Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I believe the marriage was consummated because that is what a royal marriage is arranged for-heirs.

I don't think anyone believes that royal marriages were arranged for other reasons; the question is whether the marriage was consummated before Arthur died. It was hoped that heirs would come from the union and there was a dynastic reason for arranging the marriage but did the two younguns' "get it on" so to speak is the question being debated.:eek:
 
I don't think anyone believes that royal marriages were arranged for other reasons; the question is whether the marriage was consummated before Arthur died. It was hoped that heirs would come from the union and there was a dynastic reason for arranging the marriage but did the two younguns' "get it on" so to speak is the question being debated.:eek:

I have to disagree. Royal marriages were contracted and arranged for political reasons, in addition to the getting of heirs.

In the case of Catherine and Arthur, it was considered a good match on both sides for several reasons.

1) The Catholic Kings hoped to gain for their youngest daughter the title of Queen, in a country with which she already had ties of blood and English ancestry through her mother. In fact, Catherine had a stronger legitimacy to the English throne than Arthur, whose house descended from an illegitimate line of John of Gaunt, while Catherine's own line was legitimate.

2) Henry VII desired the match because his sovereignty in England was not readily accepted by all the other kingdoms of Europe. Since the House of Trastamara was then the most prestigious ruling house on the continent, an alliance through marriage lent a great deal of credibility to Henry's right to rule England in the eyes of the rest of Europe. And with Catherine as Princess of Wales and future Queen of England, the House of Tudor's claim to the throne would be further strengthened by her indisputable royal English ancestry.

3) Both England and Spain sought to ally with one another against France, and the best way to do that was through a marriage that would create a blood tie between the two royal houses.

Catherine of Aragon and Arthur, Prince of Wales, were married by proxy when Catherine was fourteen. When Arthur turned fifteen, both sides determined that they were old enough to be formally married.

Do I believe their marriage was consummated? No. I don't believe it was for several reasons.

1) Arthur, Prince of Wales, was not a robust and healthy young man at the time of his marriage. There are several theories as to what caused his death, but whether you believe he died from tuberculosis, diabetes or the sweating sickness, it is clear that he was prone to illness.. enough to concern Henry VII a great deal.

2) Catherine of Aragon was always emphatic that her marriage to Arthur was never consummated. She stated this publicly on several occasions, and even directly challenged Henry VIII on this point. Her religion was as much a part of her as being Queen of England.. and I don't believe she would lie just to hold onto the crown - not even for the sake of her daughter. She was supremely confident that she was Henry's wife, and that could not have been based on a lie.

3) Henry VIII never answered her challenge, and you can be sure that if he did not find her a maid when they married, he would have been the first to say so.. but he didn't.. which I find more telling than any argument otherwise.. because he never called Catherine a liar, and he was the only one (aside from Catherine herself) in a position to know the truth of the matter.
 
:previous:I admire your point. However, it must be remembered that Katherine and Arthur were essentially children who had been cossetted and sheltered all of their lives. How in the world, at the age of 15, could Katherine possibly understand "consummation" of the marriage? How could Arthur? It must be remembered that Arthur called for wine the next day, saying "Marriage is thirsty work, and I have been deep in Spain." Did he know what he was babbling about? I doubt it. At that age, perhaps kissing and heavy ...ehem...playing around were "consummation" to the young couple.
 
:previous:I admire your point. However, it must be remembered that Katherine and Arthur were essentially children who had been cossetted and sheltered all of their lives. How in the world, at the age of 15, could Katherine possibly understand "consummation" of the marriage? How could Arthur? It must be remembered that Arthur called for wine the next day, saying "Marriage is thirsty work, and I have been deep in Spain." Did he know what he was babbling about? I doubt it. At that age, perhaps kissing and heavy ...ehem...playing around were "consummation" to the young couple.

The average life expectancy at birth during Tudor times, was 35 years. If a child lived into their mid-teens, they could reasonably be expected to live to their 40s or 50s.. although women usually died younger than men, since they bore the children and their risk of death was much higher.

It is a mistake to view life in medieval Europe through 21st century eyes, because though today we consider a 14 or 15 year old as being still somewhat a child.. in the 15th and 16th centuries that was not the case. Most girls were already mothers by the age of 15, having lived almost half their life expectancy by that time.

Catherine of Aragon would certainly have been aware of the meaning of marital consummation, just as she would have been taught about the court of her future husband and all the other aspects of education for a princess and future queen.

It was considered the duty of a mother to prepare her daughter(s) for marriage, including instruction on the facts of life. I can be virtually certain that Isabella of Castile would not shirk this duty with any of her daughters.

After all, the goal of a political marriage was to unite two houses by blood, with the children or 'fruits' of the marriage cementing the familial relationship and political alliance.

Certainly after all the time and money invested in the negotiations of the betrothal and marriage contract, which could take years in the case of royal children, the sooner the couple performed their duty to beget heirs the better. No one would overlook telling them how that was to be achieved.

It is also the reason that medieval parents carefully timed when a couple would commence sexual relations - usually at the age of 12 for girls and 14 for boys - it was considered safe for them to fully co-habitate, though they could have been legally married for several years by the time they reached those respective ages.

