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  #81  
Old 12-14-2015, 03:30 PM
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I am quite sure the king will never convert and I am almost sure that neither will the princess of Orange. You are right, it would come as a shock to many. The orthodox protestants can be considered the core supporters of the RF, for whom the old triumphate 'God, The Netherlands and Orange' still means something. It must pain some of them that the royal family has different views on religion. Only recently some objected to the RF having too many public engagements on sundays. The criticism on Queen Maxima being too flamboyant also came from one of their newspapers. Nothing new I suppose, in the 30-ties they also complained that CPss Juliana and her husband used their yacht on sundays.

Although the house of Orange has been seen as a champion of protestantism in Europe for centuries, this image is not the complete story. They often sided with the stricter protestants for political reasons (stadholder Maurits, stadholder-King Willem III and king Willem III for example). Also one could argue that William the Silent actually wanted peaceful coexistance of catholicism and protestantism, a sort of ecumenism avant-la-lettre. It took him a very long time to convert to calvinism, only in 1573 after years of warfare. As an aside: the other initial leaders of the Dutch revolt - Ct. Lamoral van Egmond, Prince of Gavere and Ct. Filips van Hoorne- remained catholic until their heads were cut of by the Spanish in 1568.

Another example is Grand Duchess Sophie of Weimar (daughter of Willem II) who financed the establishement of several catholic churches on her estates in present-day Poland. However, when she was curious and wanted to see how a church turned out, she stayed in her carriage in front of the church door and sent one of her ladies-in-waiting inside to inspect the building. She explained: 'a member of the house of Orange does not enter a catholic church'.

Queen Wilhelmina -always regarded as a prototype of old fashioned, staunch Dutch calvinist- was attracted to the ecumenic thought towards the later part of her life (as was her daughter Juliana). Both Wilhelmina as her husband Hendrik were interesed to some sort of esotheric christianity, as the Queen explains in her autobiography. Prince Hendrik even believed in reincarnation. They had a lot of contacts in the theosofic movements and they esp. admired the Indian christian missionary Sundar Singh. I suppose with Wilhelmina these modern thoughts went hand-in-hand with the old ones. In her biography she still relates about The Netherlands as the new Israel: God's chosen people on earth.

Although Queen Beatrix is described in the biography of Jutta Chorus as 'a calvinist to the core', this must relate mostly to the cultural part of it. The preachers that are used by her and the RF are among the most liberal ones we have. At the funeral of Prince Claus it was even mentioned that the prince struggled with believing in God. Carel ter Linden -until his retirement the unofficial court preacher,- even claims that he (the preacher) does not believe in life after death or in a supra-natural being.

As for the Belgians: the revolution and independance from the Dutch was initiated by liberals mostly: lawyers, students, journalists and such. The catholic church played a secundary part as it allied itself with the liberals against WillemI. But it was mainly the liberal middle class that wanted an end to Willem I's semi-authocratic regime. Hence the religion of Leopold didn't matter that much I suppose, a link to England was more important at least. And the earthly powers of the catholic church in Belgium would -and did- surely grow due to the overthrow of Willem I, despite (or perhaps even because) of the fact that his usurpator was a lutheran.

For the catholic church the situation was already a big improvement as Willem I wanted to cut their powers and even thought about creating one national Dutch church where both the Dutch protestant and catholic churches were supposed to be merged and all ties to Rome were to be cut. His idea never became concrete and I suppose it would have been impossible to implement in the 19th century.
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  #82  
Old 12-14-2015, 07:11 PM
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Good for you, and I stand by mine; we obviously don't agree. King WA is not the king of my country, but he is the king of a country with over 50% of its population identifying as atheists. Only around 10% of Dutch Christians identfy as Protestant (mostly belonging to the "Dutch Reformed") and almost 25% identify as Roman Catholic. Long ago, in the very distant past, the Holy See used to interfere with politics and policies of numerous countries and would attempt to sway opinions in its favor; that is not the situation at this point in history. Irene and Carlos Hugo were married many years ago; the Netherlands now has a Catholic Queen consort, and times are very different than even 50 years ago.

Actually, according to official statistics, about 16 % identify as either PKN or Dutch Reformed; another 5 % can be classified as "other Christian" , and about 25% are Catholic. Back when Princess Irene got married, probably about 40 % or so of the population was Dutch Reformed.

It is also incorrect to say that 50 % of the Dutch population self-identifies as "atheist". Slightly under 50 % claim to be "non-religious", which includes both atheists, agnostics, or people who believe in the existence of some kind of "deity", but are not followers of any organized religion.
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  #83  
Old 12-14-2015, 07:19 PM
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Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.

