The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #981  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:09 AM
Lucy63's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Albuquerque, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Since he clearly found ANne of C so unattractive that he could not consummate his marriage to her, I think the child would have been impossible. and he was clearly attracted to Kath Howard and wanted her, so he was going to mary her...
Well POW (later George IV) managed to impregnate Caroline despite an almost identical reaction to her when they met. And Anne of Cleeves seemed to have had more going for her from a personality and amiability aspect, as the coutiers found her pleasant and charming. Henry could have carried on with his affairs. Anyway, was just saying...and I know Henry viewed himself as a “romantic”while George simply needed the funds of a married prince to pay off debts.

Was thinking about the “evil smells”mentioned by both POW and Henry upon meeting the women. I know the era was not famous for personal hygiene but also it must have been very difficult to clean and deodorize those heavy, lush fabrics they wore, velvet, damask, etc without modern methods...I bet they (fabrics) held odors which were often more “masked” than removed. And not everyone bathed often. At some of the palaces, the ladies in waiting were housed in dormitory-style arrangements, which must have gotten rather ripe at times.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #982  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:00 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy63 View Post
Well POW (later George IV) managed to impregnate Caroline despite an almost identical reaction to her when they met. And Anne of Cleeves seemed to have had more going for her from a personality and amiability aspect, as the coutiers found her pleasant and charming. Henry could have carried on with his affairs. Anyway, was just saying...and I know Henry viewed himself as a “romantic”while George simply needed the funds of a married prince to pay off debts.

Was thinking about the “evil smells”mentioned by both POW and Henry upon meeting the women. I know the era was not famous for personal hygiene but also it must have been very difficult to clean and deodorize those heavy, lush fabrics they wore, velvet, damask, etc without modern methods...I bet they (fabrics) held odors which were often more “masked” than removed. And not everyone bathed often. At some of the palaces, the ladies in waiting were housed in dormitory-style arrangements, which must have gotten rather ripe at times.
Please...if a man says he finds the naked woman he's in bed with loathsome and isn't sexually aroused by her...take his word for it....

Whether or not others find her "pleasant and charming" is completely immaterial. They aren't attempting to have sex with her, HE is. HIS reaction - especially his physical reaction - is the one that counts.

And George IV's ability to consummate his marriage to Caroline of Brunswick also doesn't count: (1) Sexuality - including the ability/inability to become sexually aroused by a person one dislikes - is a very complicated matter, (2) based on their behavior I suspect George was more highly sexed than Henry, and (3) George was 33 years old at the time compared to Henry's 49.

We can't presume to think we know more about Henry's sexual likes and dislikes than he did.

__________________

Reply With Quote
  #983  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:28 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 12,354
I have always felt bad for Katherine Howard. She should have known better but really she was just an immature young adult and had no real adult guidance. yes, she was raised by her grandmother (step wasn't it) but no real adult supervision. And she was used by her Howard relatives who missed the power that they had with Anne. She really had no chance.

Lady Rochford....I am thinking it was a bit of Karma for the lies she told about her brother and his sister, Anne Boleyn.
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #984  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:32 PM
Lucy63's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Albuquerque, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I have always felt bad for Katherine Howard. She should have known better but really she was just an immature young adult and had no real adult guidance. yes, she was raised by her grandmother (step wasn't it) but no real adult supervision. And she was used by her Howard relatives who missed the power that they had with Anne. She really had no chance.

Lady Rochford....I am thinking it was a bit of Karma for the lies she told about her brother and his sister, Anne Boleyn.
Agree about Lady R...though she was really portrayed maliciously on film, especially Wolf Hall. She managed to hang on after Anne’s demise, all the way up to KH.

Feel sorry for Anne of Cleves too...
Reply With Quote
  #985  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:29 PM
HereditaryPrincess's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 8,680
I feel the same way about Katherine Howard and Anne of Cleves - I've always felt sorry for them the most out of Henry's wives (as well as Catherine of Aragon). As Zonk said, Katherine was young and not terribly mature; which made her become easily sucked into court life.
Anne of Cleves was forced into a marriage with a man who was old enough to be her father; and she was never given a chance once in this marriage.
__________________
"For beautiful eyes, look for the good in others; for beautiful lips, speak only words of kindness; and for poise, walk with the knowledge that you are never alone". Audrey Hepburn

*
"Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy". Anne Frank
Reply With Quote
  #986  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:34 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 21,305
Anne of Cleves outlived all of Henry's wives and the only one buried at Westminster Abbey,she seems to have enjoyed a good relationship with Queen Mary I.
__________________
14th of November,1522-Death of Anne de France,Duchess de Bourbon,Comtesse de Gien, Vicomtesse de Thouars et de Chatellerault,Dame de Beaujeu et Régente du Royaume de France.
Reply With Quote
  #987  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:37 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Texas, United States
Posts: 3,577
Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" 🤣 then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
  #988  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:54 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Please...if a man says he finds the naked woman he's in bed with loathsome and isn't sexually aroused by her...take his word for it....

