of illegitimacy from the beginning.
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  #328  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:56 AM
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Could you please provide a source for this statement? I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously considered arranging marriage between brother and sister in a 16th-century-Christian-kingdom
Personally, I cannot credit any source for the possibility of a marriage between Mary Tudor and Henry FitzRoy. I doubt it was ever considered, and certainly would not have taken place if Mary had any say in the matter. As the daughter and granddaughter of three powerful monarchs, she was well aware of her high position.

But in other European realms, the issue of what today is considered incestuous marriage was quite common. Philip II of Spain (Mary's widower) married his 4th and last wife, Anne of Austria, who also happened to be his niece.

In fact, the Spanish and Portugese Royal houses were notorious for these marriages. Not brothers and sisters, mind you, but incestuous all the same.

The only notable case of a brother-sister marriage I have found so far was that of John V of Armagnac, and he lived from 1420-1473. He married his sister, Isabelle, for which he claimed to have a dispensation from Pope Callixtus III. They had at least 3 surviving children, and John's dispensation turned out to be a forgery. His children were dis-inherited and declared bastards. He died without legitimate heirs.
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  #329  
Old 06-05-2009, 10:59 AM
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Wow, I find this so great thank you for all your infromaiton on this topic. I look forward to hearing more.
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  #330  
Old 06-07-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Grace Angel View Post
It's unlikely but possible he has illegitimate descendents alive today. His bastard son Henry Fitzroy died as a teenager leaving no descendents, but it has been speculated that some of Mary Boleyn's kids might have been his- she was his mistress, although she was married. Anyone know of any descendents of her children? Henry had no other rumored illegitimate children, but he did have mistresses. Obviously, he never had another illegitimate son other than Fitzroy, or he would have acknowledged the child, one thinks, unless the paternity was uncertain.
Mary Boleyn's descendants:

Catherine Carey married Sir Francis Knollys of Rotherfield Greys, son of Sir Robert Knollys of Rotherfield and Lettice Pennystone.

Their children:
Henry Knollys (1541-1583)
Married Margaret Cave and had issue.
Mary Knollys (Oct 1542-?)
Lettice Knollys (Nov 1543-25 Dec 1634)
Married Walter Devereaux, Earl of Essex with issue. They were the parents of the Countess of Devonshire, the Countess of Northumberland and the 2nd Earl of Essex. Grandparents of the 2nd Earl of Warwick, 1st Earl of Holland, 1st Earl of Newport, Countess of Leicester, 10th Earl of Northumberland and Duchess of Somerset.
Married Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester with issue, one son named Robert Dudley, Baron Denbigh, whose legitimacy is questionable.
Married Sir Christopher Blount, no issue.
William Knollys, 1st Earl of Banbury (1545-25 May 1632)
Married Dorothy Braye, no issue.
Married Elizabeth Howard with issue (questionable legitimacy).
Edward Knollys (1546-1580)
Maude Knollys (1548-?)
Elizabeth Knollys (1549-?)
Married Sir Thomas Leighton of Feckenham, with issue.
Robert Knollys (Nov 1550-1625)
Married Joan Heigham, with issue.
Richard Knollys (1552-21 Aug 1596)
Married Catherine Vaughn, with issue.
Sir Francis Knollys II (14 Aug 1553-1643)
Married Lettice Barrett, with issue.
Anne Knollys, Lady de la Warr (19 Jul 1555-Sep/Dec 1608)
Married Thomas West, 2nd Baron de la Warr, with issue (13 children). One of their sons was Commandant of Jamestown (1612-1617), another was Crown Governor of Virginia. Their eldest surviving son became 3rd Baron de la Warr, who was the Governor of the Virginia Company of London. The State of Delaware is named for the 3rd Baron, and he was the ancestor of the Earls de la Warr.
Sir Thomas Knollys (1558-1596)
Married Lady Odelia de Morada, daughter of the Marquess of Bergen, with issue.
Catherine Knollys (21 Oct 1559-20 Dec 1620)
Married Gerald FitzGerald, Baron Offaly, with issue (1 daughter).
Married Sir Philip Butler of Watton Woodhall, issue unknown.
Dudley Warwick Knollys (9 May 1562-1562)

Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon, married Anne Morgan, daughter of Sir Thomas Morgan of Arkston and Anne Elizabeth Whitney.

