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  #21  
Old 11-20-2008, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
Most hemophilia is not affected by inbreeding. It takes only one defective gene passed from mother to son to make a hemophiliac. Now if a hemophiliac married his first cousin, a hemophilia-carrier, they could possibly have a hemophiliac daughter but that's so rare, I've never heard of such a case.

The Hapsburg lip wasn't a genetic defect, per se, but a strong dominant facial feature that was passed down from generation to generation. The Hapsburgs courted disaster by marrying uncles to nieces and that causes a whole load of genetic problems.

From what I've read, the risk of birth defects of a child born in a first-cousin marriage is about the same as a woman giving birth to her first child at 40, about a 6% higher chance than the normal population. But marriages from any relations closer than that can cause severe birth defects.
You're absolutely right. It's not so much inbreeding causes defects. When you do not introduce new genes into you, any genetic problems you were carrying before are more likely to show up in your kids because you married a relative who also has that gene. If you come from a family w/o any bad genes, you can possibly avoid all bad genetics by marrying exclusively w/in your family. The chances of passing a bad gene down is random, 50-50. The chances of it showing up rises when you both your parents have that gene. Some are lucky and some are not. Carlos II of Spain was the ultimate posterchild for the problems of Hapsburg inbreeding, yet his sister Margarita Teresa (the infanta in Velázquez's Las Meninas) was physically fine, even though they had the same ancestry.

Queen Victoria's hemophilia gene is believed to came from a mutation from her father. In any instance, she would have passed it to her children, regardless of whether she married a first cousin or not.
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  #22  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:17 PM
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Isn't it strange that they were, the royals, in a sense almost practicing the same marrying techniques as the Ancient egyptians? Having one primary wife, they a secondary to introduce new dna into the gene pool, and then having the primary offspring marry the secondary offspring to keep the line "pure" in a sense?
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2008, 08:52 PM
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Its fascinating to me totally - the whole inbreeding thing...
hahahaha.....
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  #24  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:05 PM
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I think inbreeding is yucky. The last of the Spanish Hapsburgs, Charles II of Spain had a multitude of physical and mental deficiencies that probably showed up thanks to his crazy family tree. Here's a picture of it, it's kind of disturbing actually;



Source: Wikipedia

I know a lot of the royals interbred due to the whole alliances thing and the fact that after a couple centuries, there weren't that many totally unrelated royals in Europe. But it still gives me the heebie jeebies. Good thing the last couple generations of royals have been marrying outside the family though. :)
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  #25  
Old 11-20-2008, 09:10 PM
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Inter-royal marriage adds to the crown! And, Im sure alot of it was pure snobbery, as not wanting to marry beneath them...
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  #26  
Old 11-23-2008, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by EmpressRouge View Post
Carlos II of Spain was the ultimate posterchild for the problems of Hapsburg inbreeding, yet his sister Margarita Teresa (the infanta in Velázquez's Las Meninas) was physically fine, even though they had the same ancestry.
I hadn't thought about that but you're right. They both came from an uncle-niece marriage though which is courting danger.

Carlos' half-sister Maria Theresa married her first cousin, Louis XIV, and their children seemed fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russophile
Isn't it strange that they were, the royals, in a sense almost practicing the same marrying techniques as the Ancient egyptians?
Well not exactly, Russo. Cleopatra married her brother and I don't even think the Hapsburgs did that!
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  #27  
Old 11-24-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave View Post
Were not George IV and Queen Carolina 1st cousins? Didnt the Duke of Cumberland (who became King of Hanover) marry a Mecklenburg 1st cousin (had already "disposed" of two husbands).
Adolphus and Augusta Cambridge were 2nd/2nd Once Removed, correct?
They are not only 1 but other degrees cousins too/
Try here:
Genealogy - roglo
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  #28  
Old 11-24-2008, 07:27 PM
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Thank you!!
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  #29  
Old 11-24-2008, 07:49 PM
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Well not exactly, Russo. Cleopatra married her brother and I don't even think the Hapsburgs did that!
That's why I said, "In a sense"
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  #30  
Old 11-24-2008, 08:37 PM
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I am not sure if Cleopatra or the Hapsburgs had anything to do with it, but the Rothchilds early on were marrying their nieces to keep the money within the family. I was very surprised when I read the story of the different branches of the family and how closely they worked to amass their fortune.
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  #31  
Old 11-25-2008, 03:48 AM
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The idea of first cousins marrying makes me squirm, but the concept of uncle/niece marriages makes me feel quite ill. It's wrong on so many levels.

Assuming it is your father's brother you are marrying, your father becomes your brother-in-law, your siblings are also your nieces and nephews, your children are your siblings' nieces and nephews but also their first cousins, and you are the mother of your own first cousins. Even apart from the general ickyness, it's just too complicated for me.
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  #32  
Old 11-25-2008, 04:04 AM
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The idea of first cousins marrying makes me squirm, but the concept of uncle/niece marriages makes me feel quite ill. It's wrong on so many levels.

Assuming it is your father's brother you are marrying, your father becomes your brother-in-law, your siblings are also your nieces and nephews, your children are your siblings' nieces and nephews but also their first cousins, and you are the mother of your own first cousins. Even apart from the general ickyness, it's just too complicated for me.
How about this? I know a family where the mother of two daughters divorced her husband and married secondly the father of two sons, a widower. So the small girls grew up with their stepbrothers. When they were teenagers, each girl fell in love with one of the stepbrothers and they married as soon as they were adults. They got children. But then both marriges broke up and they were divorced - only to find love with the respective other brother. And again there was a marriage and children. Now explain to anyone how these children are related! And what is blood relation and what is legal relation (as their grandparents were married, but not to the partner who was parent to the children)...and which of the children could marry legally and why.... LOL.
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  #33  
Old 11-25-2008, 04:35 AM
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I think I posted this example somemewhere on these forums already but then...

