Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Curryong]

John Lascelles, the Protestant reformer, stated that his sister telling him about Queen Catherine's promiscuity in her grandmother's household was because of his suggestion that Mary ask for a position as one of the Queen's ladies. How do we know that is true however? He had disdain for Catherine and wanted a more reform-minded monarch.

Perhaps Mary told her brother what she knew of Catherine's lifestyle as a young teenager because she shared his goal of getting a new Queen consort, and knew that he would tell all to Cranmer. I think Mary was probably very straitlaced and didn't approve of Catherine's behavior at the time of her own employment in the Duchess's household. It seems to have been a not well-supervised house to say the least, and probably Mary felt it was for the best that the King was told.

 

[Denville]

Its possible that Lassels did think of his sister getting a post with Katherine. Unless Mary Hall had told him earlier, he didn't know that she was sexually active... and possibly unfaithful to the King.. so he may not have thought of replacing her. K was young and Henry adored her, so while Protestants might have liked a Protestatnt queen, I am not sure if most of them thought it was possible to get rid of the Catholic Katherine.
So he may have suggested she looked for a post in the household as other girls from the Norfolk household had done.. and Mary H had a genuine revulsion from Kath because she knew of her "immoral" behaviour.. and that of other girls who were the Duchess's ladies.. so she told her story and John Lasells was delighted at having this ammunition to use against the Queen.

 

[Lucy63]

I have been a British monarchy fan for years, and these past few months I have been immersed in the Tudors. Have been reading everything I can find, watched all the movies, series and documentaries online...always looking for more. it is fascinating to think of where the monarchy would be now if Henry had never divorced...Mary would have been queen for her short reign, but then who? And would the monarchy have ever worked its way around to Victoria, and ultimately Elizabeth II? Seems unlikely, the way the throne was claimed in those days. So I guess we should be grateful that he did set aside Catherine of Aragon, in the long run. If he hadn’t, he would be just another king in history and her name would mean even less.

 

[Lucy63]

I think Heny would have grown bored with Jane, but probably stay married to her if she had lived. History would not have changed all that much, though Henry might be less infamous, as he would have only beheaded one wife, out of three marriages. He stll would have the fame of dumping the pope and changing the religion though.

 

[Curryong]

Hi Lucy. Congrats on your first post here. Yes, alternate history is quite fascinating. If Henry had never divorced Katherine of Aragon then I suppose England would have remained a Roman Catholic country.

I expect the throne would have devolved (after the childless reign of Mary I) to Mary Queen of Scots and her successors due to the descent from Margaret Tudor. Depending on Mary marrying Darnley then I guess James I would have eventually ruled England. Whether we would have a Victoria or Elizabeth II would depend on later events working out I suppose.

What if Henry had married Jane and Edward VI had survived and married with children? There would have been no Mary or Elizabeth and as Edward favoured a very strict Protestant religion Puritanism might well have flourished much earlier than it did. I'd rather have Elizabeth!

 

[Gawin]

If Henry hadn't divorced Catherine of Aragon their daughter Mary wouldn't have been physically & mentally abused in which case she may have lived longer. She also would have been married to a suitable Prince or nobleman when she was still young and healthy enough to have healthy children one of whom would have succeeded her on the throne.

 

[Ish]

Mary died at the age of 42 of what was likely either ovarian cysts or uterine cancer. She wasn’t so old when she married (or died) that children were out of the picture, were it not for her other health issues.

I wouldn’t expect her to have lived longer had her parents not divorced, nor necessarily her having any children given the cause of her death. But she would have reigned longer had her brother never been born simply because she would have come to the throne immediately after her father’s death.

Where the succession becomes interesting is that had Edward never been born, then Jane Grey would have never been put on the throne. It’s likely that Henry would have still excluded the descendants of Margaret Tudor from the throne (the Stuarts) in favour of those of his younger sister Mary (the Greys); if that had still happened, then Britain as we know it would not have come about.

