Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Pranter]

I think what Henry wanted from the Pope was simple, his marriage to Katherine put aside in the eyes of the Church so that he could marry Anne. Had the Pope cooperated Henry would IMO have been perfectly happy to continue with Roman Catholicism and all its accompanying rituals.

i have read that Mary left huge debts which Elizabeth had to pay off. Elizabeth was the reverse of extravagant and kept to a strict annual budget all her reign. So no, an elaborate tomb for her father was not on the cards.

Until Anne didn't have a son....then he'd of wanted another decree of nullity....and most likely things would of ended up just as they did.


LaRae

 

[MaiaMia_53]

If you look at the documentary I linked above, it was the head injuries and leg injuries and resulting chronic illnesses and infections, as well as the doctors' brutal treatments of that time (including blood-letting by leeches) that led to Henry VIII being in a terrible physical state, with constant pain. His head injuries impacted the part of his brain which affects the personality and mental states.

It was the second head injury Henry suffered after being crushed by a horse that led to him losing consciousness for over an hour. From then on, his intemperate and cruel personality change was noted. In fact, he was expected to die, but he survived. Worst of all, when pregnant Anne Boleyn heard about the terrible accident Henry had suffered, she ended up miscarrying her first baby, and it was a boy. As we know, Boleyn eventually gave birth to another child, a girl destined to become one of the greatest Queens of England, but at what price!

Per the documentary, Henry was so bloated and diseased by the time of his death, his corpse actually exploded in the coffin during the burial.

 

[Curryong]

'Why Henry doesn't have a tomb'

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.c...ry-viii-buried-and-why-doesnt-he-have-a-tomb/

This is a quite interesting account, and includes the watercolour of the intact coffin of Jane Seymour and the badly damaged coffin of Henry VIII, re-discovered when a new vault was dug in 1813.

 

[MaiaMia_53]

In 1536, when Anne Boleyn was pregnant with her son (who was stillborn).

I believe that was the accident in which Henry was crushed by a horse and suffered what was likely a severe concussion. Henry had suffered a much earlier head injury as a younger man while jousting. He had forgotten to pull down his visor to cover his forehead and eyes. Barrelling forward with his horse, he was struck in the head over his eye by his competitor's lance.

The terrible medical and health conditions and lack of sanitation described in the documentary that existed during those times, is horrifying.

I do believe there was folk knowledge available regarding herbal (plant) remedies and homeopathic practices, but people in Europe of that time, likely attributed those practices to witchcraft. Much of Europe was backwards for a long time regarding sanitation and cleanliness. As well, many of the medical treatments administered by doctors were horrific. Even in the U.S., it wasn't until after the Civil War and thousands of needless deaths attributed to avoidable infection, that medical doctors began to slowly adopt sterilization of instruments and hands before conducting surgical procedures.

 

[Lucy63]

It still boggles my mind that for centuries it was considered standard practice to bleed people when they were ill, regardless of how weak they were, what was wrong, even when pregnant or after giving birth. They thought they were “draining off excess blood” . Poor Princess Charlotte went through hell via her doctor during the birth that killed her and the next heir. And Henry was tortured by his doctors on a regular basis.

I have seen the doc about Henry’s body. He likely would have been diagnosed with diabetes as well as high blood pressure and other modern conditions. Brain damage is possible from his accident but also the constant pain in his leg could have contributed to his temper.

 

[Gawin]

It still boggles my mind that for centuries it was considered standard practice to bleed people when they were ill, regardless of how weak they were, what was wrong, even when pregnant or after giving birth. They thought they were “draining off excess blood” . Poor Princess Charlotte went through hell via her doctor during the birth that killed her and the next heir. And Henry was tortured by his doctors on a regular basis.

I have seen the doc about Henry’s body. He likely would have been diagnosed with diabetes as well as high blood pressure and other modern conditions. Brain damage is possible from his accident but also the constant pain in his leg could have contributed to his temper.

Maybe the doctors who tortured him were women in disguise. [emoji1]

 

[CyrilVladisla]

With his second and third marriages, King Henry VIII had not made a marriage for political advantages with a foreign princess. After Catherine of Aragon, would it not have been better if King Henry had wed a foreign princess?

