Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[NGalitzine]

But I suppose that the truth gets lost in the "blame the American" rant.

Its not a case of blaming the American because she was an American, but a case of being an American (or a Dane or a Brazilian) she would not have had the same knowledge of British social rules, or the role and powers (or lack there of) of the British monarch or of the role Church of England as a British lady of that time.
Even today I hear American news commentators talking about Elizabeth II ruling as opposed to reigning and probably not understanding the difference.

 

[Grandduchess24]

I know that Edward 7 gave up the throne for his love of wallis but. Really. Did he even think about what he was destined to be. I just know that king George V must have gave a good talk to his son on such a major decision.

 

[Zonk]

I think you meant Edward VIII. Edward VII ruled with his wife,the former Princess Alexandra of Denmark. Further more, George V was already dead but prior to his death, he did not have a deep conversation with Edward regarding his plans to marry Wallis and/or abdicate the throne.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

This is one of the reasons I hate having to debate this event; the non-stop Wallis was American so she is too blame for everything and a "proper English girl" would have known better and not been so uppity.
Wallis could not return to her husband because he wanted to marry another woman. According to some it was Ernest who knew that David wanted to marry Wallis and not Wallis herself. As I have stated numerous times she tried to talk him out of abdicating and even worked with government officials to try and prevent it. Wallis did not want to be queen nor did she think she ever could be. But I suppose that the truth gets lost in the "blame the American" rant.

My dear XeniaCasaraghi,

I think you are being too sensitive about Wallis being an American. We tend to see this story in the light of a great romance, i.e., a man gives up the throne for the woman he loves. Whereas Europeans, having lived under monarchies, would view it as a man who abandoned his duty to marry a woman who probably did not understand that she could never be Queen. It is a matter of one's world view perhaps. However, I don't think Wallis thought about marriage but events seemed to have swallowed her up.

HEY, my 1000 post!

 

[Mermaid1962]

Perhaps he was convinced of that himself, as when he told the Welsh miners "something must be done." I find it hard somehow to imagine Edward paying close attention to lessons about the the constitution or him and his father having cozy chats about the latter's work.

I believe it would have been easy for him to convince her that as PoW/King he was ALLpowerful-who was there to tell her otherwise?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Is it really logical to think that Edward did not know how little power a constitutional monarch had? I don't mean to speculate that either Tsaritsa or Mermaid is illogical; but although Edward was known for being spoiled and selfish, did he really not know that he had little to no power? He lived under Victoria, Edward VII and his father, so I tend to think someone at least had to take him aside one day and explain the difference between reigning and ruling.
As for Wallis not understanding "the rules" wasn't her husband English? He wasn't upper class but I don't think he was ignorant to these supposed "rules" of extra-maritial affairs with a royal.

 

[Zonk]

In all actuality Edward really was ignorant of English constitutional law. Edward opened the whole can of worms when he asked the Prime Minister (Baldwin I believe) to check with the Dominions to see if they would approve of him marrying Wallis. Once he asked for their advice, he was bound by law to take it. Its up for us go guess how it could have situation could have ended without the government's role. Either way, the Cabinet threatened to resign if he married her so most likely he would have gone anyway.

In regard to what is and what is not acceptable. I have always had the opinion that Wallis gets an unfair amount of blame in regards to the Abdication. Edward was English and he knew the deal. He should have had an inkling that Wallis's divorced status would have made her unacceptable. But like most things, he couldn't see past his own opinions.

 

[Jacknch]

I agree with Zonk on this. For years we are led to believe that Wallis was some dreadful woman who somehow stole the King from his throne and his people, yet in truth Edward steered everything towards his own personal desires. His choice at the end of the day was either his throne and his obligations to his people or his girlfriend. He chose his girlfriend despite her protestations and one can hardly blame her for being the type of woman a man would give up a throne for. Yes, she could have broken ot all off and moved back to the US, but why should she do all the work? He could have broken it off and gone back to his job!

 

[Tsaritsa]

..... someone at least had to take him aside one day and explain the difference between reigning and ruling.
As for Wallis not understanding "the rules" wasn't her husband English? He wasn't upper class but I don't think he was ignorant to these supposed "rules" of extra-maritial affairs with a royal.

I don't think it would have been deemed necessary to discuss the difference between reigning and ruling, he only had to follow the examples set out by his forbears, but he was determined in many things to flout the rules. As to knowing the "rules" concerning exta-maritals with royals, whilst I promise you I have no personal experience, I imagine it to be a bit like being elected into parliament-before one is elected, one knows the rules, after election the same rules no longer seem to apply!!!
May I concur here with something VM said regarding your sensitivity about Wallis' nationality. The only point I've made regarding it is to say that because she was OTHER than English she couldn't be expected to understand the "rules" which have always been attached to commoners' relationships with royalty. I stand by my belief that she was never in love with him-fond of, probably-but she never IMO, set out to make a love match, only a conquest and subsequently lost control of the situation and became swept along with it. I also stand by my belief that there were numerous occasions when she longed to be back with solid, dependable Ernest. I may have no liking for Wallis as a personality-albeit she was a woman of her time-but because she never stood a chance against this selfish man who was determined, no matter who was hurt by it, to get what he wanted-she has my sympathy.

