Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Lady Meg]

...Mary had "submitted" to Henry in 1536, acknowledging his position as head of the Church of England, among other things. After Jane Seymour's death, Mary was permitted to live in the royal residences and was granted her own household again.

Did Mary have to sign something to come back to court? Was she upset with herself after doing this? Since she was such a devout Catholic, it must have been hard to submit to the belief that her father was head of the church.

 

[redrose_2121]

I thought that Mary had to sign a document acknowledging that her mother and father's marriage was invalid and always had been, and that she herself was a bastard. I'm sure she felt horrible about it. It probably haunted her for the rest of her life. Even though she signed it after her mother's death, I'm sure she felt that she had betrayed her mother, herself, and her own religion. I don't think she would have done it if she did not think it was absolutely necessary, but I don't think that made it any easier for her. She was probably advised to do it to avoid unnecessary conflict with her father. She might actually have been thinking way ahead. If she didn't sign it, there was not chance that she would ever be queen most likely, even if her father didn't have a male heir in the future, and she would have wanted to be queen to restore Catholicism later on.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

From a legal point of view, and being Henry's daughter, I am sure Mary rationalized that the document was void since she signed it under duress and not of her free will. Henry often came up with rationalizations for not validating treaties he had signed.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

The document she signed on 22 June 1536 was a formal "submission", in which she begged pardon of the king whom she had "obstinately and disobediently offended", renounced "the Bishop of Rome's pretended authority", and acknowledged the marriage between her father and mother to have been contrary to the law of God. And she only signed it after being placed under extreme pressure by Cromwell.

It should be noted, that Mary signed this paper without reading it. By the advice of Chapuys, the imperial ambassador, she made a private protestation that she had signed it under compulsion. She surely did this knowing that Chapuys would relay it to both the Emperor and the Pope in Rome, thereby attesting her loyalty to the Catholic faith.

It should also be noted that Mary was not restored to the succession until 14 July 1543, when the Third Succession Act was passed by Parliament. Henry was by then married to his last wife, Catherine Parr.

 

[persian85033]

I've always wondered if Henry ever did really love any of his wives.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I think he must have loved Katherine of Aragon at one time and undoubtedly loved, or lusted, for Anne Boleyn. Jane Seymour may have been a calm alternative to Anne and perhaps Henry merely sought a consort who could, and would, produce a male heir. Anne of Cleves was a disastrous (at least for Henry) marriage of convenience, and he probably lusted for Katherine Howard. As for Parr, maybe Henry at last just wanted a companion.

 

[redrose_2121]

I think Henry really loved Jane Seymour. Many historians think so, simply because of the fact that he waited for 2 years after her death to remarry, and also, he didn't really want to think about remarrying after her death for a long while. I think he also sort of loved Katherine Howard in his own way, because she made him feel young again. He took the fact that she was cheating on him extremely hard.

 

[Russophile]

I've always wondered if Henry ever did really love any of his wives.

I think he was more in love with being in love than with the person.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I've always wondered if Henry ever did really love any of his wives.

I don't know if he was capable of "love" in the way that a husband should love his wife. If you love your wife, you don't discard her for the next pretty thing if she can't bear you a son or if her looks start to fade. You don't make up rumors about them and have them executed.

Henry was more in love with the idea of being married than he was with the women he was marrying.

 

[Royal Fan]

Anyone see that recent Documentary of him on National Geographic Inside the body of Henry VIII or something?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

No but it sounds from the documentary's title that it speculated about the general state of his health and maybe how his corpulence hastened Henry's death.

 

[Duchessmary]

I did! It was pretty interesting, especially when one of the researchers did the grocery shopping for Henry VIII!! OMG. It's amazing he lived as long as he did. Interesting, but too much speculation.

 

[persian85033]

Do you know where I can buy it?

 

[Duchessmary]

Go to natgeotv.com. I would say you should find it there.

 

[persian85033]

Thanks. Though, is it available on dvd?

BTW, did Jane Seymour die in childbirth, or did she die afterwards? Like, did they not take care of her, having her go to her son's christenings right afterward and all that?

 

[Duchessmary]

She died about 11 days after giving birth from a massive infection.

