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  #981  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:43 AM
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Yes, in spite of their religious differences. I believe she was friendly with Elizabeth as well? All in all, she seemed a likable woman to me.
I'm not sure as she died before Elizabeth became queen ,Anne was of a similar age to Queen Mary and both were royal survivors.
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  #982  
Old 11-10-2018, 11:56 AM
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https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:05 PM
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https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
She also named Elizabeth in her will but oddly too Lady Frances Brandon,Dowager duchess of Suffolk .

Her friendship with Elizabeth 'cooled' after Wyatt's rebellion in 1554 as it did not go down too well with the Queen became suspicious .
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  #984  
Old 11-10-2018, 05:25 PM
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Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" �� then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
I don't think you can say that because other men were able to do their job, Henry should have been able to as well. Human sexuality is very complex and there are a whole lot of physical, emotional, and psychological issues involved. And unlike a woman, a man can't just close his eyes and put up with it. He has to be sexually aroused. The men who supposedly "preferred other men" may have been bisexual. It's also true that some men are more highly sexed and easily aroused than others, which certainly plays a part.

I also don't think it was simply a matter of wanting more children, at least at that point in Henry's life. After all, he eventually married Catherine Parr who was childless at 31 despite two previous marriages. When Henry married Anne of Cleves he was a middle-aged man who wanted a wife to flatter him and make him feel young and desirable again. Unfortunately for Anne of Cleves, she saw Henry for what he was, unattractive and overweight, and Henry knew it. This wounded his ego and I suspect played a part in his inability to consummate their marriage & why he found her "loathsome" (maybe a little psychological projection going on?).

What he needed was a woman like Catherine Howard, younger, "sexier," and willing and able to flatter him. Just look at Henry's reaction when he learned what she really thought of him. Catherine didn't just commit the crime of adultery, she committed the much more dangerous crime of deflating Henry's massive ego, and she did it while the world watched. The poor woman didn't stand a chance.
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  #985  
Old 11-10-2018, 05:52 PM
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marrying a man old enough to be ones' father, whom one didn't know, was the fate of princesses. And I think she was lucky in many ways... Henry wasn't a wonderful husband, if they had stayed married and had a sex life, and she had not had children, he would have blamed her.. as it was, she got a comfortable life, rank and wealth, though maybe she was sad not to have children or to have a husband.
As for KH, she was young but her stupidity was amazing. Its hard not to ptiy her but she did bring it on herself...
Yes; being a history buff as well as interested in royalty, I've read many books on the historical British royals and have read up on a lot of the historical European royals so I'm aware of how arranged marriages used to work for royals and aristocrats alike.
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  #986  
Old 11-10-2018, 08:57 PM
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This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job. Henry and even his sisters felt once they did their job once then they had freedom to fulfill their own desires.
We don't know why Catherine Howard never got pregnant, if Henry was impotent, Catherine was barren....I don't think she would be practicing 16th century birth control. Let's assume she slept with 3 men in her life, Francis, Henry, Thomas. Do you find is strange that she never got pregnant hinting at being barren?
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  #987  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job. Henry and even his sisters felt once they did their job once then they had freedom to fulfill their own desires.
We don't know why Catherine Howard never got pregnant, if Henry was impotent, Catherine was barren....I don't think she would be practicing 16th century birth control. Let's assume she slept with 3 men in her life, Francis, Henry, Thomas. Do you find is strange that she never got pregnant hinting at being barren?
Well, she is quoted to have said she knew how not to get pregnant while still “meddling” with men, lol....

But who knows...we never will.
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  #988  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job.
Just because some royal/aristocratic men were able to deal with the complications doesn't mean they all did. Just because some birds can fly doesn't mean they all can. Just because Camilla makes Charles happy doesn't mean Diana could. Not everyone fits in the same-sized box.

Henry stated he found Anne of Cleves loathsome & wasn't sexually aroused by her. What makes you think you know more about his sex life than he did?
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  #989  
Old 11-11-2018, 03:05 AM
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Just because some royal/aristocratic men were able to deal with the complications doesn't mean they all did. Just because some birds can fly doesn't mean they all can. Just because Camilla makes Charles happy doesn't mean Diana could. Not everyone fits in the same-sized box.

Henry stated he found Anne of Cleves loathsome & wasn't sexually aroused by her. What makes you think you know more about his sex life than he did?
True, there were cases where marriages were not consummated for years and years, or maybe never consummated. Henry wasn't a young man and IMO had been having sexual or psycho sexual problems for some time by then. He already had children, and when he was able to repudiate Anne without causing a political crisis, he did so. He married twice after that and who knows what happened with his later wives.. maybe he wasn't able to make love to them either. I suspect he wasn't all that potent iwht Cath Howard either, and she turned ot an affair with Culpepper which was suicidially stupid of her.. With Cath Parr she was Probably valuable to him as a nurse and companion rather than his expecting her to produce children..
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  #990  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:22 PM
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Nice article about Agnes Duchess of Norfolk, Catherine Howard's neglectful step-grandmother:

