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  #1681  
Old 10-25-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kronprinz View Post
You can't really compare Queen Elizabeth or Queen Mary wearing their timeless conservative clothes with the Duchess of Windsor, who had to be dressed to the nines always in the latest fashion if she wanted to be noticed.
Why did she have to be dressed to the nines??
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  #1682  
Old 10-25-2017, 05:09 PM
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I certainly don't hate these two or need to personally like them. I'm interested in seeing how they fit into their time and place. And one thing I find interesting is how little they seemed to pay attention to the lay of the land, so to speak.

Intellect has nothing to do with it, really. They just didn't engage in basic "if I do this, x will likely happen" thinking that most humans through time have done, which lead to them being continually surprised by the consequences of their actions.

Like you, I don't buy into the popular image of Wallace as some evil, scheming thing. I think it's more that she didn't really bother to look very far beyond what was right in front of her face. I don't get the sense that she intended to make anyone's life difficult. At the same time, I don't get the sense that she cared one way or the other about what ripple effects she might set into motion or how others would be impacted. She just seems to me to have been a simple sort of...careless. Which is it's own kind of selfishness.
Nicely said, loonytick. I agree overall with just some slight caveats.

Regarding the consequences of actions, I do think that few people live with that kind of prescience. Just the way I see it.

P.S. loonytick, what does your name signify?
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  #1683  
Old 10-25-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Nicely said, loonytick. I agree overall with just some slight caveats.

Regarding the consequences of actions, I do think that few people live with that kind of prescience. Just the way I see it.

P.S. loonytick, what does your name signify?
My name doesn't really signify anything other than desperation. Years ago when I was signing up for some other website I couldn't find a name with meaning for me that wasn't already taken. I decided to just try something silly but easy to remember, that was the first thing that came to my head, and so I went with it. I think it's kind of dumb, but it's always available, so it's become my go-to handle.

As for the Duke and Duchess, nobody can ever see the future clearly of course. But they didn't seem to take notice (or care to take notice) of things that I think most people in their position would have identified as being really, really obvious. And honestly, how many people in the world are as consistently, as thoroughly self-centered as those two were, at least for the first decade or so of their marriage? They weren't the only selfish people the world has seen, they aren't the only example of selfish royals, but they were certainly far more myopic than anyone I've ever known.
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  #1684  
Old 10-25-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
My name doesn't really signify anything other than desperation. Years ago when I was signing up for some other website I couldn't find a name with meaning for me that wasn't already taken. I decided to just try something silly but easy to remember, that was the first thing that came to my head, and so I went with it. I think it's kind of dumb, but it's always available, so it's become my go-to handle.
Funny. So I would guess.
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  #1685  
Old 10-25-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kronprinz View Post
You can't really compare Queen Elizabeth or Queen Mary wearing their timeless conservative clothes with the Duchess of Windsor, who had to be dressed to the nines always in the latest fashion if she wanted to be noticed.
No, but you can compare the needs of Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret in that they matured through the war years and nice clothes and nice lingerie are every bit as important for two royal Debs as for Wallis in her own Salon.

Since wardrobes are kept for years I think more than a few evening and gala gowns got the chop during the war years to recycle into necessities for the Princesses.

For anyone wanting to read up on David and Wallis, it's not a bad idea to go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading. The first entries are in 2003 and a lot of information was available after the death of the QM. Not least from the FBI.
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  #1686  
Old 11-04-2017, 04:12 AM
eya eya is offline
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National Portrait Gallery includes Duke of Windsor in list of 20th century's 'inspirational pioneers'

Duke of Windsor includes in list of 20th century's inspirational pioneers
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  #1687  
Old 11-04-2017, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eya View Post
What?? What is he inspirational for???