 

[Russophile]

Thanks. Though, is it available on dvd?

BTW, did Jane Seymour die in childbirth, or did she die afterwards? Like, did they not take care of her, having her go to her son's christenings right afterward and all that?

It's not like they did not take care of her per say, they did not know HOW to take care of her. An infection was rather lethal back then. Children died of ear infections which these days we have the "little pink bottle" in the fridge to take care of that.

 

[redrose_2121]

Actually, I don't think Jane attended Edward's christening.

 

[Ladygodiva]

Thanks. Though, is it available on dvd?

BTW, did Jane Seymour die in childbirth, or did she die afterwards? Like, did they not take care of her, having her go to her son's christenings right afterward and all that?

It was firbidden for a woman of nobility to attend their childs christening in those days. They called it "laying in" and it lasted around 30 days. Because of infant mortality rates babies were christened as soon as possible, so the Godmother normally attended on behalf of the mother. The images of Jane apparently attending her sons christening are thought to be Gertrude Blount, Marchioness of Exeter.


Henry VIII is fascinating to me. I've spent so many years researching into his reign in particular. In reply to the first post, Henry's marriage to Catherine was legal. At the time Catherine married his brother they were both young and rarely unaccompanied by guardians. In addition to this, Arthur was very poorly and many historians have provided proof that his father Henry had suggested he would have to bed her himself in order for her to concieve. Aside from this, Henry VIII wanted to do right by her and had much in common with her. Don't forget that Catherine was a well educated, beautiful Spanish princess - everyone wanted her. She came from a long line of nobility and fertility. By marrying her he secured Spanish alliances and had high chances of male heirs (although that didn't map out)...
The pope sent a dispentation proclaiming that her first marriage was unconsumated (that's what it all came down to). It didn't matter that she was married, the bible only said "laying" with you brothers wife meant no children...which was silly considering Mary was alive and well. It's well known that the whole charade was based around Henry's desire to have a child with Ann Boleyn. He even offered to make any child they had legitamate if Ann dropped her desire to be queen!

If you read into his relationships with all his wives you'll see a pattern of him tiring of his wives having an opinion, and not having male heirs. Through it all though he was married to Catherine for 24 years (before the situation arose), there's no doubt that he really did love her, he just loved the idea of a non stop tudor reign more.

 

[windsorbrides1]

A few things:

Princess Mary was baby Edward's Godmother and Princess Elizabeth carried the christening cloth they wiped the baby's head with.

Actually, according to documents of the time, Prince Arthur is definitely believed to have consummated the marriage. There were many signs, including the fact that Katherine was moved extremely carefully after he died to another palace in case she might be pregnant. They would not have taken those measures if they thought she had no chance of being pregnant. Also, the Pope was not even sure and issued the dispensation stating that the marriage "might have been consummated." The Spanish Ambassador also wrote King Ferdinand that the marriage had been consummated. It was Katherine's "Duella" , a woman who acted sort of as a nanny to a child and a chaperone to a young woman, who wrote the king and told him his daughter's marriage had not been consummated. However, the Duella's letter is suspect because it would ahve kept Katherine in her sphere of influence and therefore employed.

Also, the Castille women did NOT have a good record of Fertility at all. In fact Katherine's sisters children were mostly all stillborn or died soon after birth. Henry would have known this before marrying Katherine.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But wouldn't people just assume that the marriage had been consummated by virtue of the couple sleeping together after the ceremony? I mean, did the Court conduct some sort of contemporary inspection which led them to conclude, while Arthur was living, that the marriage had been consummated? If not, then the fact that Katherine was moved carefully to another location was probably evidence of the Court just taking necessary precautions to ensure the child's safety if she was indeed pregnant, not that they believed she was pregnant or that they definitely knew the marriage had been consummated.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I would assume, if I were in the position of the court, that if they slept together the night they married, that would mean the marriage had been consumated.
I remember watching the film Marie Antoinette, and every morning after the couple woke, they were asked, had they consumated the marriage yet.
I am sure Henry's advisers would have asked similar questions.