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.co...ss-of-norfolk/
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  #991  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
Nice article about Agnes Duchess of Norfolk, Catherine Howard's neglectful step-grandmother:

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.co...ss-of-norfolk/
She had her hands full, that is for sure...thank you.
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  #992  
Old 11-13-2018, 05:46 PM
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She very nearly ended up on the block too!
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8th of October 1515 ; Birth of The Lady Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox
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  #993  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:17 PM
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Private marriage of Anne Boleyn and King Henry VIII
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-pri...-25144171.html

King Henry VIII dismissed Cardinal Wolsey after the Cardinal failed to secure Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon.
http://www.alamy.com/king-henry-viii...182144830.html

Seven surprising facts about Anne of Cleves
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspo...t-anne-of.html

Catherine of Aragon served as regent for her husband when Henry VIII was in France for six months in 1513. During that time, the English won the Battle of Flodden, Catherine took an active part in the planning.
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  #994  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:32 PM
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She very nearly ended up on the block too!
She knew about Catherine's "past" but said nothing. Was it ambition or did her stepson the Duke of Norfolk tell her to keep her mouth shut?
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  #995  
Old 11-13-2018, 07:34 PM
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She knew about Catherine's "past" but said nothing. Was it ambition or did her stepson the Duke of Norfolk tell her to keep her mouth shut?
Both, maybe? Or she was left out the loop until it was too late?
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  #996  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:11 AM
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Well, she is quoted to have said she knew how not to get pregnant while still “meddling” with men, lol....

But who knows...we never will.
I know what she said which is why I added it to my question.
In one of the Keith M dramas from the 70s they had Catherine sleeping with Culpeper so she could get pregnant.

Has anyone seen that interpretation of the wives? It actually portrays 90% of the people involved sympathetically.
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  #997  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I know what she said which is why I added it to my question.
In one of the Keith M dramas from the 70s they had Catherine sleeping with Culpeper so she could get pregnant.

Has anyone seen that interpretation of the wives? It actually portrays 90% of the people involved sympathetically.
I wish...can’t find that one anywhere, supposed to be one of the best. Was searching for it tonight, in fact. Watched a bad Mary of Scots instead, 2013 Swiss version, partly subtitled French. Did not care for at all, but also dislike the 1971 one lol. Movie folks want to make her story romantic lol. Sorry for off topic.

In one of my various books, it was mentioned that Owen Tudor was alternately listed as Owen Meredith in some court records...suggested by author that Meredith might have been used rather than Tudor for the dynasty to be...
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  #998  
Old 11-15-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lucy63 View Post
I wish...can’t find that one anywhere, supposed to be one of the best. Was searching for it tonight, in fact. Watched a bad Mary of Scots instead, 2013 Swiss version, partly subtitled French. Did not care for at all, but also dislike the 1971 one lol. Movie folks want to make her story romantic lol. Sorry for off topic.
I have the 1971 BBC production of The Six Wives of Henry VIII...on both VHS and DVD!! I watched it as a child and became hooked out of my mind on Tudor history forever afterward. For that entire summer I had a crush on Keith Michell, who for me will always be THE definitive Henry.


I ordered the VHS set directly from Britain and paid a fortune for it. I wish I had waited and purchased it on Amazon years later because it was a fraction of the cost.
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:16 PM
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Let's think about this...if it was well known that Catherine Howard had a sexual past...would that have discounted her potential marriage suitors (and I am not just talking about Henry). Was a virgin bride a big plus back than? And was it a true requirement for a royal bride?

And on the other side..if Henry had known about Catherine's past do you think he would have done a hard pass? I know one of the things he liked and spoke of proudly was that she was untouched.
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:33 PM
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I have the 1971 BBC production of The Six Wives of Henry VIII...on both VHS and DVD!! I watched it as a child and became hooked out of my mind on Tudor history forever afterward. For that entire summer I had a crush on Keith Michell, who for me will always be THE definitive Henry.


I ordered the VHS set directly from Britain and paid a fortune for it. I wish I had waited and purchased it on Amazon years later because it was a fraction of the cost.
I no longer own a dvd player or such. So many things still not available online surprises me, as I would pay to watch several unfindable shows like this. I thought by now one of the many streaming services would have picked these up.

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Let's think about this...if it was well known that Catherine Howard had a sexual past...would that have discounted her potential marriage suitors (and I am not just talking about Henry). Was a virgin bride a big plus back than? And was it a true requirement for a royal bride?

And on the other side..if Henry had known about Catherine's past do you think he would have done a hard pass? I know one of the things he liked and spoke of proudly was that she was untouched.
If her history was generally known...maybe not even the ambitious Howards would have dared put her at court. I think their whole plan was for her to entice Henry and they were counting on keeping her antics known to the few family members...forgetting about the other ladies in the dorm, and the fellows. Some other lady would have caught Henry's eye, as he was on the prowl, and like so much else in history, all would have been different. Not drastically, perhaps, as he may have been impotent by that time and had all the kids he would ever have.

I don’t know if female virginity in general was as crucial as faithfulness after marriage at least until male heirs were in place, for most men. Royals may have differed.
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