 

[Gawin]

Chronic stress can affect a person's health including the body's receptivity to cancer. Mary lived with stress from the time she was eleven until she became Queen at 37. By that time she was prematurely aged and suffered from ill-health. If she had been raised as the heiress to the throne rather than the despised daughter who sided against Henry when tried to get rid of her mother, she would have been a different woman, emotionally and physically, when she became Queen. And by that time she would already have been a married woman with children.

 

[Lucy63]

If Henry hadn't divorced Catherine of Aragon their daughter Mary wouldn't have been physically & mentally abused in which case she may have lived longer. She also would have been married to a suitable Prince or nobleman when she was still young and healthy enough to have healthy children one of whom would have succeeded her on the throne.

Possibly...though I think she died of some sort of cancer. And that the issues she may have had with reproductive system could have come from her mother.

For that matter, if Henry had not created such a stressful world for himself, he may not have become so obese and ill, perhaps living another ten or fifteen years, at which time Mary may still have struuggled to get pregnant if still childless. I lean toward both Catherine and Mary suffering gynecology problems combined with the issues already in place conceiving and giving birth in the era.

 

[Gawin]

Mary died at the age of 42 of what was likely either ovarian cysts or uterine cancer. She wasn’t so old when she married (or died) that children were out of the picture, were it not for her other health issues.

I wouldn’t expect her to have lived longer had her parents not divorced, nor necessarily her having any children given the cause of her death. But she would have reigned longer had her brother never been born simply because she would have come to the throne immediately after her father’s death.

Where the succession becomes interesting is that had Edward never been born, then Jane Grey would have never been put on the throne. It’s likely that Henry would have still excluded the descendants of Margaret Tudor from the throne (the Stuarts) in favour of those of his younger sister Mary (the Greys); if that had still happened, then Britain as we know it would not have come about.

Jane Grey probably wouldn't have been Jane Grey because there wouldn't have been a Queen Jane to name her after. And if Henry hadn't divorced Catherine of Aragon, other events wouldn't necessarily have happened. We can't assume that Henry would still have died in 1547, that Mary Queen of Scots would have been born, etc. History is like a domino effect. Remove just one domino and the others after it may not have fallen.

 

[Lucy63]

Her marriage to Sir William Carey (1495 – 22 June 1528) resulted in the birth of two children (however there were rumours that King Henry VIII was the biological father):

• Catherine Carey (1524 – 15 January 1568). Rumoured to have been the child of King Henry VIII. Maid-of-Honour to Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard. She married a Puritan, Sir Francis Knollys, Knight of the Garter. She was later Chief Lady of the Bedchamber to her cousin, Elizabeth I. One of her daughters, Lettice Knollys, became the second wife of Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester, the favourite of Elizabeth I.
• Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon (4 March 1526 – 23 July 1596). Also rumoured to have been the child of Henry VIII. He was ennobled by Queen Elizabeth I just after her coronation and later made a Knight of the Garter. When he was dying, Elizabeth offered Henry the Boleyn family title of Earl of Ormond, which he had long sought, but he declined. He was married to Anne Morgan.

Mary's marriage to Sir William Stafford (d. 5 May 1556) resulted in the birth of two children:

• Anne (? - ?), probably named in honour of Mary's sister, Queen Anne Boleyn.
• Edward (1535 - 1545).

I have a (short) book from the library now about Mary’s daughter, that takes for granted she was Henry’s child. The author bases it on the high positions she later held, but to me, her family connections as well as those to Anne, thus to Elizabeth I would explain that. I think some of the movies and books out there further this assumption, which as far as I know cannot be proved, and seems unlikely.

 

[Lucy63]

Also - for anyone who is interested - Alison Weir's new biography about Mary Boleyn will be coming out in October

I found it to be very dry and hard-going, mostly because so little is known for sure about Mary. A great deal of the book is refuting or trying to confirm various issues and rumors, i.e was she actually the oldest, did get up to antics in France etc...but have not finished it, so perhaps it improves. I doubt she was much like the representations of her in either version of “The Other Boylen Sister” though.