I don't know about all sacraments/rites, but the Catholic church recognizes the validity not only of Orthodox baptisms, but also of Anglican, Lutheran, or even Presbyterian/Reformed baptsms. People who were baptized in any of the aforementioned churches are not (and in fact must not be) baptized again if they convert to Catholicism.
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  #84  
Old 12-16-2015, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am quite sure the king will never convert and I am almost sure that neither will the princess of Orange. You are right, it would come as a shock to many. The orthodox protestants can be considered the core supporters of the RF, for whom the old triumphate 'God, The Netherlands and Orange' still means something. It must pain some of them that the royal family has different views on religion. Only recently some objected to the RF having too many public engagements on sundays. The criticism on Queen Maxima being too flamboyant also came from one of their newspapers. Nothing new I suppose, in the 30-ties they also complained that CPss Juliana and her husband used their yacht on sundays.

Although the house of Orange has been seen as a champion of protestantism in Europe for centuries, this image is not the complete story. They often sided with the stricter protestants for political reasons (stadholder Maurits, stadholder-King Willem III and king Willem III for example). Also one could argue that William the Silent actually wanted peaceful coexistance of catholicism and protestantism, a sort of ecumenism avant-la-lettre. It took him a very long time to convert to calvinism, only in 1573 after years of warfare. As an aside: the other initial leaders of the Dutch revolt - Ct. Lamoral van Egmond, Prince of Gavere and Ct. Filips van Hoorne- remained catholic until their heads were cut of by the Spanish in 1568.

Another example is Grand Duchess Sophie of Weimar (daughter of Willem II) who financed the establishement of several catholic churches on her estates in present-day Poland. However, when she was curious and wanted to see how a church turned out, she stayed in her carriage in front of the church door and sent one of her ladies-in-waiting inside to inspect the building. She explained: 'a member of the house of Orange does not enter a catholic church'.

Queen Wilhelmina -always regarded as a prototype of old fashioned, staunch Dutch calvinist- was attracted to the ecumenic thought towards the later part of her life (as was her daughter Juliana). Both Wilhelmina as her husband Hendrik were interesed to some sort of esotheric christianity, as the Queen explains in her autobiography. Prince Hendrik even believed in reincarnation. They had a lot of contacts in the theosofic movements and they esp. admired the Indian christian missionary Sundar Singh. I suppose with Wilhelmina these modern thoughts went hand-in-hand with the old ones. In her biography she still relates about The Netherlands as the new Israel: God's chosen people on earth.

Although Queen Beatrix is described in the biography of Jutta Chorus as 'a calvinist to the core', this must relate mostly to the cultural part of it. The preachers that are used by her and the RF are among the most liberal ones we have. At the funeral of Prince Claus it was even mentioned that the prince struggled with believing in God. Carel ter Linden -until his retirement the unofficial court preacher,- even claims that he (the preacher) does not believe in life after death or in a supra-natural being.

As for the Belgians: the revolution and independance from the Dutch was initiated by liberals mostly: lawyers, students, journalists and such. The catholic church played a secundary part as it allied itself with the liberals against WillemI. But it was mainly the liberal middle class that wanted an end to Willem I's semi-authocratic regime. Hence the religion of Leopold didn't matter that much I suppose, a link to England was more important at least. And the earthly powers of the catholic church in Belgium would -and did- surely grow due to the overthrow of Willem I, despite (or perhaps even because) of the fact that his usurpator was a lutheran.

For the catholic church the situation was already a big improvement as Willem I wanted to cut their powers and even thought about creating one national Dutch church where both the Dutch protestant and catholic churches were supposed to be merged and all ties to Rome were to be cut. His idea never became concrete and I suppose it would have been impossible to implement in the 19th century.
Amazes me people actually have a problem with a Dutch monarch becoming Catholic. The Queen consort is Catholic, many in the extended DRF are also Catholic. WA will never officially become Catholic, but my doubts concern the Princess of Orange. She may one day convert to her mother's and many of her extended families' religion. If there is no state religion in the Netherlands, and more christians there are Catholic, why would that be a problem?
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  #85  
Old 12-16-2015, 10:21 AM
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i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.
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  #86  
Old 12-17-2015, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.
I was thinking pretty much the same and maybe even WA is doing just that
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  #87  
Old 12-17-2015, 01:52 AM
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catholic, protestant, even orthodox are different types of christianity. thus those people are changing denominations, not religions

as for the khazars, the conversion was not universal. they also accepted other religions and did not force their populace to become jewish when their khagan did
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  #88  
Old 12-17-2015, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i doubt amalia would become catholic officially, but if she chooses to follow catholic beliefs or traditions, she may do so privately without any issues. both religions being christian, i doubt the difference between them is so large that someone not knowing her, or those of us following royalty, would ever notice.
Amalia is currently attending a Protestant school. Presumably the main reason her parents chose that school is its academic strength, but I wouldn't be surprised if reliigion also played a part in the decision. Protestants may be a minority in the Netherlands today, but the country's elite is still mostly Protestant and, through its association with the royal family, the Protestant Church still has an informal "semiofficial" role, at least as the Church of choice for public ceremonies like royal weddings, christening and funerals.
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  #89  
Old 12-18-2015, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NotHRH View Post
Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.


