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  #301  
Old 05-06-2009, 04:51 PM
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While Henry was okay with making Henry FitzRoy a duke, and might have considered him to be a potential King in the making...considering the times of the day and the fact that there were questions regarding the legitimacy of the Tudor throne...to make sure everything was neat and legal....Henry would have perferred a legitimate son.
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  #302  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:13 PM
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Could you please provide a source for this statement? I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously considered arranging marriage between brother and sister in a 16th-century-Christian-kingdom

I think it was some contemporary of Henry VIII, maybe an ambassador who was speculating who said this. It was never seriously considered, it was just gossip back then. But it did exist as gossip/ speculation. I thought Antonia Fraser's book on Henry's wives mentions it, but I'm not certain. I've read a lot on the Tudors.
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  #303  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Henry would have perferred a legitimate son.
Nobody is disputing that. We are discussing who would've Henry VIII preffered as his heir: a legitimate daughter (Mary) or an illegitimate son (Fitzroy). It seems that all agree that Mary would be the winner.
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  #304  
Old 05-06-2009, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Angel View Post
I think it was some contemporary of Henry VIII, maybe an ambassador who was speculating who said this. It was never seriously considered, it was just gossip back then. But it did exist as gossip/ speculation. I thought Antonia Fraser's book on Henry's wives mentions it, but I'm not certain. I've read a lot on the Tudors.
I think I've read it, too, but I must have thought it was a mistake by the author. A pretty audacious idea (and I'm glad that never happened).
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  #305  
Old 05-06-2009, 08:37 PM
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I know Mary would never have accepted it. What's interesting here is that Henry was quite concerned with the legitimacy of his heirs, yet he had Mary and Elizabeth both declared bastards after his marriages to their respective mothers didn't work out. That was of course after he had his son and heir and didn't need to worry about his daughters and the sucession. Also, Catholics could never accept Elizabeth as legitimate given that they thought Henry was never properly divorced from Catharine of Aragon. I believe Edward was always regarded as legitimate by everyone though since he was born after the deaths of both of his father's previous wives.
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  #306  
Old 05-07-2009, 02:02 AM
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That was the point, Henry declared his daughters bastards when he had a son or still had hopes of having a son. Mary was made to curtsy to her sister Elizabeth when all was going well with Henry and Anne and there was still the possibility she, Anne, could be the mother of the future King of England.
Henry wanted and needed a legitimate son, I think that underneath it all he wanted to forget how the Tudorīs came to the throne, and by looking to the future and imagining a long line of legitimate sons and descendants he could do this.
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  #307  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:00 PM
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He also wanted an legitimate heir for England and knew that was the only way his country as well as dynasty was secure. Edward was indeed the heir, but he died young after Henry's death and England ended up being the most secure under Elizabeth, a woman and also someone who in some people's eyes was not of legitimate birth. Interesting how history turns out- the two things Henry didn't want in an heir was a female heir of doubtful legitimacy ( in some quarters), yet that
's what saved England.
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  #308  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:03 PM
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It is rather interesting that it was Elizabeth that turned out to be the successful daughter, rather than Mary. I would think that Elizabeth would have been more traumatized by her mother's fate, and she lacked the inspiration that Mary would have had from a more glorious genealogy.

