Royal-Royal Marriages Today

[Duc_et_Pair]

Prince Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Princess Olga of Greece
https://www.hola.com/imagenes/reale...es/olga/grecia/hijo/0-72-979/2009-03-09-a.jpg

It wasn't only the fact that princess Irene of the Netherlands became a Catholic and married Carlos Hugo, duke of Parma that caused the uproar in the Netherlands, it was as much the fact that the Spanish general Franco was in favour of the marriage. General Franco had supported Nazi Germany and the Dutch had not forgotten the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands during the Second World War.

Not even that was the stumble block.

In the Netherlands the Cabinet is accountable for acts of the King (and in extension also for members of the House of the King). The Cabinet was not willing to bear ministerial responsability for someone whom deployed very political activities (Carlism) in a quest for the headship of state of a foreign country.

As long as Don Carlos Hugo was not willing to cease all his political activities, there was no chance the Cabinet would offer a Bill of Consent to the States-General (Parliament). Don Carlos Hugo and Princess Irene then made the decision to engage in marriage anyway, without an Act of Consent. Had Don Carlos Hugo given up his political activities, then Princess Irene still would be a member of the Royal House today, like her sisters Princess Beatrix and Princess Margriet.

That Franco was the head of state played no role. Was it not Franco but King Felipe: it is still unacceptable for the Dutch Government when one of the daughters of the King would marry someone who wants the secession of Catalonia, for an example. They would simply refuse to bear ministerial responsability for a member of the Royal House deploying political activities in a foreign country. In such a case Amalia, Alexia or Ariane would face the same fate as their great-aunt Princess Irene: the end of their membership of the Royal House and cease to be a successor to the throne.

De Handelingen ("The Acts", the Dutch equivalent of the Hansard) which has all written records of the parliamentary proceedings, describes in detail the concern of all fractions in the Second Chamber (the Lower House) by being "dragged into" and become answerable for foreign political adventures of the Number Two in the line of succession. All fractions did offer well-meant congratulations to the highborn couple and spoke about the grand prestige of the forthcoming Orange-Nassau - Bourbon-Parma alliance "but no...." there was no any way they could support a member of the Netherlands' Royal House having political aspirations in a foreign country.

 

[Stefan]

Even though Count Arco-Zinneberg has many royal ancestors through femail lines his family is not royal. His wife, Archduchess Maria Beatrice, is a full-blooded royal descendant of the Habsburgs, Savoys, Orléans', Parmas and many others

True. But all the mediatized Famkilies are not really royal even if they are accepeted as equa. I would classifiy as that the reigning and former reignigng Houses.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Lady Brigid Guinness ,daughter of 2nd Earl of Iveagh married Prince Frederick of Prussia in July 1945.

Her daughter,Princess Antonia married the future Duke of Wellington in 1977.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

During the debate about Princess Irene and her engagement with Carlos Hugo de Bourbon de Parme there were two main topics:

- was the Government answerable for members of the Royal House as the Constitution explicitly speaks about The King only? ("The King is inviolable, the ministers are responsible")

- could a non-protestant actually become a King indeed?

On the first question the then Cabinet established the "derivative responsability" for members of the Royal House: yes, indeed, the Constitution only speaks about The King, but the closer to the King, the stronger the ministerial responsability extends. And as Number Two, Princess Irene was a very possible future King. This with the eye on the political activities of the future bridegroom.

On the second question the then Cabinet refused to have a debate: the Prime Minister stated that this (the religion of the King) was not at order and also not something the Cabinet had any opinion about at all.

 

[Countessmeout]

The Lady Brigid Guinness ,daughter of 2nd Earl of Iveagh married Prince Frederick of Prussia in July 1945.

Her daughter,Princess Antonia married the future Duke of Wellington in 1977.

And her daughter Lady Honor Wellesley married The honorable Orlando Montagu, second son of the Earl of Sandwich.

Lord Max Percy, youngest child of the Duke of Northumberland, is married to Princess Nora of Oettengin-Spielberg.

His cousin Lucy, a maternal granddaughter of the 10th Duke, is married to Prince Khalid of Saudi Arabia. (Khalid interestingly enough was engaged to Donald Trump Jr's ex-wife Vanessa, but the engagement was broken after 9/11.)

Nora's brother, the hereditary prince of Oettingen-Spielberg is married to Baroness Cleopatra von Adelsheim von Ernest.