1) King Otto is not an example taken from "a few centuries ago". He was the first monarch of modern Greece, which, we should not forget, was founded only in the 19th century, and reigned until 1862. Not yesterday, but still proper modern era history, clearly.
The reason why his example is important is because it set such a precedent in Greek affairs, that forced the next king and dynasty to institutionalize the 'Orthodoxy of the throne', -a provision which has survived the country's passing on to republican constitution; as confessing the Orthodox creed remains a constitutional requirement for the now-elected leader of the Greek state.

2) It is a very frequent custom especially in diaspora that Orthodox services are carried in temples of other denominations. Yet this is only practical facilitation (and usually there is a kind of rent for the use of the space), and has nothing to do with common worship. In fact the Orthodox priest can not hold a mass in an altar consecrated by an other church -should he use their space for the service, he carries with him, instead, the 'antiminsion', the vestment that can function as the equivalent to an Orthodox altar for services outside the premises of an Orthodox church.

In the case of Princess Alexia, it's the first time I hear that her son was christened Catholic. It is certainly kept private; and in any case, we talk about a junior royal -in no meaningful place in the line of succession, or with any prospects of any public role in Greece. And it increasingly seems that the latter is also the case for his mother. As a permanent resident of Spain -and with spanish as the main language in her household-, she makes her own private choices in those matters.

3) Yes, the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council (I think) does accept the sacraments of other denominations -including the Orthodox. Yet, this is not BY ANY MEANS true in the Orthodox Church. There has been no decision of any autonomous Orthodox church that accepts such principle, and, for whoever knows the Orthodox, there will never be. I live in an Orthodox country and am aware how far Orthodox mentality is from accepting such a principle or practice.
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  #90  
Old 12-18-2015, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Amalia is currently attending a Protestant school. Presumably the main reason her parents chose that school is its academic strength, but I wouldn't be surprised with religion also played a part in the decision. Protestants may be a minority in the Netherlands today, but the country's elite is still mostly Protestant and, through its association with the royal family, the Protestant Church still has an informal "semiofficial" role, at least as the Church of choice for public ceremonies like royal weddings, christening and funerals.
Even so, I know she us being exposed to Catholicism anyway. Maybe she attends midnight mass in Argentina while on holiday there with her mother's family for Christmas. It basically a "sin" to photograph the DRF doing things that invade their privacy, so who knows? She and her sisters can always convert if they so choose when they are older. 👸👑
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  #91  
Old 12-19-2015, 01:02 AM
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1) King Otto is not an example taken from "a few centuries ago". He was the first monarch of modern Greece, which, we should not forget, was founded only in the 19th century, and reigned until 1862. Not yesterday, but still proper modern era history, clearly.
The reason why his example is important is because it set such a precedent in Greek affairs, that forced the next king and dynasty to institutionalize the 'Orthodoxy of the throne', -a provision which has survived the country's passing on to republican constitution; as confessing the Orthodox creed remains a constitutional requirement for the now-elected leader of the Greek state.

2) It is a very frequent custom especially in diaspora that Orthodox services are carried in temples of other denominations. Yet this is only practical facilitation (and usually there is a kind of rent for the use of the space), and has nothing to do with common worship. In fact the Orthodox priest can not hold a mass in an altar consecrated by an other church -should he use their space for the service, he carries with him, instead, the 'antiminsion', the vestment that can function as the equivalent to an Orthodox altar for services outside the premises of an Orthodox church.

In the case of Princess Alexia, it's the first time I hear that her son was christened Catholic. It is certainly kept private; and in any case, we talk about a junior royal -in no meaningful place in the line of succession, or with any prospects of any public role in Greece. And it increasingly seems that the latter is also the case for his mother. As a permanent resident of Spain -and with spanish as the main language in her household-, she makes her own private choices in those matters.

