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  #981  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:28 PM
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I have always felt bad for Katherine Howard. She should have known better but really she was just an immature young adult and had no real adult guidance. yes, she was raised by her grandmother (step wasn't it) but no real adult supervision. And she was used by her Howard relatives who missed the power that they had with Anne. She really had no chance.

Lady Rochford....I am thinking it was a bit of Karma for the lies she told about her brother and his sister, Anne Boleyn.
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  #982  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:32 PM
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I have always felt bad for Katherine Howard. She should have known better but really she was just an immature young adult and had no real adult guidance. yes, she was raised by her grandmother (step wasn't it) but no real adult supervision. And she was used by her Howard relatives who missed the power that they had with Anne. She really had no chance.

Lady Rochford....I am thinking it was a bit of Karma for the lies she told about her brother and his sister, Anne Boleyn.
Agree about Lady R...though she was really portrayed maliciously on film, especially Wolf Hall. She managed to hang on after Anne’s demise, all the way up to KH.

Feel sorry for Anne of Cleves too...
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  #983  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:29 PM
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I feel the same way about Katherine Howard and Anne of Cleves - I've always felt sorry for them the most out of Henry's wives (as well as Catherine of Aragon). As Zonk said, Katherine was young and not terribly mature; which made her become easily sucked into court life.
Anne of Cleves was forced into a marriage with a man who was old enough to be her father; and she was never given a chance once in this marriage.
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  #984  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:34 PM
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Anne of Cleves outlived all of Henry's wives and the only one buried at Westminster Abbey,she seems to have enjoyed a good relationship with Queen Mary I.
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  #985  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:37 PM
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Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" 🤣 then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
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  #986  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:54 PM
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Please...if a man says he finds the naked woman he's in bed with loathsome and isn't sexually aroused by her...take his word for it....

Whether or not others find her "pleasant and charming" is completely immaterial. They aren't attempting to have sex with her, HE is. HIS reaction - especially his physical reaction - is the one that counts.

And George IV's ability to consummate his marriage to Caroline of Brunswick also doesn't count: (1) Sexuality - including the ability/inability to become sexually aroused by a person one dislikes - is a very complicated matter, (2) based on their behavior I suspect George was more highly sexed than Henry, and (3) George was 33 years old at the time compared to Henry's 49.

We can't presume to think we know more about Henry's sexual likes and dislikes than he did.

anyway, George only seems to have spent 1 or 2 nights with Caroline, he was just lucky that he got her pregnant...Although their child was a girl, and only one child at that, it seems that nothing would have induced George to try again with her.. So he hardly "forced himself to do his duty and father children...:
so I agree.. Henry simply could not do it with Anne - so he ish hardly to blame for not consummating the marriage. He was getting on and probably not that fertile.. and he was probably only intermittently capable of intercourse
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  #987  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:58 PM
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I think Anne of Cleves was still youngish when she died...early forties? And Katherine Parr died following childbirth. So possibly only the two executed Queens might have lived to “normal” ages, though of course either could have died giving birth later on. Being a woman was a dangerous business, even if not married to H8.

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Anne of Cleves outlived all of Henry's wives and the only one buried at Westminster Abbey,she seems to have enjoyed a good relationship with Queen Mary I.

Yes, in spite of their religious differences. I believe she was friendly with Elizabeth as well? All in all, she seemed a likable woman to me.
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  #988  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:28 AM
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I feel the same way about Katherine Howard and Anne of Cleves - I've always felt sorry for them the most out of Henry's wives (as well as Catherine of Aragon). As Zonk said, Katherine was young and not terribly mature; which made her become easily sucked into court life.
Anne of Cleves was forced into a marriage with a man who was old enough to be her father; and she was never given a chance once in this marriage.
marrying a man old enough to be ones' father, whom one didn't know, was the fate of princesses. And I think she was lucky in many ways... Henry wasn't a wonderful husband, if they had stayed married and had a sex life, and she had not had children, he would have blamed her.. as it was, she got a comfortable life, rank and wealth, though maybe she was sad not to have children or to have a husband.
As for KH, she was young but her stupidity was amazing. Its hard not to ptiy her but she did bring it on herself...

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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" 🤣 then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
Clearly he didnt just find her unattractive but simply could not do it with her. He was getting old and in bad health and I think that from the time of Anne Boleyn Henry had sexual problems. I think he wasn't always capable with Anne B because of heatlh or psycho sexual problems, which was one reason why he went from adoring her to wantng out of the marriage. He already had a family but by his age, I should say that he was not always capable of intercourse and coud only do it if conditions were just right. He did want another son but he problaby reasoned that he would have a better chance of having one, with a young girl like Cath Howard, whom he found really attractive..
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  #989  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:48 AM
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He was getting old and in bad health and I think that from the time of Anne Boleyn Henry had sexual problems. I think he wasn't always capable with Anne B because of heatlh or psycho sexual problems, which was one reason why he went from adoring her to wantng out of the marriage.
But he had later a child with Jane Seymour.
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  #990  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:30 AM
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But he had later a child with Jane Seymour.
Yes but as I said, I think he had potency problems with Anne Boleyn, which may have impacted on his having more children with her. It was sadi at George Boleyn's trial that Anne had told him that the King wasn't capable of intercourse....I think that he began to expeirence problems with Anne, but he was still abel to do it at times and fathered children on her and on Jane but he was getting older and the problems may have increased. As I recall, Chapuys said to him that he could not be sure of having children.. in the future and Henry angrily repeated 3 times "AM I not a man like other men?" which suggests to me that he was experiencing potency problems and was worried and angry about it. Faced at the age of 49 with a woman who didn't attract him, who repelled him and whom he had only married for politicial reasons, he probably was afraid of complete failure in the bedroom.. and wanted to marry Kath Howard who was young and sexy and who strongly attracted him...
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  #991  
Old 11-10-2018, 07:43 AM
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Yes, in spite of their religious differences. I believe she was friendly with Elizabeth as well? All in all, she seemed a likable woman to me.
I'm not sure as she died before Elizabeth became queen ,Anne was of a similar age to Queen Mary and both were royal survivors.
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  #992  
Old 11-10-2018, 12:56 PM
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https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
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  #993  
Old 11-10-2018, 02:05 PM
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https://elizregina.com/2013/05/23/th...nne-of-cleves/

This article seems to show that Anne of Cleves became closer to Elizabeth and did have religious issues with Mary later on.
She also named Elizabeth in her will but oddly too Lady Frances Brandon,Dowager duchess of Suffolk .