 

[Prinsara]

well, it differs but only a few days after Catharina-Amalia was born a member of the Belgian parlament suggested to change the law in Belgium that makes it impossible for a member of heir royal family to marry an Orange-Nassau, in case Gabriel of Belgium and she would end up together. I anything this was treated b a joke in the media and seen as an opportunity to write about that law and where it came from.

Usually the speculation start when they are in their late teens, I think.

(From 2007.)

Good call, Marengo? ?

 

[Curryong]

The Lady Brigid Guinness ,daughter of 2nd Earl of Iveagh married Prince Frederick of Prussia in July 1945.

Her daughter,Princess Antonia married the future Duke of Wellington in 1977.

That was quite a brave move on Lady Brigid’s part in July 1945, I suppose, with the end of the war so imminent and memories so fresh.

Of course Prince Frederick was no Nazi and was studying at Cambridge when war broke out in 1939. I believe Lady Brigid was an auxiliary nurse during the war and met her future husband when he suffered a tractor accident.

I think Frederick was interned from 1940 on, partly in Canadian camps and became a naturalised British citizen in 1947.

 

[Marengo]

(From 2007.)

Good call, Marengo? ?

Ah, I forgot all about that but it is good to know that if all things fail I can start a carreer with Madame Zelda and a chrystal ball at the funfair.

Since Amalia talked in the book about her 18th birthday about German boys being more courtious than the Dutch ones I am sure the magazines will start selecting a few German nobles for her.

 

[BigLenny]

Since Amalia talkedin the book about her 18th birthday about German boys being more courtious than the Dutch ones I am sure the magazines will start selecting a few German nobles for her.

After reading this, I'm immediately reminded that I ship her with Count Richard von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth (Princess Benedikte of Denmark's oldest grandchild). He may not be royalty, but the ship's still interesting to think of, especially since he's a descendant of Queen Victoria of the UK and King Christian IX of Denmark, and the Dutch royals aren't descendants of either monarch.

Anyway, to get back on topic, what about dynastically equal marriages between royals from different continents? I know there aren't many Christian royal families outside Europe, but the ones that do occasionally spark my interest. What if by some fluke Prince George marries a Tongan princess, and his sister Charlotte in turn marries the Tongan crown prince's son? That would be fun to watch.

As for the present ones, chances are that we'll have to wait and see. I admit that it doesn't stop me from forming royal-royal ships in my head, such as Prince Constantine Alexios with either Infanta Maria Francisca or Princess Senate Mohato Seeiso of Lesotho. I also have some bizarre ships, such as Crown Prince Hussein of Jordan with Princess Maria-Olympia before the latter started dating Peregrine.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can imagine Princess Catharina-Amalia dating a dynast of the House Osmanoğlu (which ruled the Ottoman Empire for centuries) or a Prince of the Hashemite House (Jordan) or the Alaouite House (Morocco).

It will certainly cause fierce debate, but history shows the Oranges are not afraid for controverses about marital partners. The problem will probably be that the islamic Prince has to agree with a neutral upbringing, to begin with.

It is most unlikely but there are Westerners marrying into islamic royal houses, so why not the other way round? Alexandra Manley from Hong Kong has led the way.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Ah, I forgot all about that but it is good to know that if all things fail I can start a carreer with Madame Zelda and a chrystal ball at the funfair.

Since Amalia talked in the book about her 18th birthday about German boys being more courtious than the Dutch ones I am sure the magazines will start selecting a few German nobles for her.

Amalia's natural habitat of "boys with more courteoisie" to me seems her parents' family and friends in the Netherlands/Germany and Austria: Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein, Von Waldburg-Zeil und Hohenems, Von Oeynhausen, De Beaufort, Von Bismarck, Jankovich de Jeszenice, Collot d'Escury, Von der Recke, Alting von Geusau, Von Jenisch, Zu Ortenburg, etc. Not necessarily the usual names from Chapter One of the Almanach de Gotha.

 

[Marengo]

I imagine a Mr. Schneider, a Mr. Müller or a Mr. Schmidt will perhaps not likely be among the German acquaintances yet. But I suppose in the next years the princess will meet and create friendships with many new people during her studies.

Curiously enough there is a letter of the late foreign minister Joseph Luns in the National Archives in The Hague in which he writes about prince Bernhard's request to help Beatrix to find a husband. Although an Englishman was the preference of the minister, the princess said that she preferred a German one as they were less cold. IIRC the anecdote is featured in the Luns biography by Albert Kersten but I was also able to read the letter some years ago in the national archives.