 

[Osipi]

I think in the long run, leading up to the abdication, that Edward probably figured he couldn't lose. After a lifetime of a "What David wants... David gets", it was probably unfathomable to him that he'd not get everything exactly as he wanted them. When things didn't go according to his wishes, he was the proverbial petulant child and whined ever after. Even the supposition that he would kill himself if Wallis ever left him proves this. "I'm going to hold my breath and turn blue till you do what I want" kind of thing.

All other aspects of Edward VIII aside, I really don't think the man was emotionally mature enough to be a worthwhile monarch even in the best of times let alone during WWII.

 

[Zonk]

Any all posts relating to http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...f-edward-viii-2011-a-27084-4.html#post1311262 should be posted in the appropriate thread.

Thank you.

Zonk
British Forums Moderator

 

[Aliza]

Galitzine Wallis never wanted to be queen and she tried to prevent David from abdicating. This idea that she wanted to be Queen is a falsehood spread by people who believe she is the boogeyman who "stole their precious king".
Wallis was content in being the king's mistress and had no will to be his wife.
Plus there have been a few mistresses throughout history who were English and didn't play by the rules; perhaps you have forgotten about Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, and Elizabeth Woodville.

I was so glad to see this post, Xenia, you're so very correct, IMHO. Wallis gets a raw deal from so many when she never wanted him to abdicate or to become Queen. Personally, I believe David was determined to find a way out of being King and that his great love for Wallis was in some measure due to her being his way out.

All those who think she should have walked away from him don't realise he would have abdicated anyway and followed her, and can you imagine how much worse her reputation would have been if she had walked out on him and he abdicated?

Another unfair allegation is that Wallis never paid her bills when all her couturiers have stated that she paid them with unusual promptness. I guess once she was cast as the wicked woman people just kept piling onto the caricature and now it's becoming difficult to find anything out about the real woman beneath the image others have drawn and continue to draw about her. Diana Mitford's biography of Wallis is one of my favourites as she knew Wallis so well personally and IMHO it gets the closest to showing Wallis as a real person.

 

[Grandduchess24]

What if..
Edward VIII did not abdicate the throne and never met Wallis or left her because he wanted to fulfill his destiny to become King, who would he have married and what monarch would be constitutional monarch of great Britain and the commonwealth realms.

 

[Osipi]

What if..
Edward VIII did not abdicate the throne and never met Wallis or left her because he wanted to fulfill his destiny to become King, who would he have married and what monarch would be constitutional monarch of great Britain and the commonwealth realms.

This is my own supposition but I think from what I've read about Edward VIII, the chances of him providing a heir to the throne would have been very slim and that Elizabeth II eventually would become Queen but perhaps not as early as she did.

 

[Princess of Durham]

Just curious, but if Edward VIII did not want to be king why all the talk about him setting up a "separate court" if he lived in England? Also, the other bits and pieces about Hitler's plan to put him on the throne? It's nice to think that he really did not want to be king but there are many stories that would lead us to believe otherwise ... unless those were all made up as well. Just curious......

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Just curious, but if Edward VIII did not want to be king why all the talk about him setting up a "separate court" if he lived in England? Also, the other bits and pieces about Hitler's plan to put him on the throne? It's nice to think that he really did not want to be king but there are many stories that would lead us to believe otherwise ... unless those were all made up as well. Just curious......

My dear Princess of Durham,

I don't believe they meant an actual court of a sovereign but instead, Edward VIII may have a group of followers who would make up a "court" for the former king and cause friction and controversy for George VI. Whereas I firmly believe Edward VIII did not want to be King, I also firmly believe once he abdicated, he missed all the perks which came with the office. He did not want the responsibility, just the fun.

 

[Tsaritsa]

You have it exactly right, dear Vassilisos Marcos. An added point is that by intimating that he would happily have remained King with Wallis as his Queen he throws the responsibility for his actions away from himself, something at which I think he was adept. Possibly he honed this talent as a child when he was reprimanded by his, impossible to please, father.

 

[Osipi]

You have it exactly right, dear Vassilisos Marcos. An added point is that by intimating that he would happily have remained King with Wallis as his Queen he throws the responsibility for his actions away from himself, something at which I think he was adept. Possibly he honed this talent as a child when he was reprimanded by his, impossible to please, father.