Woolsey certainly wanted him to marry a French Princess and not Anne.


LaRae

Who was the French Princess and who was her father?

 

[Curryong]

Henry was desperately in love with Anne Boleyn whom he'd wished to marry for years. After all the trouble he had gone to in shedding Katherine, leaving her in inadequate and unhealthy surroundings in the hope that she would die (which she did) I think the last thing on Henry's mind was marriage to a foreign princess.

And where is the guarantee that a union with a foreigner would go any better than marriages number two, four and five? After all, the union with Anne of Cleves wasn't exactly a huge success. I do think that Henry preferred to marry his subjects, and women that he got to know (or thought he did) at court before proposing.

 

[Pranter]

Woolsey certainly wanted him to marry a French Princess and not Anne.


LaRae

 

[Lucy63]

With his second and third marriages, King Henry VIII had not made a marriage for political advantages with a foreign princess. After Catherine of Aragon, would it not have been better if King Henry had wed a foreign princess?

Woolsey thought he was clearing the way for a French marriage when he battled to get Henry's original marriage annulled. He was stunned to learn that Henry was determined to marry Anne. And by the time he was done with Anne, he was already “in love” with Jane so his ministers could not alter his decision. Henry finally agreed to a foreign match when Jane died, though reluctantly. And when that failed spectaculary, it was no more foreign matches for him. If he could not rely on portraits, he would not risk being displeased again. Also, not many foreign princesses were lining up to marry him by then. Even before Katherine Howard was executed, Cromwell was having trouble finding any interest.

But yes...generally a foreign match was deemed better for England, for the alliance as well as to prevent any English family being raised too high. At least by the ministers...the people of England certainly did not want foreign matches for female sovereigns. They mostly hated Mary for taking Philip of Spain.

 

[Lucy63]

Woolsey wanted Henry to marry a daughter of the French king...not sure of her name.

 

[Pranter]

Who was the French Princess and who was her father?

I believe the King was Francois I and it was his sister Margaret de Valois.



LaRae

 

[An Ard Ri]

I believe the King was Francois I and it was his sister Margaret de Valois.



LaRae

Marguerite d'Angoulême was already married to Henri II of Navarre by 1525,prior to that she was married to Charles Duc d'Alencon.

It might have been Renée of France daughter of Louis XII,born in 1510?

 

[Pranter]

Marguerite d'Angoulême was already married to Henri II of Navarre by 1525,prior to that she was married to Charles Duc d'Alencon.

It might have been Renée of France daughter of Louis XII,born in 1510?

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

 

[Gawin]

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

Wolsey wanted Henry to marry Renee of France, daughter of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, and younger sister of Queen Claude, first wife of Francis I. It was Renee who married the Duke of Ferrara in 1528, not Francis's sister Marguerite.

Incidentally, Renee was (1) the stepdaughter of Henry's sister Mary who was briefly married to Louis XII, and (2) the daughter-in-law of Lucrezia Borgia.

 

[Pranter]

It was Renee I was referring to that was married to the Duke of Ferrara.


LaRae

 

[Countessmeout]

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

But we have to remember Henry was looking for an annulment years before Catherine died. In 1527 he was already talking divorce. Wolseley indeed suggested Renee who didn't marry the Duke until a year later.

Later on his life, other French princesses woukd come up. Marie of Guise and her two sisters came up as well.

 

[Gawin]

It was Renee I was referring to that was married to the Duke of Ferrara.


LaRae

Oops, sorry, that's what happens when I skim through the posts!

 

[An Ard Ri]

There were may available French Princess c1528

Renée de France,daughter of Louis XII ,(1510 – 1574)
Isabella de Navarre ,sister of Henri II de Navarre (1512–1555)
Marie de Guise (1515-1560)
Louise de Guise (1520-1542)
Marie de Bourbon (1515–1538) daughter of the Duc de Vendôme
Marguerite de Bourbon (1516-1589) daughter of the Duc de Vendôme
Madeleine de Bourbon (1521–1561)

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Was Madeleine de Bourbon the daughter of the Duc de Vendome?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Was Madeleine de Bourbon the daughter of the Duc de Vendome?

Yes she was the daughter of Charles, Duke of Vendôme and Françoise d'Alençon
,one of their sons,Antoine de Bourbon married Jeanne d'Albret future queen of Navarre.

