Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)


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Well, Nancy Astor was married and in the higher rungs of Society, both in Virginia and in Britain, and she achieved many things on her own without having affairs and causing upheaval in her adopted country. And she was far from being a wallflower.

Sorry, but I just do not subscribe to the Michael Bloch view of the shallow and selfish Wallis. I've read far too much about her I suppose.
 
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What did Wallis do that was so spectacular? I've never heard of her being intelligent, or even witty. her one "joke" was that they didn't have children because "David isn't heir conditioned"...
She was a society hostess who got lucky, David was not looking for a "fascinating witty woman" or an intelligent one or one who was out to do something special or change the world.
He was looking for someone who would dominate him, and "look after him" and listen to him complaining.. not a woman who was interesting to talk to. He had found other women who were his mistresses for a time, but Wallis probably came along when he was increasingly panicking at the idea of becoming King, when he was puhsing 40 and was in a mid life crisis situation.. and she had the sort of personality IMO that reminded him of his mother. Q Mary was not a cuddly warm sort of mother, and IMO David wanted someone who mothered him but was also strict with him. Wallis consciously or unconsciously played into that, was cool with him at times, "told him off for his own good".. and was in a way the sort of mother figure he was used to...
She "lucked out" by attracting him,but she didn't think that it would be a permanent affair.. SHe problaby felt that when he became King he would settle down and marry a suitable well bred English wife.. But she enjoyed the affair as long as it lasted..
I think she was probably pretty scared when she realised that David was so obsessed that he wanted to marry her, but then was determined to get the best deal she could out of the situation. If that was morganatic wife, she would have been Ok with that.
If it was NOT morganatic wife, if she found that Daivd had to give up the throne to marry her, she was going to make the best of it.. and live splendidly in café society, with the romance of being "the woman that he gave up the throne for.."
 
She had a perfectly decent husband, in Ernest Simpson and I'm sure she was not poor. Had she not neglected him to the point where he went to another woman and fell in love, she would have been comfortable enough for life... He clearly was willing to turn a blind eye to affairs provided she didn't go too far....and I don't think she was dependent on Edward particularly. Of course she was financially, since she grew accustomed to a very lavish lifestyle, but she was the dominant one in the marriage. He adored her, and she was IMO frequently irritated by him and his obsessive devotion.. hence her affair of sorts with Jimmy Donahue...


As I said, poverty is relative. The fear of it, according to our past experiences of it, can be overwhelming. Perhaps "comfortable enough" ceased to be enough when she saw what else was on offer. She seems to have always felt -possibly from the days of Uncle Sol's largesse?- that her position in society was dependent on men. It was fortunate for her that the man who could provide her with untold wealth was a weak enough character to allow her dominant nature full rein.
 
well fine but its hard not to feel that she didn't love David but latched onto him, when she realised that he was ready to marry her and if he couldnt give her a throne, could and would share immense wealth with her. Some might call that gold digging..
It is some time since I read a bio of them, but I do recall in someone's diaries or bio, a comment that their relationship came across as if she were "an older woman tolerating the adoration of a younger man" but not reciprocating it..
 
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What did Wallis do that was so spectacular? I've never heard of her being intelligent, or even witty. her one "joke" was that they didn't have children because "David isn't heir conditioned"...

Witty doesn't necessarily mean that she was a laugh riot comedian. I never met Wallis but almost everyone who did remarked on how quick witted she was and that she came across as extremely intelligent and up to date on current events - something which wasn't always true of her husband.

She was a society hostess who got lucky, David was not looking for a "fascinating witty woman" or an intelligent one or one who was out to do something special or change the world. He was looking for someone who would dominate him, and "look after him" and listen to him complaining.. not a woman who was interesting to talk to.

I disagree. David didn't show any taste for the vast majority of English girls. He found them boring and dull. They were too overawed by his position and I think the rumour and gossip that surrounded every meeting with a potential English wife put him off. He preferred married women because they (usually) meant he would be free from commitment but if you look at the women he chose before Wallis, they all had one thing in common. They were not the standard timid women most English men were used to. I agree that he wanted to be mothered and I think he responded well to a bossy woman, though I don't know that I buy into the idea that he sought women who could dominate him. Either socially or sexually. There's no way to really know that outside of gossip.

She "lucked out" by attracting him,but she didn't think that it would be a permanent affair.. SHe problaby felt that when he became King he would settle down and marry a suitable well bred English wife.. But she enjoyed the affair as long as it lasted..