In the case of Arthur of Wales, I have seen no evidence to suggest that he was a virgin when he formally married Catherine at the age of 15. In all likelihood, he was not inexperienced by then. But in any case, he too would have known the meaning of consummation and what was expected of him in fulfilling his marital duty. If he was unable or unwilling to bed his wife, he was still a young man.. who would never admit such a failure to his friends, to his companions or to his courtiers. As a prince he would never admit to a failure of his duty either.

Of the two, Arthur was probably more sheltered than Catherine. If it is true that he was not in good health and/or prone to illness, then he was more likely to have been over-protected by his parents. Catherine, on the other hand, was the daughter of two strong and vigorous parents, who rode into battle together on more than one occasion.. so she probably had more worldly experience than her young husband.

And there is definitely a difference between living a life of privilege, as the son or daughter of a monarch, and being cossetted and sheltered. Most medieval children were never cossetted, in any case; especially the children of the nobility or children of royal rank, who were rarely in the presence of their parents beyond babyhood. They tended to form closer bonds to their nannies, tutors and governesses, than to Mom and Dad.
 
I agree....from what I understand with each pregnancy, Katherine gained weight until by the time Anne came about she looked very matronly (of course she was past her child bearing age).

I had also read that Anne would have been unable to have a successful second pregnancy after Elizabeth as a result of some disease that she carried. I think it was in the Allison Weir book. Did anyone hear that as well?
 
I agree....from what I understand with each pregnancy, Katherine gained weight until by the time Anne came about she looked very matronly (of course she was past her child bearing age).

I had also read that Anne would have been unable to have a successful second pregnancy after Elizabeth as a result of some disease that she carried. I think it was in the Allison Weir book. Did anyone hear that as well?

Later portraits of Katherine don't show an emaciated woman, in my opinion, and she does look matronly in those portraits.. but to be honest, Bulemia would account for her weight, where Anorexia would not.. and I would venture to guess that the posted article should have said Bulemia rather than Anorexia.

Bulemia can also cause infertility, constant weight fluctuations and enlarged glands in the neck and under the jaw line. Bulimics are much more likely to have an affective disorder, such as depression or general anxiety disorder. The condition still involves binging and purging, but there are quite a few differences between the two disorders. I will not go into the details of their differences, though, since both disorders are well explained on Wikipedia.

The onset of bulimia nervosa is often during adolescence, between 13 and 20 years of age, and many cases have previously suffered obesity. In most cases, the sufferer tends to be of average or slightly above/ below average weight. My best friend in high school had this condition, and she was by no means emaciated by the purging.. she weighed much more than I did.

I haven't heard that about Anne Boleyn. If you find that reference, please let me know.. I'd be very interested to read it.

I do think that whatever problems his wives may have had, that Henry could have had problems of his own.. especially once he reached "middle" age and his weight began to bloom.
 
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Regarding Anne B, it's entirely possible that she was rhesus negative (as I am) and would've born only one healthy child. The rest would've died before birth.
 
Wow, never thought the RH factor could explain the miscarriages and stillbirths. Makes sense to me.
 
Wow, never thought the RH factor could explain the miscarriages and stillbirths. Makes sense to me.

I believe that I read the Anne did indeed have the RH factor, and she would not have been able to have a sucessful 2nd pregnancy to term. So she was pretty much done. I can't remember which book I read that. I will continue to look. So many Anne and Henry VII books:ROFLMAO:
 
I believe that I read the Anne did indeed have the RH factor, and she would not have been able to have a sucessful 2nd pregnancy to term. So she was pretty much done. I can't remember which book I read that. I will continue to look. So many Anne and Henry VII books:ROFLMAO:

I have the Rh factor also. It could explain the stillbirths of either queen. A second pregnancy could have been successful had the baby inherited the Rh negative, but if Henry inherited the RH positive from both parents, then all children would have the Rh positive, which would result in problems after the first pregnancy caused the queen's body to create antibodies to the Rh positive factor. I never heard of that theory before, but it is a possible explanation.
 
I believe that I read the Anne did indeed have the RH factor, and she would not have been able to have a sucessful 2nd pregnancy to term. So she was pretty much done. I can't remember which book I read that. I will continue to look. So many Anne and Henry VII books:ROFLMAO:

Please do try to find that Zonk! I want to know what the source is for that information.

If Anne was Rh Negative, that could not be known without a blood sample or DNA evidence to prove it.

I'm not disputing that she may have been Rh Negative, but I would simply love to know how that determination was made. :flowers:
 
Anne Boleyn: The Reproductive Problems of Henry VIII's Second Wife - Rh Negative or Just Stressed? - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com This is a link to an article that explains the possible causes of Anne's miscarriages after the birth of Elizabeth. All of them seem to be very possible, especially if put together.
Also I would like to add a bit about Queen Catherine and her diet... I have read in various books that Catherine had a very difficult time adjusting to the food in England..It was very different from what she was accustomed to eating in Spain. She especially never liked English ale, as she was more used to drinking fruit juices, wine and even clean water in Spain, esp after her parents captured the Alhambra and took up residence there. She was also more used to eating fresh fruits and vegetables which just were not as available in England, which relied heavily on a diet of cooked heavily spiced meats and breads. IMO maybe this diet just never agreed with her and led to frequent digestive upsets. She is also known to have fasted frequently as she was extremely pious in her beliefs, and I doubt that would have been a good thing for someone who suffered with digestive problems to begin with.
 