Whether or not others find her "pleasant and charming" is completely immaterial. They aren't attempting to have sex with her, HE is. HIS reaction - especially his physical reaction - is the one that counts.

And George IV's ability to consummate his marriage to Caroline of Brunswick also doesn't count: (1) Sexuality - including the ability/inability to become sexually aroused by a person one dislikes - is a very complicated matter, (2) based on their behavior I suspect George was more highly sexed than Henry, and (3) George was 33 years old at the time compared to Henry's 49.

We can't presume to think we know more about Henry's sexual likes and dislikes than he did.

anyway, George only seems to have spent 1 or 2 nights with Caroline, he was just lucky that he got her pregnant...Although their child was a girl, and only one child at that, it seems that nothing would have induced George to try again with her.. So he hardly "forced himself to do his duty and father children...:
so I agree.. Henry simply could not do it with Anne - so he ish hardly to blame for not consummating the marriage. He was getting on and probably not that fertile.. and he was probably only intermittently capable of intercourse
Reply With Quote
  #989  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:58 PM
Lucy63's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Albuquerque, United States
Posts: 45
I think Anne of Cleves was still youngish when she died...early forties? And Katherine Parr died following childbirth. So possibly only the two executed Queens might have lived to “normal” ages, though of course either could have died giving birth later on. Being a woman was a dangerous business, even if not married to H8.
Reply With Quote
  #990  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:00 PM
Lucy63's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Albuquerque, United States
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Anne of Cleves outlived all of Henry's wives and the only one buried at Westminster Abbey,she seems to have enjoyed a good relationship with Queen Mary I.

Yes, in spite of their religious differences. I believe she was friendly with Elizabeth as well? All in all, she seemed a likable woman to me.
Reply With Quote
  #991  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:28 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
I feel the same way about Katherine Howard and Anne of Cleves - I've always felt sorry for them the most out of Henry's wives (as well as Catherine of Aragon). As Zonk said, Katherine was young and not terribly mature; which made her become easily sucked into court life.
Anne of Cleves was forced into a marriage with a man who was old enough to be her father; and she was never given a chance once in this marriage.
marrying a man old enough to be ones' father, whom one didn't know, was the fate of princesses. And I think she was lucky in many ways... Henry wasn't a wonderful husband, if they had stayed married and had a sex life, and she had not had children, he would have blamed her.. as it was, she got a comfortable life, rank and wealth, though maybe she was sad not to have children or to have a husband.
As for KH, she was young but her stupidity was amazing. Its hard not to ptiy her but she did bring it on herself...
Reply With Quote
  #992  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:49 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" 🤣 then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
Clearly he didnt just find her unattractive but simply could not do it with her. He was getting old and in bad health and I think that from the time of Anne Boleyn Henry had sexual problems. I think he wasn't always capable with Anne B because of heatlh or psycho sexual problems, which was one reason why he went from adoring her to wantng out of the marriage. He already had a family but by his age, I should say that he was not always capable of intercourse and coud only do it if conditions were just right. He did want another son but he problaby reasoned that he would have a better chance of having one, with a young girl like Cath Howard, whom he found really attractive..
Reply With Quote
  #993  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:48 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 7,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
He was getting old and in bad health and I think that from the time of Anne Boleyn Henry had sexual problems. I think he wasn't always capable with Anne B because of heatlh or psycho sexual problems, which was one reason why he went from adoring her to wantng out of the marriage.
But he had later a child with Jane Seymour.
Reply With Quote
  #994  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:30 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
But he had later a child with Jane Seymour.
Yes but as I said, I think he had potency problems with Anne Boleyn, which may have impacted on his having more children with her. It was sadi at George Boleyn's trial that Anne had told him that the King wasn't capable of intercourse....I think that he began to expeirence problems with Anne, but he was still abel to do it at times and fathered children on her and on Jane but he was getting older and the problems may have increased. As I recall, Chapuys said to him that he could not be sure of having children.. in the future and Henry angrily repeated 3 times "AM I not a man like other men?" which suggests to me that he was experiencing potency problems and was worried and angry about it. Faced at the age of 49 with a woman who didn't attract him, who repelled him and whom he had only married for politicial reasons, he probably was afraid of complete failure in the bedroom.. and wanted to marry Kath Howard who was young and sexy and who strongly attracted him...
Reply With Quote
  #995  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:43 AM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 21,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy63 View Post
Yes, in spite of their religious differences. I believe she was friendly with Elizabeth as well? All in all, she seemed a likable woman to me.
I'm not sure as she died before Elizabeth became queen ,Anne was of a similar age to Queen Mary and both were royal survivors.
__________________
14th of November,1522-Death of Anne de France,Duchess de Bourbon,Comtesse de Gien, Vicomtesse de Thouars et de Chatellerault,Dame de Beaujeu et Régente du Royaume de France.
Reply With Quote
  #996  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:56 PM
Lucy63's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Albuquerque, United States
Posts: 45
https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
Reply With Quote
  #997  
Old 11-10-2018, 02:05 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 21,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy63 View Post
https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
She also named Elizabeth in her will but oddly too Lady Frances Brandon,Dowager duchess of Suffolk .