Who wouldn't enjoy being the King's mistress? But again, I think it's unfair to say she "lucked out" as if she was the least likely person ever to attract someone in David's position. The Duke of Kent liked Wallis, Lord Mountbatten enjoyed spending time with her. Why? Because she was so different. She had opinions of her own. She was confident. Sir Harold Acton took people to task who made unkind comments about Wallis, saying that she was the "brightest spark in a dull English drawing room". This isn't coincidence or luck. It's testament to someone with a great personality which she used to her advantage.

I think she was probably pretty scared when she realised that David was so obsessed that he wanted to marry her, but then was determined to get the best deal she could out of the situation.

I agree that Wallis was scared at the point of the abdication and it's not hard to understand why. On the one hand, she was being followed by British secret intelligence who were nothing more than vicious bullies determined to ruin her. Photographers were hounding her, she was getting death threats and filthy letters, she was even being ostracised from close friends. If David changed his mind and cut her loose, who would she have left? And on the other hand, she had David very keen not to change his mind even going so far as to threaten (apparently very seriously) to kill himself. What was she to do? I don't doubt that Wallis loved him but I do think she didn't quite realise how far he was prepared to go and that's something she couldn't possibly have predicted given the short space of time she'd known David. Realistically, many others could have warned her about how impulsive and sensitive he could be but they chose not to.

well fine but its hard not to feel that she didn't love David but latched onto him, when she realised that he was ready to marry her and if he couldnt give her a throne, could and would share immense wealth with her. Some might call that gold digging..

Some would be wrong. I've never understood this stance because it's so contradictory. We're told Wallis wasn't given the HRH because the Royal Family were concerned she'd divorce him and go rogue on the Riviera. I don't buy that but let's say for a moment that that's true. A gold digger would have swept off into the night with the thousands of pounds David had given her before his abdication (and the jewellery and the town house) and left him to his own devices. A gold digger would have put up with him until after the war and then divorced him. Wallis didn't. She stayed the course. She also did her bit during the war. She was restricted yes but she made an effort working with the Red Cross and she proved she was adept at a junior consort role when David was Governor General of the Bahamas. Was there anything she did in that role that Princess Alice didn't do when her husband was Governor General of Australia?

Wallis didn't want a crown. She wanted comfort and she got it. The Windsors were not poor by any stretch of the imagination. But does a gold digger nurse someone through a long illness devotedly after 35 years of marriage? And does a gold digger accept that once the man she's "bled dry" has died, she'll end up with very little, alone and shut away in a house in Paris with no friends or relations to look after her? I don't think so.
 
Did she 'accept' it though? Wallis was showing early signs of dementia before David died. He confided to friends that he was worried about her memory loss.

She was in exactly the same position as a lot of childless widows with no close younger relatives. And she was battened on by Suzanne Blum her lawyer, hardly a sign of huge intelligence on her part.
 
Did she 'accept' it though? Wallis was showing early signs of dementia before David died. He confided to friends that he was worried about her memory loss.

She was in exactly the same position as a lot of childless widows with no close younger relatives. And she was battened on by Suzanne Blum her lawyer, hardly a sign of huge intelligence on her part.

I think David's comments have to be seen as those of a man who himself was in poor health by that time and who had no real medical training. I have read that some considered she was becoming forgetful before the Duke's death but I've also read accounts that suggest the Duchess' health problems didn't start until her fall in 1973 when she broke a hip that was left untreated for several months. Things then developed pretty quickly and she contracted various illnesses and maladies that by 1980 had left her a total wreck.

As for Maitre Blum, Hugo Vickers (who knew both women), Diana Mosley (again, who knew both) and Anne Sebba (who met neither) all agree that Wallis was in absolutely no fit state to deal with Maitre Blum who used Wallis' health problems for her own personal gain. When Blum first came onto the scene, Wallis had three other personal assistants: two secretaries and a lawyer. It was Blum who dismissed them once the Duchess was unable to make clear decisions anymore. She bought their silence by giving them trinkets and treasures from the Windsor household which Wallis knew nothing about.

Indeed, after the Duchess experienced a perforated ulcer, Blum ordered that she be kept locked away on the first floor and refused to let anyone see her. She began to sell the house from under her and at least a dozen people have since said that before Wallis lost the power of speech and before her mind broke down completely, the one thing she would always repeat was "I hate you!" to Blum. Lord Mountbatten raised concerns about Blum's involvement in her life but all too late. Blum had arranged it all so perfectly that the Duchess wasn't able to get rid of her. But the Blum that Wallis employed was not the same Blum who eventually became her jailor. I don't think we can blame her for being the victim of elder abuse.
 