Quote:
Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
My As for the Duke and Duchess, nobody can ever see the future clearly of course. But they didn't seem to take notice (or care to take notice) of things that I think most people in their position would have identified as being really, really obvious. And honestly, how many people in the world are as consistently, as thoroughly self-centered as those two were, at least for the first decade or so of their marriage? They weren't the only selfish people the world has seen, they aren't the only example of selfish royals, but they were certainly far more myopic than anyone I've ever known.
I think that they were - certainly not very well up on how the RF was likely to regard them, when they had behaved as they did. For a "serious" RF like the British one, the worst thing is dereliction of duty. Q Mary said to Ed that "so many men had given up their lives" in service of their country in the war, and he was being asked to make a lesser sacrfiice.
Or had they even chosen to give up the throne but to lead a quiet life wherever they went, I think they might have been forgiven. But they led a lavish lifestyle and seemed to feel that they should be allowed to return to britian in a little while and "lead a royal life" there as and when it suited them. but yes, they just did not seem to see this. They went on leading the life of Luxury. They visited Hitler when it was getting a bit dubious.. they didn't want to do anyting during the war that would inconvenience them too much... and even after the War, Edward still said that "he didn't think Hitler had been such a bad chap"...
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  #1688  
Old 11-04-2017, 09:43 AM
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The NPG display has a very early portrait of David in First World War uniform. He wasn't allowed on the Front Line, so not a war hero. Heaven knows what he is the inspiration for. A Prince that turned into a frog? An adored King who let his country down? The article doesn't really explain it.
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  #1689  
Old 11-15-2017, 12:57 PM
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https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...6Vbf35WTrBC.01

Royal archivist cleared to see Duke of Windsor’s will
Read more at https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ZThB8CyRgJm.99
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  #1690  
Old 11-15-2017, 04:52 PM
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Regarding the issues that Wallis would have been dealing with in her time and place: I am struck that some see taking those constraints into account is seen as 'revisionist'.

Recently I saw a screening of the 1940's film 'The Parradine Case'. It's an Alfred Hitchcock/David O Seznick film. It was my first viewing and I confess to having been muddled by the plot line, until we viewed it a second time with the commentary supplied by two film historians (I think they were), and so much fell into place (like the fact that about 16 minutes of crucial scenes had been deleted between the first showing and subsequent showings, major mistake).

We watched all the special features, which were many interviews, and the backstory for the film was fascinating, especially the film commentary. I am mentioning this because the film historians laid out the patriarchy (of the time) that Hitchcock/Selznick were displaying in the film. (Wallis did not have any power of herself, only in relation to the man she was connected to).

Most interesting were the comments about the 'heroine' (stretching the term) and her predicament: how sex/gender power roles were being played out. There is a scene where the powerful judge gropes the wife of the barrister, for example. There is the revelation that it was understood that Ethel Barrymore's character had been driven mad in the confines of her marriage to the judge. There is the mention of the sexual arousal the judge felt when sentencing a woman to death. (A lot of these really explosive declinations were part of the 16 minutes of scene deletions, interesting in itself).

Back on issue: I know there are many who feel the politics of the Duke and Duchess couple is the major point to focus on. However, none of that makes sense unless the whole of the British aristocracy, and society at large in general at the time, is analyzed. The Duke and Duchess were not outliers in that regard at all. What Hitler was peddling in Germany had resonance in factions in Britain, and the US (for sure). How much of all that Wallis believed herself, and how much she was caught up in it because of her connection to David (who would have for sure had those views as part of the BRF) is unknown to me, but I would not be inclined to indict Wallis out-of-hand, though she was a 'southern belle' and I assume she had the biases of her upbringing inbred in her regarding race and class. (I am even less interested in whether or not she was personally likable, though evidence was she was, she carried their social whirl, not him).

I view Wallis as more sinned against than sinning. I do not view that as 'revisionist', just stepping back and looking at the context of Wallis' female world back then, which was pretty constrained. We easily state that Wallis could have declined marriage to David (from the perspective of our relatively free western perspective now almost 80-90 years on), but in fact I don't think Wallis had a choice. Not really, if she wanted to live a half-way decent life.

Interesting story however you slice it.
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  #1691  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:27 PM
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The more I learn about the couple, the more I feel little at all about Wallis and exasperated with David.

I don't think Wallis was a good person, but I certainly don't think she was the scheming monster people often paint her to be. I don't hold her responsible for the decision to take political steps (although she certainly had political opinions I find unsavory) or responsible for, well, much of what went...if not wrong, then uncomfortable. She was a woman who loved luxury, she could bloviate when she was in the mood, but mostly I think she was was along for the ride with a man she found dashing.