3) Yes, the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council (I think) does accept the sacraments of other denominations -including the Orthodox. Yet, this is not BY ANY MEANS true in the Orthodox Church. There has been no decision of any autonomous Orthodox church that accepts such principle, and, for whoever knows the Orthodox, there will never be. I live in an Orthodox country and am aware how far Orthodox mentality is from accepting such a principle or practice.
I did not mean to imply that about the the Orthodoxy diaspora. I was really only stating what you stated in your post's second point. No harm meant/didn't mean to offend you or anybody else. You got way more out of my post than I meant for anybody to. An aside - seems the Roman Catholic Church is more accepting of other religions and religious beliefs and have always been taught that by my "Church." Again no offense meant.
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  #92  
Old 12-19-2015, 07:52 AM
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Your described scenario is from a few centuries ago. Within the past 10 years or so, HRH Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark, who lives in Lanzarote, the Canary Islands, Spain, was able to baptize her 3 daughters into the Greece Orthodox faith in her local Catholic church. Permission was received from the Holy See as well as the appropriate powers - that - be of the Greek Orthodox faith. Her son was baptized there also, but he was baptized Roman Catholic, his father's faith. The Catholic Church will accept the sacraments/rites of Eastern Orthodox churches and perform them on behalf these churches, especially in areas where there are few to no Eastern Orthodox churches. People and official church doctrine of most religions, especially in the western world, have had much progression and continue to move forward. Do they disagree - yes, but they will hopefully continue to progress and continue to move forward, especially with atheism and Islam knocking on Christianity's door.
Just a small correction . All children Princess Alexia including her son Carlos baptized as Orthodox.
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  #93  
Old 12-20-2015, 06:37 AM
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Just a small correction . All children Princess Alexia including her son Carlos baptized as Orthodox.
Well then I stand corrected - just repeated what I saw that in another part of this forum. :)
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  #94  
Old 12-20-2015, 07:26 AM
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Nazli Sabri,queen and queen mother of Egypt converted from Islam to Roman Catholicism which must have caused quite a stir at the time.
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  #95  
Old 02-14-2016, 03:42 PM
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catholic, protestant, even orthodox are different types of christianity. thus those people are changing denominations, not religions

as for the khazars, the conversion was not universal. they also accepted other religions and did not force their populace to become jewish when their khagan did
As did the Mongol Khanates in general:

Mongol Empire and Religious Freedom | HistoryOnTheNet


I have a strong feeling that @the very least SOME of the Khazarian Royalty/Nobility quite possibly embraced BOTH Tengriism, *&* Judaism, (as well as maybe other belief-system(s)), because, after all, it IS possible to be a Jewish/Hebraic-Wiccan &/or a Generic Pagan, a HinJew, (Jewish Hindu), &/or a JuBu, (a Jewish Buddhist), etc.!!


SIDE-NOTE: For the record, I'm an Eclectic Pagan, (always have been, always will be in my beliefs, probably in previous lifetimes as well, definitely in future incarnations as well!!), & I identify with *ALL* of the above, & many other spiritualities of various sorts as well!!
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  #96  
Old 02-15-2016, 12:21 AM
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I don't doubt it. however, there is very little documentary evidence for the khazars. and, as we are considering individual beliefs, we will never be certain. I am also aware of early mongol tolerance. however, this became less so after they converted to islsm
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  #97  
Old 02-16-2016, 01:34 AM
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As did the Mongol Khanates in general:

Mongol Empire and Religious Freedom | HistoryOnTheNet


I have a strong feeling that @the very least SOME of the Khazarian Royalty/Nobility quite possibly embraced BOTH Tengriism, *&* Judaism, (as well as maybe other belief-system(s)), because, after all, it IS possible to be a Jewish/Hebraic-Wiccan &/or a Generic Pagan, a HinJew, (Jewish Hindu), &/or a JuBu, (a Jewish Buddhist), etc.!!


SIDE-NOTE: For the record, I'm an Eclectic Pagan, (always have been, always will be in my beliefs, probably in previous lifetimes as well, definitely in future incarnations as well!!), & I identify with *ALL* of the above, & many other spiritualities of various sorts as well!!
I do realize there are many forms/types of spiritualality in ever corner of the world, and person's beliefs are their own. But when someone posts about identifying with being a JuBu, amongst the various others you stated, it was for the "shock" value rather than for information purposes. This topic is about royals who convert to other religions, and not about our own religious or spiritual beliefs.
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  #98  
Old 02-16-2016, 03:34 AM
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I do realize there are many forms/types of spiritualality in ever corner of the world, and person's beliefs are their own.
I agree someone's beliefs are private and no ones else's business. Its 2016 I think its silly that people are still being made to convert before they can marry someone. People have enough problems they don't need to add religion to the mix. If you truly love someone your not going care what religion they are or believe in. I think its a practice this royal houses need to do away with.
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