Their children:
Philadelphia Carey, Lady Scrope of Bolton (d. 3 Feb 1626)
Married Thomas Scrope, 10th Baron Scrope of Bolton, with issue. Their son, Emmanuel Scrope, became the 1st Earl of Sunderland.
Thomas Carey died as infant.
William Carey died as infant.
Thomas Carey
died as infant.
George Carey, 2nd Baron Hunsdon
(1547-9 Sep 1603)
Married Elizabeth Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer of Althorpe and Katherine Kitson, with issue. Elizabeth's sister was Countess of Dorset. Her nephew was the 1st Baron Spencer of Wormleighton, an ancestor of the Earls of Sunderland, the 3rd Duke of Marlborough and Lady Diana Spencer.
Catherine Carey, Countess of Nottingham (1550-25 Feb 1602)
Married Charles Howard, 1st Earl of Nottingham, with issue. One daughter was Countess of Kildare and another Countess of Carrick. They were also the parents of the 2nd Earl of Nottingham and Baron Howard of Effingham. One of their granddaughters was the Countess of Peterborough, another was Countess of Tyrconnell.
Sir Edmund Carey (1558-1637)
Married Mary Crocker, no issue.
Married Judith Humphrey, with issue.
Married Elizabeth Neville, issue unknown. She was the widow of John Danvers and daughter of the 4th Baron Latimer. Her sisters were Countess of Northumberland and Countess of Exeter.
Robert Carey, 1st Earl of Monmouth (1560-21 Apr 1639)
Married Elizabeth Trevannion, with issue. Elizabeth was Robert's 1st cousin, being the daughter of Hugh Trevannion and Sybilla Morgan. Sybilla was Anne Morgan's sister. They were parents to the 2nd Earl of Monmouth and ancestors of the 1st Earl of Monmouth, 2nd Creation (who also became 3rd Earl of Peterborough), the Viscounts Mordaunt of Avalon, and the Duchess of Gordon.
John Carey, 3rd Baron Hunsdon (1563-Apr 1617)
Married Mary Hyde, with issue.
Henry Carey
Mary Margaret Carey
Married Sir Edward Hoby, issue unknown.
****
Valentine Carey (illegitimate son), became Bishop of Exeter in 1621

And these are just the grandchildren! LOL.
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  #331  
Old 06-08-2009, 06:16 PM
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I read in Alison Wier that it was Cromwell who mentioned the marriage between Mary and Fitzroy, but the idea was never taken seriuosly, it may have been to annoy the spanish ambassador Chapuys who was trying to protect Mary's marriage rights.
Also, I find it difficult to believe Henry Carey was the son of Henry viii. Henryviii never gave him the time of day, and Henry was a doting father (when the mood struck him)to all his children, illigetimate or not, but he was frantically protective of sons, despite wanting Anne, I doubt he would have ignored a natural son when he was so desperate for male children.
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  #332  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:28 PM
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Also, I find it difficult to believe Henry Carey was the son of Henry viii. Henryviii never gave him the time of day, and Henry was a doting father (when the mood struck him)to all his children, illigetimate or not, but he was frantically protective of sons, despite wanting Anne, I doubt he would have ignored a natural son when he was so desperate for male children.
Henry VIII was desperate for Legitimate Sons. There is a difference, and there especially was to him and to the Tudor Dynasty. It would not have mattered if he had 10 illegitimate sons. If he had no lawful son to inherit the throne after him, he would have found it very difficult indeed to try to place an illegitimate one there instead.

Of course, whether or not Henry Carey was his son remains a hot topic of debate among many historians. There are some that say he could not have been the son of Henry VIII because the King never recognized him and did not elevate him to a high position as he did with Henry FitzRoy.

On the other hand, there is some evidence to suggest that Henry Carey was his son. He himself claimed in 1533 that he was “Our Sovereign Lord the King’s son”. He became the ward of Anne Boleyn after the death of Sir William Carey in 1528, and was thereby ensured an excellent education. He apparently remained mostly at court as an adult, where he worked tirelessly for the will of his Sovereign.

Henry VIII had nothing to gain by claiming either of the Carey children. By law, they were considered to be the children of William Carey. He certainly couldn't claim them before he married Anne, which would futher complicate an already complicated situation. After her trial and execution, I'm sure everyone had had quite enough of the Boleyns, and it would have again been imprudent to acknowledge them.

In fact, leaving everyone to believe that they were the offspring of William Carey was probably a kinder fate for them both. It left them without any stain on their reputations, and allowed them to become trusted courtiers under Henry VIII's watchful eye.

William Carey was rewarded with royal grants in 1524 and 1526, which are thought to have been the birth dates of Catherine and Henry Carey. Some historians feel that the King was compensating Carey for the fact that these were not his biological children. William Carey, was also given royal grants in 1522 and 1523, which is thought to be the beginning years of his affair with Mary Boleyn.

Henry VIII admitted his affair and also admitted “affinity” and “consanguinity” with Mary Carey and it could be pointed out that his dispensation to marry Anne probably would not have been necessary if no children had resulted from the relationship.

It was Elizabeth I, however, that elevated Henry Carey to a peerage. Elizabeth also visited him on his deathbed and gave him the patent and robes of the Earldom of Wiltshire, which he refused. It is also said that when Elizabeth died, Henry Carey’s son, Robert, received the ring taken from the Queen’s hand. Catherine Carey had attended the Queen, was buried at Royal expense and given a prominent memorial on her death.

