Henry VIII and Wives (1491-1547)

[iowabelle]

I would assume that most people are as woefully ignorant of their history as Americans are. (The only exception I have observed is among the Chinese graduate students I've met, who don't understand why Americans complain about having to learn a mere roughly 500 years of history.)

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

I've always wondered: how much of British history do children learn in British schools? I mean, the British history itself is rich, let alone the rest of the history of Europe and Asia. So, how much details of British history were you taught? Did you need learn all the British monarchs by heart and such things?

It seems to depend on the type of school and which year. I went to public school and we learned names, dates, the times, as they were then understood/known. The British dominance and misuse of other nations was glossed over, luckily, I had a brilliant Professor he was more than happy to 'spill the beans'. I have to say most of it gets forgotten the older you get, clearly I can't speak for other schools in modern times.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Kotroman

I've always wondered: how much of British history do children learn in British schools? I mean, the British history itself is rich, let alone the rest of the history of Europe and Asia. So, how much details of British history were you taught? Did you need learn all the British monarchs by heart and such things?

Here is an interesting web site of nursery rhymes that children were taught for their history.
Nursery Rhymes lyrics, origins and history

[Emeralds and Opals]

'Exciting discovery' reveals Henry VIII as firm believer in Catholicism - Telegraph

[iowabelle]

Originally Posted by Emeralds and Opals

'Exciting discovery' reveals Henry VIII as firm believer in Catholicism - Telegraph

I don't see what's so exciting about this discovery. H8 was "Defender of the Faith" after all. And it wasn't so much that H8 was against the Church of Rome as that he was for H8.

And I think it's a bit much to expect a teenaged prince to have fully developed religious views.

[Grace Angel]

I agree that when he was younger he believed in traditional Roman Catholicism. In fact, he wrote a book ( I suppose it was actually ghostwritten, but it had his name on it and he argreed with it) against Martin Luther/heresy I believe. I never doubted that he did believe in traditional Roman Catholicism. The only reason he ever broke with the church was because he wanted to be his own authority and not accept the pope's authority, in regards to in particular, his marriage to Catharine of Aragon, which he wanted ended. When the pope was relunctant to do this, partly because the pope was a prisoner of Catharine's nephew Emperior Charles V, Henry had had it. His break with Roman Catholicism was never about religious doubts. It might never have happened, in fact, had Catharine of Aragon given him a male heir.

[Kotroman]

I understand that Henry VIII broke off with Roman Catholicism, but never with Catholicism. That's why Anne of Cleves had to convert to Catholicism and that's why Catherine Parr hid her interest in Protestantism. Am I right?

[Grace Angel]

Yes, that's true. He broke with the pope and abolished monasteries and the like ( so he could sieze the church's wealth, it was all about him), but he remained Catholic, just not Roman. So the article really revealed little that was new as he never really had eligious differences with the church. To him, it was all about who the power belonged to.

[iowabelle]

I don't think you can be a traditional Roman Catholic without acknowledging the supremacy of the Pope. That's a key.

[Grace Angel]

I don't think he had any issues with the Pope either though before he wanted a divorce from Catharine of Aragon. The Pope actually thought he was a good Catholic monarch before that, and was pleased with his book against Luther. Henry was always very interested in theological issues even more so than usual in the 16th century, long before he broke with Rome.

[Skydragon]

Salacious details of how Anne Boleyn was said to have cheated on Henry VIII with her own brother are contained in documents which have been put on the internet for the first time

Salacious claims of Anne Boleyn's incest in Henry VIII documents placed online - Telegraph

[Al_bina]

I agree with the article stating that the reasons, which prompted Henry VIII to get rid of Anne Bolyen, will remain unclear. It is amazing that he spared no effort to marry her and then just tossed her away as if she were of no importance at all.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

I agree with the article stating that the reasons, which prompted Henry VIII to get rid of Anne Bolyen, will remain unclear. It is amazing that he spared no effort to marry her and then just tossed her away as if she were of no importance at all.

Because her main purpose was to breed an heir.

[Al_bina]

You are right ... but still why to resort to a complicated judicial process followed by an execution to get rid of a wife? Does it mean that he never had sincere feelings for Anne in the first place? He could have divorced her or got rid of her in a less painful way.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

You are right ... but still why to resort to a complicated judicial process followed by an execution to get rid of a wife? Does it mean that he never had sincere feeling for Anne in the first place? He could have divorced her or got rid of her in a less painful way.

Maybe because he rocked the world by divorcing already and she was still alive (not for long though)?

[Ella Kay]

I think part of the reason that he had her executed was to make sure that any children born to a subsequent marriage would be unquestionably legitimate. He divorced Katharine of Aragon, but those who didn't believe that he had the right to divorce his wife considered Elizabeth illegitimate.

Having Anne executed solved the problem simply (albeit horribly) for Henry. And since she wasn't a foreign princess, he didn't have to risk any international alliances by doing so. When he married Jane Seymour, both his previous spouses were dead, and so there were no grounds for calling Edward illegitimate.

[Al_bina]

I see your points. At the same time, Henry VIII allowed to drag the name of a woman he once loved through the mud. He could have used some other method ... "accidents could happen" method, which would not tarnish her name, to physically remove Anne Bolyen. It appears that he needed an official setting to throw Anne out of his life.

[Ella Kay]

I think the "official setting" part was key. Because the execution was "public" (I think it was inside the Tower, so it wasn't as much of a spectacle, but there were still many witnesses), there could be no question that she was dead. Otherwise he'd have been dealing with rumors that Anne was still the true queen, alive, somewhere, and that could have led to problems politically (and with the legitimacy of Edward).

It's still a disgusting piece of history, Al_bina, you're right about that.

[Al_bina]

Right you are ...

[Grace Angel]

I think he loved Anne, in the letters he wrote her before they were married, he seems genuinely affectionate. But, he was the kind of person who loved himself the most. Perhaps one reason why her end was so bad, with all the lies he had said about her and then having her executed, was because he did honestly love her and then her not having the male heir was just too much of a blow. Sometimes they say that with great love goes great hate. Just my theory. But I also agree he wanted his children to be unquestionably legitimate ( any children who came after his marriage to Anne) and that was the real reason, as everyone said.