 

[Lucy63]

OT but does Mary Queen of Scots have a thread, here or under media/movies etc?

 

[Gawin]

OT but does Mary Queen of Scots have a thread, here or under media/movies etc?

Here's a link to the Mary Queen of Scots thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f165/mary-queen-of-scots-1542-1587-a-18709.html

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If Princess Mary had been raised as the heiress, would she have been limited to marrying a Prince or nobleman who was a Roman Catholic?

 

[Lucy63]

If Princess Mary had been raised as the heiress, would she have been limited to marrying a Prince or nobleman who was a Roman Catholic?

I think probably a foreign prince or duke etc...to make an alliance, but I doubt Henry would have named her succesor until he knew for certain no boys would come...so she likely would have stayed unmarried for a while anyway.

 

[Lucy63]

I am reading David Starkey's book on the Six Wives now, after watching the program. He does seem to believe that the marriage between Catherine and Arthur was consummated, if not on the night of the wedding at some point during the few months following before Arthur became too ill. He may be in the minority and does not stand firm but leans that way.

It does seem likely to me as the whole point was to create an heir and Catherine seemingly did not speak up after his death, when the court waited to be sure she was not pregnant during the weeks following. But I know this is a sore point and at least slightly possible that she did not understand the acts of sex enough to object as she had been extremely sheltered.

One point I never understood was the failure of her parents in not teaching her English, when she was destined for England since age three or four.

 

[Curryong]

The point about the sheltered bride not knowing exactly what the sex act was is a valid one, IMO. The young couple knew it was their duty to provide heirs and they liked each other well enough. I'm sure Arthur knew his duty, even if he was inexperienced.

And Yes, no English instruction for their daughter was very remiss of Ferdinand and Isabella. Katherine was intelligent and a coupLe of years before her wedding she too could have requested lessons.

 

[Lucy63]

If Henry had not been such a nasty egotist in his middle age, he might have done well to stay married to Anne of Cleves. She may have provided one more child (changing everything of course) and poor silly Katherine Howard may have lived a normal life for her situation. Katherine Parr may still have died after childbirth but maybe even earlier if she had married Seymour sooner, and Elizabeth would have stayed out of that bit of nastiness at least. Funny to imagine all the scenarios that may have happened.

 

[Denville]

If Henry had not been such a nasty egotist in his middle age, he might have done well to stay married to Anne of Cleves. She may have provided one more child (changing everything of course) and poor silly Katherine Howard may have lived a normal life for her situation. Katherine Parr may still have died after childbirth but maybe even earlier if she had married Seymour sooner, and Elizabeth would have stayed out of that bit of nastiness at least. Funny to imagine all the scenarios that may have happened.

Since he clearly found ANne of C so unattractive that he could not consummate his marriage to her, I think the child would have been impossible. and he was clearly attracted to Kath Howard and wanted her, so he was going to mary her...

 

[An Ard Ri]

Did Henry recognize the children of both his sisters as being in the line of succession?

Margaret Tudor ,Queen Dowager of Scotland
James V of Scotland
Lady Margaret Douglas ,Countess of Lennox

Mary Tudor ,Queen Dowager of France,Duchess of Suffolk

Henry Brandon
Lady Frances Brandon ,Duchess of Suffolk
Lady Eleanor Brandon Clifford, Countess of Cumberland.
Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln

 

[Denville]

Im not sure. Margarets' family were foreigners and Mary's leaned towards girls....
I would imagine he thought of his son as providing a male heir in due course.

 

[An Ard Ri]

He was generous to his niece Lady Margaret who had been raised at the English court until he discovered her romance with Anne Boleyn's uncle, Lord Thomas Howard!

 

[Lucy63]

I still can’t over beheading that old woman from the Pole clan in her 70’s...just after marrying Katherine Howard I think...and it went badly, a few chops .

I know she was a schemer but good grief. Bess of Hardwick was much worse against Elizabeth yet Elizabeth kept arresting and releasing her, no matter what tricks she pulled trying to line up the throne for various relatives. Reading “Elizabeth’s Women’ really detailed how wily she was.