The most interesting case for me in this topic is the currant Bavarian RF, the branch of prince Ludwig. Most of you know that the Wittelsbach in the 19.th century had some serious cases of mental illness or at least mental problems. Kings Ludwig II. and Otto and their cousin Elisabeth of Austria come to mind.
So it made me curious when I learned that

a) Elisabeth of Austria's husband, emperor Franz Joseph was himself the son of her mother's sister, so half Wittelsbach of Bavaria himself. Elisabeth was descended from a inter-Wittelsbach-marriage, so both father and mother were Wittelsbachs. They had a daughter called Gisela who married her cousin Leopold of Bavaria, a grandnephew of both her Wittelbach-grandmothers. How about the chance of them having healthy children? But they did have them and the descendants living today are as well.

b) Same with the descendants from the marriage of Ludwig and Irmingard of Bavaria, both descendents of numerous Wittelsbach and Habsburg-intermarriages. Healthy children and grandchildren, so one wonders where the disease came from and went to?
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  #34  
Old 11-25-2008, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
How about this? I know a family where the mother of two daughters divorced her husband and married secondly the father of two sons, a widower. So the small girls grew up with their stepbrothers. When they were teenagers, each girl fell in love with one of the stepbrothers and they married as soon as they were adults. They got children. But then both marriges broke up and they were divorced - only to find love with the respective other brother. And again there was a marriage and children. Now explain to anyone how these children are related! And what is blood relation and what is legal relation (as their grandparents were married, but not to the partner who was parent to the children)...and which of the children could marry legally and why.... LOL.
I know things happen, but that's just weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I think I posted this example somemewhere on these forums already but then...

The most interesting case for me in this topic is the currant Bavarian RF, the branch of prince Ludwig. Most of you know that the Wittelsbach in the 19.th century had some serious cases of mental illness or at least mental problems. Kings Ludwig II. and Otto and their cousin Elisabeth of Austria come to mind.
So it made me curious when I learned that

a) Elisabeth of Austria's husband, emperor Franz Joseph was himself the son of her mother's sister, so half Wittelsbach of Bavaria himself. Elisabeth was descended from a inter-Wittelsbach-marriage, so both father and mother were Wittelsbachs. They had a daughter called Gisela who married her cousin Leopold of Bavaria, a grandnephew of both her Wittelbach-grandmothers. How about the chance of them having healthy children? But they did have them and the descendants living today are as well.

b) Same with the descendants from the marriage of Ludwig and Irmingard of Bavaria, both descendents of numerous Wittelsbach and Habsburg-intermarriages. Healthy children and grandchildren, so one wonders where the disease came from and went to?
Some times, the children can be fine, even though their parents are too closely related, But it can go wrong, especially if people in one family marry close relatives in generation after generation, and I guess that's why have such strong feelings towards inbreeding and incest.
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  #35  
Old 11-25-2008, 06:10 AM
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This thread is supposed to be about British Royal first/second cousin marriages.
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  #36  
Old 11-30-2008, 06:10 PM
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I have read that during Henry VIII's early attempts to annull his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, the Pope offered to provide a dispensation for the marriage of his only legitimate daughter Mary to his bastard son Henry FitzRoy (her half-brother), whom he was planning to make King of Ireland, if he agreed to stay with Catherine.

Imagine that !
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  #37  
Old 12-01-2008, 02:13 AM
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I never heard that before, even I though I was familiar with Henry FitzRoy.
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  #38  
Old 12-01-2008, 08:26 PM
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I have read that during Henry VIII's early attempts to annull his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, the Pope offered to provide a dispensation for the marriage of his only legitimate daughter Mary to his bastard son Henry FitzRoy (her half-brother), whom he was planning to make King of Ireland, if he agreed to stay with Catherine.

Imagine that !
Gross!
But intriguining <sic, hey how do I turn spell check back on?> nonetheless. Kinda like a train wreck, you have to watch. . .
So, any sources for this V?
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  #39  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:30 AM
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Yes, I will look it up and post
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  #40  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:50 AM
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Alison Weir: Henry VIII: King and Court, p. 291;
"Cardinal Campeggio arived in London in October 1528. The Pope had secretly instructed him to bring about a reconciliation between the King and Queen, but if that was not possible he was to persuade Katherine to enter a convent, thus freeing Henry to make another marriage. Campeggio soon saw that there was no chance of the former, and the Queen made it very clear that she had no vocation for the religious life: she insisted she was the King's true wife, and nothing would make her say otherwise. As for the Cardinal, who took the opposite viewpoint, Campeggio had no more success with him 'than if I had spoken to a rock'. Moreover, it soon became obvious to the legate what drove the King, and he reported to Clement: 'He sees nothing, he thinks of nothing but Anne; he cannot do without her for an hour. He is constantly kissing her and treating her as if she were his wife.' However, he was quite certain that they had 'not proceeded to any ultimate conjunction.'

Campeggio soon made it clear that Clement was prepared to offer Henry anything except the annullment he so desired, even a dispensation for a marriage between the Princess Mary and her half-brother Henry FitzRoy. He insisted that Pope Julius's dispensation was sound, but the King would not accept this."
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