Her friendship with Elizabeth 'cooled' after Wyatt's rebellion in 1554 as it did not go down too well with the Queen became suspicious .
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  #994  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Henry's refusal to stick with Anne shows what kind of King he was. He wanted more children then he should have sucked it up and tried to get more children. Not only are there numerous examples throughout history of husbands who found their wives unattractive but don't forget the one's who preferred men yet still managed to do their job. But if Henry was passed his "child bearing years" �� then I'm glad he didn't stick with Anne because I fear he would have treated her worse for not producing a son.
I don't think you can say that because other men were able to do their job, Henry should have been able to as well. Human sexuality is very complex and there are a whole lot of physical, emotional, and psychological issues involved. And unlike a woman, a man can't just close his eyes and put up with it. He has to be sexually aroused. The men who supposedly "preferred other men" may have been bisexual. It's also true that some men are more highly sexed and easily aroused than others, which certainly plays a part.

I also don't think it was simply a matter of wanting more children, at least at that point in Henry's life. After all, he eventually married Catherine Parr who was childless at 31 despite two previous marriages. When Henry married Anne of Cleves he was a middle-aged man who wanted a wife to flatter him and make him feel young and desirable again. Unfortunately for Anne of Cleves, she saw Henry for what he was, unattractive and overweight, and Henry knew it. This wounded his ego and I suspect played a part in his inability to consummate their marriage & why he found her "loathsome" (maybe a little psychological projection going on?).

What he needed was a woman like Catherine Howard, younger, "sexier," and willing and able to flatter him. Just look at Henry's reaction when he learned what she really thought of him. Catherine didn't just commit the crime of adultery, she committed the much more dangerous crime of deflating Henry's massive ego, and she did it while the world watched. The poor woman didn't stand a chance.
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  #995  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:52 PM
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marrying a man old enough to be ones' father, whom one didn't know, was the fate of princesses. And I think she was lucky in many ways... Henry wasn't a wonderful husband, if they had stayed married and had a sex life, and she had not had children, he would have blamed her.. as it was, she got a comfortable life, rank and wealth, though maybe she was sad not to have children or to have a husband.
As for KH, she was young but her stupidity was amazing. Its hard not to ptiy her but she did bring it on herself...
Yes; being a history buff as well as interested in royalty, I've read many books on the historical British royals and have read up on a lot of the historical European royals so I'm aware of how arranged marriages used to work for royals and aristocrats alike.
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  #996  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:57 PM
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This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job. Henry and even his sisters felt once they did their job once then they had freedom to fulfill their own desires.
We don't know why Catherine Howard never got pregnant, if Henry was impotent, Catherine was barren....I don't think she would be practicing 16th century birth control. Let's assume she slept with 3 men in her life, Francis, Henry, Thomas. Do you find is strange that she never got pregnant hinting at being barren?
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  #997  
Old 11-10-2018, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job. Henry and even his sisters felt once they did their job once then they had freedom to fulfill their own desires.
We don't know why Catherine Howard never got pregnant, if Henry was impotent, Catherine was barren....I don't think she would be practicing 16th century birth control. Let's assume she slept with 3 men in her life, Francis, Henry, Thomas. Do you find is strange that she never got pregnant hinting at being barren?
Well, she is quoted to have said she knew how not to get pregnant while still “meddling” with men, lol....

But who knows...we never will.
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  #998  
Old 11-10-2018, 10:38 PM
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This is the last I will discuss this because we are going around in circles. Just because sexuality is complicated doesn't change that many royal/aristocratic men and women dealt with the complications so they could have children which was there job.
Just because some royal/aristocratic men were able to deal with the complications doesn't mean they all did. Just because some birds can fly doesn't mean they all can. Just because Camilla makes Charles happy doesn't mean Diana could. Not everyone fits in the same-sized box.

Henry stated he found Anne of Cleves loathsome & wasn't sexually aroused by her. What makes you think you know more about his sex life than he did?
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:05 AM
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Just because some royal/aristocratic men were able to deal with the complications doesn't mean they all did. Just because some birds can fly doesn't mean they all can. Just because Camilla makes Charles happy doesn't mean Diana could. Not everyone fits in the same-sized box.

Henry stated he found Anne of Cleves loathsome & wasn't sexually aroused by her. What makes you think you know more about his sex life than he did?
True, there were cases where marriages were not consummated for years and years, or maybe never consummated. Henry wasn't a young man and IMO had been having sexual or psycho sexual problems for some time by then. He already had children, and when he was able to repudiate Anne without causing a political crisis, he did so. He married twice after that and who knows what happened with his later wives.. maybe he wasn't able to make love to them either. I suspect he wasn't all that potent iwht Cath Howard either, and she turned ot an affair with Culpepper which was suicidially stupid of her.. With Cath Parr she was Probably valuable to him as a nurse and companion rather than his expecting her to produce children..
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:22 PM
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Nice article about Agnes Duchess of Norfolk, Catherine Howard's neglectful step-grandmother:

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.co...ss-of-norfolk/
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