Interesting article, Lady Nemesis, thank you for posting the link. Too bad we cannot go back in time to verify what caused the miscarriages. Today women continue to have miscarriages and it could have been any number of factors, such as Rh negative blood and stress, which caused Anne to miscarry after Elizabeth's successful birth. Pity -- her reproductive failures sealed her doom.
 
I don't believe in destiny,but considering that bad luck plays sometimes key roles,then who knows why the Dinasty of Tudors dissapeared so unexpectedly
 
Didn't she die of stomach cancer? Who knows how long the tumor was there? That could have been the source of the digestive problems too.
 
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One thing that article leaves out re: the syphillis option is the presence of that intractible sore on his 'upper thigh' aka groin which is called a 'shanker' by modern physicians and is diagnostic for syphillis. It also accounts for the fact that any of the wives who became pregnant sucessfully delivered the first child (when the infection was early), but as the syphillis progressed, miscarriages/stillbirths would be the expected course.
 
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One thing that article leaves out re: the syphillis option is the presence of that intractible sore on his 'upper thigh' aka groin which is called a 'shanker' by modern physicians and is diagnostic for syphillis. It also accounts for the fact that any of the wives who became pregnant sucessfully delivered the first child (when the infection was early), but as the syphillis progressed, miscarriages/stillbirths would be the expected course.

True, but I have wondered, given his obesity in later years, if he might have been diabetic. An unhealing ulceration like that can happen in diabetes, and it could have made him impotent with his last couple of wives, also.
 
One thing that article leaves out re: the syphillis option is the presence of that intractible sore on his 'upper thigh' aka groin which is called a 'shanker' by modern physicians and is diagnostic for syphillis. It also accounts for the fact that any of the wives who became pregnant sucessfully delivered the first child (when the infection was early), but as the syphillis progressed, miscarriages/stillbirths would be the expected course.
See, I always thought about that myself, however, it's been bandied about enough though never proven. Can they (scientists) run tests on Great Harry now to determine if he had it? Would be interesting to know.
 
True, but I have wondered, given his obesity in later years, if he might have been diabetic. An unhealing ulceration like that can happen in diabetes, and it could have made him impotent with his last couple of wives, also.
Could be both, not either or. They are not mutually exclusive.
 
See, I always thought about that myself, however, it's been bandied about enough though never proven. Can they (scientists) run tests on Great Harry now to determine if he had it? Would be interesting to know.
I would imagine that if the BRF were to allow them to exhume H8, they could definitavely diagnose it. I cant imagine why the BRF would...in order to let them prove he had syphillis? No upside there.
 
There is a special tonight on a cable station (Can't remember it and I missed it) regarding Henry's health. They basically think that Henry had some health issues and these issues affected him so much, he basically had a personality change.

Did anyone catch it?
 
In 1985 I was with a group who was touring England for a month. We were studying about the Tudor Period. We went to Westminster Abbey and we were listening to a tour guide tell us about the history of the Abbey. I'm sitting in one of the pews and felt this terrible pain in my ankle. It felt like someone had their hand around my ankle and were squeezing it. It started to hurt. I happened to look down after the tour guide was talking about monarchs that were buried in the abbey. I saw the words Henry VIII written where my feet were. I moved my feet and the pain went away. Someone told me later that he was buried underneath the floor where my feet had been. This person was not in our group and the tour guide just rolled his eyes, so I don't know if this was true (if he actually was buried near where people sit). When I got up to leave I accidently stepped where my feet had been and felt a sharp pain in my ankle. Everyone just rolled their eyes at me. No one else of course had any experience like this. Sometimes it seems like it only me that has these strange experiences when visiting old churches or old castles.

I would say leave well enough alone.
 
I am certain that Henry VIII is not buried at Westminster Abbey, I think he's buried at St. George"s Chapel at Windsor Castle next to his 3rd wife Jane Seymour
 
I am certain that Henry VIII is not buried at Westminster Abbey, I think he's buried at St. George"s Chapel at Windsor Castle next to his 3rd wife Jane Seymour


You are right. Henry VIII is buried at St Georges with Jane.
 
He is buried at St. George's. The remains of Henry VIII, Jane Seymour, King Charles I and Queen Anne's infant child are all under a marble slab. The scarcophagus(sp?) originally made for Henry VIII holds the remains of Admiral Lord Nelson in St. Paul's.
 
He is buried at St. George's. The remains of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour

This is way I think if King Henry VIII loved anyone of his wives, because he is buried with Queen Jane he loved her much more than any other wife. I think this action speaks volumes. Queen Jane gave him is son.
 
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