Her friendship with Elizabeth 'cooled' after Wyatt's rebellion in 1554 as it did not go down too well with the Queen became suspicious .
__________________
14th of November,1522-Death of Anne de France,Duchess de Bourbon,Comtesse de Gien, Vicomtesse de Thouars et de Chatellerault,Dame de Beaujeu et Régente du Royaume de France.
Reply With Quote
  #998  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:25 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 672
Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" �� then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
I don't think you can say that because other men were able to do their job, Henry should have been able to as well. Human sexuality is very complex and there are a whole lot of physical, emotional, and psychological issues involved. And unlike a woman, a man can't just close his eyes and put up with it. He has to be sexually aroused. The men who supposedly "preferred other men" may have been bisexual. It's also true that some men are more highly sexed and easily aroused than others, which certainly plays a part.

I also don't think it was simply a matter of wanting more children, at least at that point in Henry's life. After all, he eventually married Catherine Parr who was childless at 31 despite two previous marriages. When Henry married Anne of Cleves he was a middle-aged man who wanted a wife to flatter him and make him feel young and desirable again. Unfortunately for Anne of Cleves, she saw Henry for what he was, unattractive and overweight, and Henry knew it. This wounded his ego and I suspect played a part in his inability to consummate their marriage & why he found her "loathsome" (maybe a little psychological projection going on?).

What he needed was a woman like Catherine Howard, younger, "sexier," and willing and able to flatter him. Just look at Henry's reaction when he learned what she really thought of him. Catherine didn't just commit the crime of adultery, she committed the much more dangerous crime of deflating Henry's massive ego, and she did it while the world watched. The poor woman didn't stand a chance.
Reply With Quote
  #999  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:52 PM
HereditaryPrincess's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Greater London, United Kingdom
Posts: 8,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
marrying a man old enough to be ones' father, whom one didn't know, was the fate of princesses. And I think she was lucky in many ways... Henry wasn't a wonderful husband, if they had stayed married and had a sex life, and she had not had children, he would have blamed her.. as it was, she got a comfortable life, rank and wealth, though maybe she was sad not to have children or to have a husband.
As for KH, she was young but her stupidity was amazing. Its hard not to ptiy her but she did bring it on herself...
Yes; being a history buff as well as interested in royalty, I've read many books on the historical British royals and have read up on a lot of the historical European royals so I'm aware of how arranged marriages used to work for royals and aristocrats alike.
__________________
"For beautiful eyes, look for the good in others; for beautiful lips, speak only words of kindness; and for poise, walk with the knowledge that you are never alone". Audrey Hepburn

*
"Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy". Anne Frank
Reply With Quote
  #1000  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:57 PM
XeniaCasaraghi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Texas, United States
Posts: 3,577
This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job. Henry and even his sisters felt once they did their job once then they had freedom to fulfill their own desires.
We don't know why Catherine Howard never got pregnant, if Henry was impotent, Catherine was barren....I don't think she would be practicing 16th century birth control. Let's assume she slept with 3 men in her life, Francis, Henry, Thomas. Do you find is strange that she never got pregnant hinting at being barren?
__________________

__________________
Princess Grace, April 19, 1956
Princess Margaret Rose, May 6, 1960
Crown Princess Mette-Marit, August 25, 2001
Jaqueline Bouvier Kennedy, September 12, 1953
Countess Stephanie of Belgium October 20, 2012
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anne boleyn, anne of cleves, biography, british history, catherine howard, catherine of aragon, catherine parr, catholicism, church of england, elizabeth i, henry viii, jane seymour, pope, queen consort, syphilis, tudor


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (1 members and 4 guests)
danishjaveed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Arthur, Prince of Wales, brother of Henry VIII (1486-1502) iowabelle British Royal History 34 08-08-2018 03:14 PM
Who is your favourite of Henry VIII's wives? lexi4 British Royal History 310 09-23-2017 12:44 PM
"Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII" by David Starkey (2003) ysbel Royal Library 12 11-19-2011 03:44 PM




Popular Tags
belgian book bracelets british royal family britishroyals camilla caracciolo clothes crown princess victoria current events current events thread daughters denmark documentary duchessofcambridge duchess of sussex duke of cambridge dutch royal family earl of snowdon fashion felipe vi forum genetics gordon hasnat khan helena iñaki urdangarín juan carlos kate middleton king felipe and queen letizia current events king philippe king willem-alexander letizia lineage lord snowdon meghan markle member patron porphyria prince charles prince harry prince harry of wales princenapoleon prince of belgium princess beatrice princess claire princess diana princess eugenie queen elisabeth queen elizabeth queen mary of teck quizz remarriage royal royal ancestry royal geneology royal wedding sarah duchess of york spain state visit surname sweden swedish royal family swedish royal registry tradition visit from sweden visit to spain wedding windsor castle windsor wedding



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018
Jelsoft Enterprises