 

[persian85033]

Also, the Castille women did NOT have a good record of Fertility at all. In fact Katherine's sisters children were mostly all stillborn or died soon after birth. Henry would have known this before marrying Katherine.

True, Isabella only had one, and he died, but Juana had six who lived. Maria had six, who lived, too. They may have had more who died or were stillborns, but they did each have six. Two of Juana's were emperors and four became queen. Or queen consorts, rather.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I would assume, if I were in the position of the court, that if they slept together the night they married, that would mean the marriage had been consumated.
I remember watching the film Marie Antoinette, and every morning after the couple woke, they were asked, had they consumated the marriage yet.
I am sure Henry's advisers would have asked similar questions.

Exactly! Was there any evidence that such questions were asked of the royal couple? And if so, how could the questioners be assured the royal couple knew what "consummation" meant? Today, any teenager has a good idea of what consummation would entail but I am sure there are some innocents out there who don't know and back in Arthur's time, he and Katherine would be expected to be ignorant of sex. Katherine surely would be expected to be ignorant of sex, being female and her family needing to protect her virginity for dynastic reasons.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't know if questions were asked but the is an often quoted comment from Arthur that the morning after the wedding he supposedly said 'I have spent the night in Spain' which is often taken to mean that he believed that the marriage had been consummated.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I have heard the supposed statement "I have spent the night in Spain" but often wondered if Arthur really said that (was he that sophisticated or even witty to make such a statement as a teenager?) or if it was made up by a courtier to support Henry's later argument that his brother consummated the marriage with Katherine.

 

[persian85033]

I would say it was made up. I don't think he was as you said, that sophisticated or witty.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I have heard the supposed statement "I have spent the night in Spain" but often wondered if Arthur really said that (was he that sophisticated or even witty to make such a statement as a teenager?) or if it was made up by a courtier to support Henry's later argument that his brother consummated the marriage with Katherine.

It has always struck me as the sort of comment that others have said about their wedding nights and he said the same thing e.g. a friend marries a girl from say York and says 'I spent the night in York' to his friends the next day, Arthur heard it and then repeated the comment with appropriate changes after his night. Comments like this don't have to be original. The conversations seem to have been more bawdy then than today and thus he may very well have said it without truly meaning that the marriage was consummated but more that he had spent the night with her.

I have always believed that the marriage was consummated mainly because people lived much closer to nature then and therefore even protected girls knew more about what to do from basic observation of the world around them and therefore these two knew what was expected. Yes I do believe that Katherine of Aragon would lie about something like that when it was obvious that she wasn't pregnant in order to maintain the position of future Queen - she would know that if she admitted consumation then no Queen of England for her and that is what she believed was her destiny.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Your thoughts on Arthur's alleged comments make sense. It appears teenage boys have changed little through the centuries. And I certainly believe that Katherine may have lied but do you really believe Katherine understood what intercourse entailed at that time? While commoners may have lived closer to nature and understood what was going on in the marital bed, would the same be true of a woman raised in a wealthy and royal household? I think that Katherine may have been sheltered and people just expected the two of them to work out how children come to be. Certainly, no one expected Arthur to die so young and some might have expected that one day a child would come from Arthur and Katherine as they matured.

 

[georgiea]

Comments like this don't have to be original. The conversations seem to have been more bawdy then than today and thus he may very well have said it without truly meaning that the marriage was consummated but more that he had spent the night with her.

Agreed Iluvbertie with above comment.

I have always believed that the marriage was consummated mainly because people lived much closer to nature then and therefore even protected girls knew more about what to do from basic observation of the world around them and therefore these two knew what was expected. Yes I do believe that Katherine of Aragon would lie about something like that when it was obvious that she wasn't pregnant in order to maintain the position of future Queen - she would know that if she admitted consumation then no Queen of England for her and that is what she believed was her destiny.

I believe the marriage was consummated because that is what a royal marriage is arranged for-heirs. Queen Katherine not only would have given up a title, but her daughter, Princess Mary would be a bastard. I try to think the best of a person and I think the Queen loved her daughter too much for that to happen. I think if she just had herself to worry about maybe she would have bent to King Henry's wishes for an annulment and a settlement like Ann of Cleves.