If I may, I'd like to suggest that if Edward VIII's time was now, what would be considered his "court" could be described more as a "posse" or even in the late 20th century as "groupies". This was the type of environment he preferred and if I'm not mistaken, how he met Wallis in the first place.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Yes, Osipi, groupies and sycophants. I suspect that the young Royals of today can see them from a mile away and avoid them like the plague-very unlike Great uncle David, who I imagine, felt himself to be elevated by their company. I once read, that having, as an adult, read "Jane Eyre" he asked a dinner guest "Who are these Bronts(!!!) Have you ever heard of them?"!!! Clearly, David was never going to be intellectual and that can't be held against him, but IMO, the arrogance, vanity and stupidity which made him believe it unnecessary to expand his mind, can. Years later, Diana would be accused of lacking intellect, and would have been the first to agree, but she made up for it in other, more important ways. She found it possible to carry out her duties without the help and support of the "man I love" under more harrowing and arduous circumstances than, I imagine, David had ever experienced.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Plus Diana was neat and paid attention to her correspondence. She studied the issues relating to her patronages and so on. I know of at least a couple of professionals who were surprised by the grasp she had of certain illnesses. I don't think that Prince Edward, as Prince of Wales or as King, even tried to understand things.

Clearly, David was never going to be intellectual anShe found it possible to carry out her duties without the help and support of the "man I love" under more harrowing and arduous circumstances than, I imagine, David had ever experienced.

 

[NGalitzine]

. Diana Mitford's biography of Wallis is one of my favourites as she knew Wallis so well personally and IMHO it gets the closest to showing Wallis as a real person.

Well the Mitfords and the Windsors did have a couple of things in common, namely politics and exile in Paris.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Watching a documentary on youtube about Wallis Simpson and letters she wrote to Ernest. It was very sad and makes me feel so sorry for Wallis. She reminds me a lot of Camilla, only unfortunately David was no Prince Charles who was willing to play by the rules.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I, too, saw the documentary and like you, XeniaCasaraghi, felt some sympathy for Wallis-within the parameters of who she was-but I find that my sympathy wears a bit thin when I see how her life evolves. David would have done anything for her, so what was there to stop her from getting them both involved with-making a career of-charity work, hosting those, now so famous dinner parties, to raise funds for worthy causes? I suspect that neither had heard, indeed, would have laughed at the idea that duty was the price one paid paid on Earth for privilege. I find it ironic that in the end her jewellery was auctioned off for charity and I am sad beyond words at the long, lonely, protracted death she suffered, but maybe that was the price to be paid for the vapid, selfish, thoughtless life they both led.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

There is always some way to find to blame Wallis for something. Charity is something people should do because they want to. If the Windsor's didn't want to I'm not going to judge them for it. Clearly Wallis couldn't control everything when it came to Edward or else he wouldn't have abdicated. If he wanted to do charity work he could have done it himself. She stayed with him out of duty and loyalty; she didn't want to be marrid to him, perhaps that is her charity. And taking into consideration how she died, I find it appalling that anyone could think such a death was deserving because a person didn't do charity work.

 

[Tsaritsa]

Oh dear! Either I worded my last post extremely badly, for which my profuse apologies, or you misinterpreted my words. I carefully reread it and thankfully found nowhere had I said that those who fail to do charitable works deserve appalling deaths, to have done so would have been alien to my belief system. I did, however, use the word "maybe" because I am convinced that there are no free lunches and for all of us there may come a time when we are required to answer for how we have led our lives and just MAYBE in those answers lays the difference between leaving this world surrounded by those who love us and being remembered with warmth and affection or leaving it alone and for the most part forgotten.

 

[Nice Nofret]

Diana Mitford's biography of Wallis is one of my favourites as she knew Wallis so well personally and IMHO it gets the closest to showing Wallis as a real person.

It's Nancy Mitford you are talking about ; Diana was the beautiful Guinness/Mosley

 

[wymanda]

What if..
Edward VIII did not abdicate the throne and never met Wallis or left her because he wanted to fulfill his destiny to become King, who would he have married and what monarch would be constitutional monarch of great Britain and the commonwealth realms.

I seem to recall reading, but can't remember where, that Queen Mary was matchmaking Edward & one of the Russian Grand Duchesses.

 

[NGalitzine]

It's Nancy Mitford you are talking about ; Diana was the beautiful Guinness/Mosley

Yes, but it was Diana Mitford, Lady Mosely that lived in exile in Paris, knew the Windsors and in many ways had similar politcial beliefs as far as Fascism and Hitler are concerned.

 

[Princess of Durham]

My dear Princess of Durham,

I don't believe they meant an actual court of a sovereign but instead, Edward VIII may have a group of followers who would make up a "court" for the former king and cause friction and controversy for George VI. Whereas I firmly believe Edward VIII did not want to be King, I also firmly believe once he abdicated, he missed all the perks which came with the office. He did not want the responsibility, just the fun.

Thanks so much for your response. I guess by using the term "court" I was misleading. I was thinking more of a group that would somehow appear to be more supportive of him than King George and QE, not that there would be some "real" court. I think the idea of being King for fun rather than the responsbility of being King is exactly how he felt. It's easy to remember the good things about a situation/role and not the bad .... when you are out of it.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Princess of Durham,

You are very welcome. I agree with you that Edward forgot all the duties and remembered all the good things about being King. Can you imagine if he lived in England after abdicating the throne? He would have undoubtedly, intentionally and unintentionally, created problems for George VI. There would have been comparisons drawn on both monarchs and no doubt the rivalry would have been intensified by the high flying set which followed the Duke and Duchess of Windsor and the country set associating with the King and Queen of England.