Did she 'accept' it though? Wallis was showing early signs of dementia before David died. He confided to friends that he was worried about her memory loss.

She was in exactly the same position as a lot of childless widows with no close younger relatives. And she was battened on by Suzanne Blum her lawyer, hardly a sign of huge intelligence on her part.
was she "battend on" by Suzanne Blum? I haven't read anything abuot her in ages, but is there clear evidence that she was ill treated?
 
well fine but its hard not to feel that she didn't love David but latched onto him, when she realised that he was ready to marry her and if he couldnt give her a throne, could and would share immense wealth with her. Some might call that gold digging..
It is some time since I read a bio of them, but I do recall in someone's diaries or bio, a comment that their relationship came across as if she were "an older woman tolerating the adoration of a younger man" but not reciprocating it..

I really don't believe David cared a jot about whether his love was reciprocated. The only thing which seemed to matter to him was that he loved her, he wanted her, and was determined -at ANY cost- to have her. For her part, I suspect she loved what he could give her, albeit, she paid a high price for it, rather more than she loved him, although she possibly softened towards him, and probably learned to tolerate his stultifying love for her.
 
Nothing new here, the "love story of the Century" is just a myth.
it's a very sad, if not pathetical, story actually.
 
Had the Queen Mother not been in the picture, how different would the relationship between the BRF and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor have been?

I think the Queen had no personal grudge towards them and only excluded them pressured by her mother.

I think we might have seen them invited to royal occasions a lot more often.
 
His crowning humiliation: How Edward endured a life of torment at Wallis's hands and was even subjected to a joke coronation by her gay friend in a New York nightclub


  • Wallis Simpson, who triggered Edward VIII's abdication, soon grew bored of him
  • The American divorcee started outrageous relationships to denigrate the Duke
  • She knew the abdication had made divorce from her new husband unthinkable
  • One of her relationships was with the young Woolworth heir Jimmy Donahue
  • Ignored by his wife, the disgraced Duke ended up dying in the arms of a nurse
  • Extraordinary claims are made in the final extract of Andrew Morton's biography

Wallis Simpson biography reveals how she tired of husband | Daily Mail Online
 
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His crowning humiliation: How Edward endured a life of torment at Wallis's hands and was even subjected to a joke coronation by her gay friend in a New York nightclub


  • Wallis Simpson, who triggered Edward VIII's abdication, soon grew bored of him
  • The American divorcee started outrageous relationships to denigrate the Duke
  • She knew the abdication had made divorce from her new husband unthinkable
  • One of her relationships was with the young Woolworth heir Jimmy Donahue
  • Ignored by his wife, the disgraced Duke ended up dying in the arms of a nurse
  • Extraordinary claims are made in the final extract of Andrew Morton's biography

Wallis Simpson biography reveals how she tired of husband | Daily Mail Online
Thank you.... I'm starting to pity the Duke !
 
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His anti-Semitism and her pure greed make them a perfect match. They deserved each other, and no one else. Thank God they were barren. The only decent thing they ever did was die and leave everything to charity.
 
The Duke was no Saint. But Morton will likely sell a lot of books.

Is anyone really surprised that Wallis did not dote on the infirm, including her husband? And to be fair, I wonder, had she fallen ill how much of her care would have been provided by nurses? Would he have wiped her brow and bum? Not bloody likely!

This is lovely muck about a lady we all love to hate. But the hyperbole about having to rest in piece next to a man she loathed is just silly. She did what she wanted, when she wanted, with whom she wanted all her life. There was a part of her that wanted to be with him in the end; even if the reason was not "one true love."

Lots of people rest next to their life partner. If nothing else, that's what Wallis and Edward were for one another and both understood the upside and the downside to that, IMO. Even if Morton lacks that nuance of understanding.
 
Had the Queen Mother not been in the picture, how different would the relationship between the BRF and the Duke and Duchess of Windsor have been?

I think the Queen had no personal grudge towards them and only excluded them pressured by her mother.

I think we might have seen them invited to royal occasions a lot more often.
I think you are overlooking rather a lot of unpalatable facts about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

Adultery was a fast ticket out of Society, as indeed was divorce. That was just the way it was then, at that time, at that place. Wallis was. at that time divorced once, and while married to her second husband, was David's mistress. Worse, David was saying Wallis was going to divorce her second husband and marry him. You have to remember that during the early part of the century sexuality was considered a mental condition and many young, unmarried women were admitted to asylums forever for the sin of having a lover before marriage.