Neither of the Carey children ever suffered any misfortunes in Elizabeth's Court. They never fell from favor with her, and were members of her closest inner circle. And it must also be said that Catherine Carey's daughter, Lettice, bore a remarkable resemblance to Queen Elizabeth. Even though they were maternally related, it was the Tudor red hair that made Lettice Knollys favor the Queen so much.

Of course, it cannot be said with certainty that Henry VIII fathered Henry Carey. I hope one day we will have a definite answer to this question. It does seem very likely that he was the father of Catherine Carey, at least.
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  #333  
Old 06-09-2009, 05:29 AM
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Lettice Knollys was a Carey who definitely wasn´t favoured by Queen Elizabeth II, well she wasn´t after she married in secret one of the Queen´s favourites the very handsome Walter Devereaux, the handsome Earl of Essex, who later on met a sticky end.
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  #334  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:27 AM
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Henry VIII had nothing to gain by claiming either of the Carey children. By law, they were considered to be the children of William Carey.
So here's an interesting question, then: was Bessie Blount married when Henry FitzRoy was born? If not, perhaps Henry was only willing to acknowledge illegitimate children when doing so would not embarrass the man who was legally known to be the father of the child -- i.e., when the mistress was not married?
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  #335  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:26 AM
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Bessie Blount was not married at the time she became Henry VIII's mistress. She was a maid of honour to Catherine of Aragon. In 1514, she became Henry's mistress, aged only 12. Henry's affair to her was one of the longest he had ever had, lasting 7 years. In 1519, aged only 17, she gave birth to Henry's only acknowledged illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy. Soon after the child's birth her affair with Henry stopped and in 1522, her marriage was arranged to Gilbert Tailboys, 1st Baron Tailboys of Kyme.

If Henry FitzRoy didn't die in 1536, there is every indication that Henry VIII would probably name him his successor (he didn't have his legitimate son at the time), or at least would arrange that Fitzroy was to succeed any legitimate sons he might have.
At the time of his death, an Act was going though Parliament which disinherited Henry's daughter Elizabeth (Mary was already disinherited at the time). It also permitted the King to name his successor; an important provision of the Act provided that it didn't matter whether the successor was legitimate or not. Although there is no evidence that would prove Henry planned to name Fitzroy his successor, the Act would have permitted him to do so.
Henry certainly seemed to be on the path of acknowledging his son's rights in some way, especially after he granted Fitzroy the titles of the Earl of Nottingham and Duke of Richmond and Somerset. The boy's marriage with Lady Mary Howard (the only daughter of the Duke of Norfolk and first cousin to Anne and Mary Boleyn) was also arranged, so he was set to inherit the vast fortunes (and possibly titles) of his father-in-law.
There was also talk that Henry planned to make Henry Fitzroy King of Ireland, while his daughter Mary would be Queen of England (that was before his divorce with Catherine of Aragon).


Personally I don't believe Mary Boleyn's son was from Henry. As mentioned above, the Act of Parliament would enable Henry to name even his illegitimate son(s) as his successor. Henry would only need to publically acknowledge William Carey for the boy to qualify. It would be even for Henry to have a male heir after Henry Fitzroy’s death, for his legitimate son, Edward, was not born until a year later. Even after Edward's birth, Henry was troubled with the question of succession, for Edward was a sickly child. If he had another, even illegitimate son, he would have made sure the son has some succession rights, probably even superior to that of Mary and Elizabeth (the legitimacy of both was arguable as well, at least in the eyes of some, and would later case a lot of headache for both).
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  #336  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:39 AM
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I have read also that Henry Carey declared he was the King's son in Henry's lifetime, but the Kings reaction is never recorded, did he deny or ignore it?
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  #337  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:47 AM
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I have never heard that Henry Carey declared he was the King's son at all, but I would think (IMO) that they would want no parts of court after his Aunt's death. rather to be poor, happy and breathing.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:58 AM
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That's for sure, but he and his sister did become very close to Elizabeth...I wonder did she think of them of siblings, she never aknowledged them as such though.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:15 AM
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I suppose there's no real way to establish the Carey/Tudor connection firmly today, but it certainly is an interesting question. And, if I'm sorting things out right, if Catherine Carey was indeed Henry VIII's child, that would mean that Prince William would be the first monarch since Elizabeth I to be descended from Henry VIII, right?
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  #340  
Old 06-09-2009, 11:40 AM
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Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was descended from Catherine Carey through her great-grandmother, Anne Caroline Salisbury, which makes Queen Elizabeth II the first Monarch with Henry VIII's blood (if Catherine was indeed Henry's daughter).
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