 

[Lucy63]

I have a BBC version ofHenry& Wives on today in the background and even all these centuries later, have to admit to to sympathy for poor Katherine Howard above all the others. Foolish she was, no doubt...but she was engineered into that marriage by many powerful men for their own uses, without any of the knowledge, maturity or intelligence to handle it. And looking around at the teenage girls I know now, I cringe to think of any of them taking on such a role and likely not doing much better.

I know Anne is thought to be guilty, while Katherine clearly wasn’t, yet I still feel worse for Katherine somehow. Anne at least was a mature woman and had not always behaved well or kindly, especially to Catherine A. Or Mary, and she did say some foolish things. Granted, her death was a set-up and she did not deserve execution. Yet poor foolish silly Katherine...at least as she has come down to us...I just have to shake my head.

 

[Carin]

I think probably a foreign prince or duke etc...to make an alliance, but I doubt Henry would have named her succesor until he knew for certain no boys would come...so she likely would have stayed unmarried for a while anyway.

It has always amazed me that Henry VIII did not try to marry his daughter Mary to his nephew James V. James and Mary could have produced children who would have reigned over England and Scotland.

 

[Curryong]

It has always amazed me that Henry VIII did not try to marry his daughter Mary to his nephew James V. James and Mary could have produced children who would have reigned over England and Scotland.

Henry did want his son Edward to marry Mary Queen of Scots, though, which would have produced the same result. However the betrothal was broken off by the Scots, to Henry's fury.

5 Fascinating Facts about King Henry VIII’s son, King Edward VI — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Henry did want his son Edward to marry Mary Queen of Scots, though, which would have produced the same result. However the betrothal was broken off by the Scots, to Henry's fury.

Who exactly among the Scots broke off the betrothal of Mary, Queen of Scots to Prince Edward?

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Treaty of Greenwich which proposed the union fell apart after Henry had impounded several Scottish merchant vessels which vexed Cardinal Beaton and the Earl of Arran who then looked back towards a French royal match ,the queen dowager,Marie de Guise was against it from the start.

 

[Lucy63]

Speaking of Catherine...she had deluded herself into thinking it was only Woolsey who had “made” Henry set her aside. Then when he died, she had to blame Anne. She took Mary along with her in these delusions. She seemed to think if she declared she was still queen enough times, it would be so, and Henry would hang his head and return to her.

But as Mary found out after Anne’s execution, Henry was just as firm and hostile as Anne had been in regards to the succession and the marriage to Anne being recognized. Neither dared blame Henry even to themselves. Yet if they knew him at all, they had to know that he did nothing that he did not want to do.

Also when Anne said that Mary was her death and she was Mary’s...at least according to history...it was really Catherine who was her death. Henry would not have dared execute Anne while Catherline lived, for fear he would be pressured or expected to return to Catherine and/or have a future marriage seen as invalid by his realm. Once Catherine was dead, he was free to do his worst.

 

[Pranter]

She declared herself to be Queen because she was the Queen. Just because Harry got dissident clergy to declare him divorced does not mean he was actually divorced. According to his own Church (before he founded the new one) he was not divorced nor did he receive a decree of nullity and therefore was not free to marry. When you look at it from that perspective (and that would of been Catherines) she was still his lawful wife and the Queen.



LaRae

 

[Gawin]

She declared herself to be Queen because she was the Queen. Just because Harry got dissident clergy to declare him divorced does not mean he was actually divorced. According to his own Church (before he founded the new one) he was not divorced nor did he receive a decree of nullity and therefore was not free to marry. When you look at it from that perspective (and that would of been Catherines) she was still his lawful wife and the Queen.



LaRae

Exactly. Catherine believed she was Henry's wife in the eyes of God. Not calling herself Queen would be a lie, something she refused to do, as a woman with strong religious convictions.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Instead of getting dressed up and throwing a party as she did when Catherine's death was announced, Anne should have fled the country.

With Catherine out of the way, Henry was no longer in the position of having two living ex-wives...he could get rid of Anne as Lucy63 pointed out.

Indeed, Anne miscarried a son on the day of Catherine's funeral and was executed less than 5 months later.

It almost seems karmic.