He did the unthinkable and put himself before his country. For that alone his own mother Queen Mary, while maintaining a degree of contact, would never accept his wife, the instrument of his downfall nor admit her into her presence.

His own father despised his heir and predicted he would ruin himself within a year. He knew the calibre of his own son.

David's actions immediately before and during the war were certainly little short of treasonous.And the truth of his behaviour was unthinkable, let alone unacceptable. Fifty years after the truth started to trickle out.

When Bertie was ill and near death, David was not averse to the notion put forward by some elderly and misogynistic statesmen, that he become Regent to Princess Elizabeth (for an unspecified time) as she was only a woman and far too young to rule. That information may have been buried in the archives for fifty years, but you can bet Queen Mary, (obviously the QM) Elizabeth and Philip knew about it.

QEQM did not rule Bertie, he was quite capable of making his own mind up, but I believe that having been ridiculed as stupid all his life, Wallis' continual insults about Elisabeth being a little housewife, calling her Cookie and other belittling insults and jokes at his wife's expense in society would never have endeared her to him.

Elizabeth married the Duke of York who had no prospects of becoming King as his brother David bein wildly popular and POW, they created their own very unfashionable, happy little family. Bertie himself never aspired to a greater public profile remembering the unremitting humiliation of his youth and ongoing political doubts as to his mental fitness. That is who the QM married and all the rewriting of history is not going to change it.
 
His anti-Semitism and her pure greed make them a perfect match. They deserved each other, and no one else. Thank God they were barren. The only decent thing they ever did was die and leave everything to charity.
Well, you have to remember that he was born in 1894 (ninety years on the day before I was born, as a matter of fact). And it was rather common for people from that generation to be a bit antisemitic. So I won't put too much blame on him for that. And it seems like as flawed as both the duke and the duchess were, both of them went through a lot of rough spots in their lifetimes. So I have to feel some sympathy for them.
 
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I really don't believe David cared a jot about whether his love was reciprocated. The only thing which seemed to matter to him was that he loved her, he wanted her, and was determined -at ANY cost- to have her. For her part, I suspect she loved what he could give her, albeit, she paid a high price for it, rather more than she loved him, although she possibly softened towards him, and probably learned to tolerate his stultifying love for her.
She certainly didn't love him. and I think that yes he DID care about that. It hurt him that she was at times bored by him.. I believe he once said to her in front of people "are you going to send me to bed in tears again". So if that's the case, and that's what I remember, they clearly did have painful rows because she didn't care as much for him as he did for her.. and was often flirtatious with other men.. including her bizarre relationship with J Donahue, which led to David turning the man out of hteir house. He would hardly have "not cared wethter his love was reciprocated" if he was jealous of her feelings for other men or her unkindness as he perceived it towards him. I think as time passed, she did grow to be dependent on him to an extent, as he was on her. they were getting older, they problaby didn't have that many friends who were really real friends, as opposed to "society friends" and so they probably grew closer as they grew older.. and so when he died, Wallis, who was already getting forgetful, became worse and "missed the Duke" more than she might have done had she lost him earlier...
 
I think the idea that she died a virgin is absolutely ridiculous.
 
Yes, even setting aside the fact that she had three spouses, I don't think the married lover Wallis had in China or the car salesman boyfriend she had an affair with in London would hang around simply for her blue eyes and charming conversation!
Her first husband also doesn't appear to be the sort of man who would hesitate to apply for an annulment if his needs weren't being satisfied.
 
Can't believe what I read.... a Virgin ? Really ? Why would she have surgery against having children if she didn't practice how they are made ?:bang::lol::whistling::eek: VERY difficult to believe but of course I have not read the book !

huh? what "surgery against having children"? If you mean a hysterectomy she had one when she was older, problaby due to women's problems or possibly uterine cancer.
 
I know the Guardian is considered a very serious publication, but I think certain book reviews are meant to be farcical.
 
The Guardian is indeed a "high quality" paper, but I don't know what you mean by saying certain book reviews are meant to be farcical. Do you mean that the writer of the book review doesn't intedn it to be serious?
 
huh? what "surgery against having children"? If you mean a hysterectomy she had one when she was older, problaby due to women's problems or possibly uterine cancer.
It has been written several times that she had surgery in Asia to prevent her for getting pregnant when she was Young .... of course I wasn't there to check but I read it a lot of times !
Sorry
 
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