Maybe it's Elizabeth's more pragmatic attitude that made her a successful queen? I think Mary's reign was probably doomed by the Spanish marriage, and her marital choices were limited by her close ties to the Roman Church.
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  #309  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:24 PM
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I think it simply came down to personality, actually. Elizabeth simply had a stronger personality more suited to ruling. Edward would have made a okay king, I'm sure, but Elizabeth was defintely the most qualified to rule England of Henry's children, given her personality. Mary was simply too rigid and had been through too much in her life to make her a good ruler.
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  #310  
Old 05-07-2009, 03:45 PM
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I think you're right about Mary, Grace Angel. Rigid and traumatized sums up Mary. Poor Edward died too young to really be sure what he could have been.
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  #311  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by iowabelle View Post
It is rather interesting that it was Elizabeth that turned out to be the successful daughter, rather than Mary. I would think that Elizabeth would have been more traumatized by her mother's fate. Church.
Perhaps she was too young to have it affect her that way. Naturally when she was old enough to learn what had happened she realised that anyone could be accused and executed and she spent a long time in fear that that would be her fate with a spell in the Tower to make it even more real to her.
What relief she must have felt when she finally found herself Queen, and a wonderful Queen she was too.
Edward, if I remember rightly had TB, so must have spent a lot of time being unwell, I believe he was very intelligent and studious but constantly ill.
We have to remember the wonderful education that Elizabeth had which for a girl was very unusual for those times. This must have been given her by her father so perhaps he realised her potential.
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  #312  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:35 PM
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Learning was regarded as important for upper class women in Henry VIII's England is my impression. Katharine Parr was also an influence on Elizabeth's education- she was somewhat intellectual and interested in religious questions. Mary was educated by her mother Catharine of Aragon, who followed the ideas of Juan Louis Vives a Spanish intellectual, so Mary wasn't badly educated at all, just not educated as well as Elizabeth.
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  #313  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:41 PM
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I get the impression that Henry VIII was rather neglectful parent, except for when it came to Edward. Poor Mary was more or less banished, until the Jane Seymour years. I don't think her domestic life was great from Jane's death to Katherine Parr's arrival... and the same for Elizabeth. I'm betting Katherine Parr was the one most responsible for Elizabeth's education. (wikipedia says it was Kat Ashley who made the arrangements for her early education, but would she have had the authority or knowledge to do so on her own?)

I was trying to figure out where Edward grew up before he became king... not at court usually and apparently not usually with Elizabeth either... but I don't know for sure.
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  #314  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:46 PM
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Edward was quite well educated too- that seemed to have been his fathers idea. Of course, kings were always well educated ( at least during the Renaissance), as was Henry himself. I think Henry did want his daughters well educated although he left Mary's education to her mother, and as for Elizabeth, seems to have approved of her being well educated, I'm sure, but may not have had much of a direct hand in it. I know that tutor of Elizabeth's - his first name was William, and I can't remember the 2nd name, was a big influence on her education. Katharine Parr was too.
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  #315  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:55 PM
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William Ascham, maybe?

I think Catherine of Aragon did a good job with her daughter's education, involving Erasmus and Juan Luis Vives. Unfortunately, what Mary needed was the ability to be adaptable, and that she didn't get from her mother.
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  #316  
Old 05-07-2009, 04:59 PM
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It seems that Elizabeth shared her brotherīs tutor and that she was considered brilliant when only 6 years old. When Katherine Parr came into her life she was already 10 years old and although Katherine would have had influence on the way she was educated it started long before that. They both, brother and sister, lived and were taught at Hatfield.
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  #317  
Old 05-07-2009, 05:09 PM
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I knew that Elizabeth was associated with Hatfield but hadn't heard that about Edward (maybe it's because he's sort of eclipsed by his sisters?).
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  #318  
Old 05-07-2009, 07:59 PM
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All three of the Tudor children were intelligent and well educated, but Edward and Elizabeth more so than Mary, whose educational was more traditional, but who was also somewhat less intellectual than either Edward or Elizabeth. Certainly, the fact that all three of Henry's children were well educated and intelligent, particularly the two youngest is interesting. The intelligence must have come from Henry, since both Edward and Elizabeth, as well as Mary, had different mothers, and Henry was a notably well educated and intelligent man. Does anyone know the intelligence or education of Henry Fitzroy, at all?
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  #319  
Old 05-07-2009, 08:00 PM
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Mary was educated, she just let, imo, the religion get in her way.
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  #320  
Old 05-07-2009, 10:21 PM
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But the way she was educated was very religious based, since Catharine of Aragon was a pious woman, and certainly followed the Catholic church. Elizabeth and Edward's education was more Protestant but also perhaps more secular. Mary though also had a personality that used religion the wrong way, while Elizabeth used it the right way. Edward was also quite rigid about religion, from what we know of him ( since he died young), but about a different religion, Protestantism.
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