 

[LauraS3514]

I still can’t over beheading that old woman from the Pole clan in her 70’s...just after marrying Katherine Howard I think...and it went badly, a few chops .

I know she was a schemer but good grief. Bess of Hardwick was much worse against Elizabeth yet Elizabeth kept arresting and releasing her, no matter what tricks she pulled trying to line up the throne for various relatives. Reading “Elizabeth’s Women’ really detailed how wily she was.

The "old woman" was Margaret (Plantagenet) Pole, Countess of Salisbury, the daughter of Edward IV's brother George Duke of Clarence. She was imprisoned at the age of 12 after the Battle of Bosworth in 1485 (along with her 8 year old brother Edward, executed in 1499) and at 14 was married to Henry VII's cousin, with whom she had five children. Her fortunes waxed and waned under the Tudors and she became a firm friend of Catherine of Aragon and the future Mary I. After Henry VIII (her first cousin once-removed via Elizabeth of York) broke with Rome to marry Anne Boleyn, her son Reginald Pole, later the last Roman Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury and one-time possible suitor to Mary I, actively plotted against Henry in Europe although Margaret's participation was never proven. Margaret Pole was beheaded for her and her son's treason in 1541 at the age of 67. The executioner botched the job badly and Margaret was seen to move around on the block for several minutes while being chopped at with the sword. She was beatified as a martyr by the Roman Catholic Church in 1886.

 

[Lucy63]

I did not mean with katherine Howard...but before she went on progress with the king. Sorry if I was unclear. In the book I am reading he had her executed alomg with some others in the Tower to clear the decks, so to speak, before leaving London.

 

[LauraS3514]

I did not mean with katherine Howard...but before she went on progress with the king. Sorry if I was unclear. In the book I am reading he had her executed alomg with some others in the Tower to clear the decks, so to speak, before leaving London.

I went back and edited my post to remove the bit about Lady Rochford and Catherine Howard - but their time was coming

 

[Lucy63]

I do have sympathy for Katherine Howard...of course she should have known better, but geez...her cousin had only just been executed for the same charges not many years before. If that is not incentive enough to stay faithful, what is?

 

[Curryong]

Besides his physical difficulties, weight gain, weeping sore on his leg, this ageing man was not the most physically attractive person, so yes I also have sympathy.

Katherine was a vivacious teenager and I suspect not particularly intelligent (certainly not very well educated in contrast to most of Henry's wives.)

However she cannot have been stupid enough not to realise that Henry was both tyrannical and held absolute power in his Court. Katherine took the most awful risks and must have known that she was being watched and that with her personal history in her grandmother's household she would be finished if the King heard any of it.

 

[Gawin]

Did Henry recognize the children of both his sisters as being in the line of succession?

Margaret Tudor ,Queen Dowager of Scotland
James V of Scotland
Lady Margaret Douglas ,Countess of Lennox

Mary Tudor ,Queen Dowager of France,Duchess of Suffolk

Henry Brandon
Lady Frances Brandon ,Duchess of Suffolk
Lady Eleanor Brandon Clifford, Countess of Cumberland.
Henry Brandon, 1st Earl of Lincoln

No, he only recognized the succession rights of the children of his sister Mary, at least in writing.

Three Succession Acts were passed during his reign.

The first (1533) declared his daughter Mary a bastard and recognized Elizabeth as his heir.

The second (1536) declared Elizabeth a bastard and removed her from the succession. It also gave Henry the right to name his successor, in default of legitimate heirs, either by letters patent or in his will.

The third (1543) restored Mary and Elizabeth to the line of succession. But they were still considered illegitimate and could only succeed after Henry's son Edward & his descendants as well as any potential children born from Henry's marriage to Catherine Parr.

In his will (1546) Henry confirmed Edward, Mary, and Elizabeth as his successors, followed by Frances and Eleanor, the two daughters of his sister Mary.