David, on the other hand, should have known when he was playing with fire. Just being political at all wasn't a good idea. Had he ostentatiously cozied up to FDR instead, it still would have been a stupid move on his part.

But I think you're right that it's important to understand that his meeting with Hitler came at a time before the majority of folks outside of Germany were able to see the Nazi party for the horror that it was. Partly it was a matter of not being willing to look with fully open eyes at what was happening, partly it was a matter of the reports making it into international news not giving a clear picture of how bad things were already were for German Jews, part of it was not caring too much about what happened to Jews (remember, people of the time were well used to not paying any mind to pogroms...Jim Crow...all sorts of violent inequities against minority groups). The big fear of the moment was Communism, and all too many folks--especially in the aristocracy, who had seen their Russian royal friends deposed, killed, or run out of the country by Bolsheviks--were so focused on the possibility of it spreading across Europe that their evaluation of Hitler pretty much only consisted of asking "can he stop the advance of the Reds?" and reaching the conclusion "people are working in Germany again, he's stopped folks there from talking about redistribution of wealth, so...looks like he can!"

Of course, the tricky thing about evaluating historic figures from the relatively comfortable and knowledgeable position of the present is that, on the one hand, it's only fair to evaluate them for making decisions based on what they knew at the time. David couldn't know that Hitler would invade neighboring nations, much less that he would murder millions of people in concentration camps. He and Wallis can't be held responsible for understanding that side of him yet. But it's also important to recognize what warning signs were there and what people like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor chose to be blind to, chose to ignore, chose to not consider serious or problematic. That's how we learn to (hopefully) do a better job than they did of spotting the "monsters" and heading them off at the pass rather than helping them get a terrible degree of power.
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  #1692  
Old 11-17-2017, 06:10 PM
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even well after the War, when the Final Solution was well known, David "didn't think Hitler was all that bad".....
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  #1693  
Old 11-17-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
The more I learn about the couple, the more I feel little at all about Wallis and exasperated with David.

I don't think Wallis was a good person, but I certainly don't think she was the scheming monster people often paint her to be. I don't hold her responsible for the decision to take political steps (although she certainly had political opinions I find unsavory) or responsible for, well, much of what went...if not wrong, then uncomfortable. She was a woman who loved luxury, she could bloviate when she was in the mood, but mostly I think she was was along for the ride with a man she found dashing.

David, on the other hand, should have known when he was playing with fire. Just being political at all wasn't a good idea. Had he ostentatiously cozied up to FDR instead, it still would have been a stupid move on his part.

But I think you're right that it's important to understand that his meeting with Hitler came at a time before the majority of folks outside of Germany were able to see the Nazi party for the horror that it was. Partly it was a matter of not being willing to look with fully open eyes at what was happening, partly it was a matter of the reports making it into international news not giving a clear picture of how bad things were already were for German Jews, part of it was not caring too much about what happened to Jews (remember, people of the time were well used to not paying any mind to pogroms...Jim Crow...all sorts of violent inequities against minority groups). The big fear of the moment was Communism, and all too many folks--especially in the aristocracy, who had seen their Russian royal friends deposed, killed, or run out of the country by Bolsheviks--were so focused on the possibility of it spreading across Europe that their evaluation of Hitler pretty much only consisted of asking "can he stop the advance of the Reds?" and reaching the conclusion "people are working in Germany again, he's stopped folks there from talking about redistribution of wealth, so...looks like he can!"

Of course, the tricky thing about evaluating historic figures from the relatively comfortable and knowledgeable position of the present is that, on the one hand, it's only fair to evaluate them for making decisions based on what they knew at the time. David couldn't know that Hitler would invade neighboring nations, much less that he would murder millions of people in concentration camps. He and Wallis can't be held responsible for understanding that side of him yet. But it's also important to recognize what warning signs were there and what people like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor chose to be blind to, chose to ignore, chose to not consider serious or problematic. That's how we learn to (hopefully) do a better job than they did of spotting the "monsters" and heading them off at the pass rather than helping them get a terrible degree of power.
Pefectly analyzed I think.... very interesting and it sounds so true !
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