I can imagine Princess Catharina-Amalia dating a dynast of the House Osmanoğlu (which ruled the Ottoman Empire for centuries) or a Prince of the Hashemite House (Jordan) or the Alaouite House (Morocco).

I can not, not the latter two options at least. Parliament would have some serious questions about human right violations over there & the wisdom of having a future head of state closely associated with it. I can imagine several political parties not giving their consent to such a wedding, both from the right ánd the left.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Mariel I agree with you about the children of Maria-Teresa and Henri of Luxembourg. I have only recently "discovered" this beautiful family and can't get enough of them now...they are everything a modern Royal Family should be, imo.

Guillaume's fiancee was made to order for him, his family and for the Grand Duchy.

A linguist with a Master's degree who plays piano and violin(like he does) who seems hardworking and conscientous(just like him) and who is a committed Catholic(just like him).

Whose family was ennobled in the Middle Ages and once ruled parts of Northern France.

It's almost too perfect, to be honest....I simply cannot wait for the wedding.

I know this is old, but I want to respond to this. The assumption that Stephanie “was made to order” for Guillame isn’t a nice assumption to make.

 

[Prinsara]

It's a compliment.

Since despite august lineage, I don't believe the de Lannoys regularly socialized with the Grand Ducal family, so Steph could not possibly have been somehow trained and molded for Guillaume. That she seemed to meet every facet of the job description brilliantly as her own person is what's usually called "serendipity", if that is more preferable.

And as it turned out, not everything was perfect — they had an extremely difficult time producing an heir.

Although most people seem to think little Charles is even more perfect than his mum, anyway.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

It's a compliment.

Since despite august lineage, I don't believe the de Lannoys regularly socialized with the Grand Ducal family, so Steph could not possibly have been somehow trained and molded for Guillaume. That she seemed to meet every facet of the job description brilliantly as her own person is what's usually called "serendipity", if that is more preferable.

And as it turned out, not everything was perfect — they had an extremely difficult time producing an heir.

Although most people seem to think little Charles is even more perfect than his mum, anyway.

To me sounded as if the poster was implying that Guillaume couldn’t choose his own wife so Stephanie was “selected” which isn’t a nice thought. It doesn’t matter whether the de Lannoys have or had regularly interacted with the family prior to the marriage, the de Lannoys have mostly married within their own milieu and the German/Franco/Belgian nobles have mainly married in their own milieu. All I will say is that they and the Grand Ducal family are very blessed to have the adorable little Charles. But thank you for offering an alternative understanding of the comment.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I know this is old, but I want to respond to this. The assumption that Stephanie “was made to order” for Guillame isn’t a nice assumption to make.

Stephanie and Guillaume are both old fashioned , old school aristocrats. They seem perfect for one another.

What isn't a "nice assumption to make" is thinking I meant something derogatory or negative about my comments because I definitely did not.

There was no implication that there was any "grooming" on either side...any more than the idea that the parenting that Haakon and Carl-Philip received led them to marry former party girls.

In each case they married women who suited them and added positive things to their lives, and thank goodness all of them seem quite successful.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Stephanie and Guillaume are both old fashioned , old school aristocrats. They seem perfect for one another.

What isn't a "nice assumption to make" is thinking I meant something derogatory or negative about my comments because I definitely did not.

As Prinsara correctly pointed it, it was a compliment.

But using the term “made to order” doesn’t necessarily sound nice either, at least in my eyes. But I was not trying to insult you, but understand your perspective on it because it sounded strange to me. I stand corrected on what you typed and as explained by @Prinsara, I finally understood what you meant. Thank you for explaining what you meant.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

In retrospect I agree with you that I should have expressed myself differently!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In retrospect I agree with you that I should have expressed myself differently!

I understood what you meant the first time, for the same reasons articulated by Prinsara. It is common usage to characterize an individual idiomatically as "made to order" when they are perfectly suited for someone or something else, which in the context of a marriage would usually be considered a nice compliment. And there has never been any suggestion (as far as I know) that the literal meaning of the term (which would mean the countess being trained to attract her future husband) would be applicable to this couple.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

In retrospect I agree with you that I should have expressed myself differently!

That is fine in all honesty, I understand your viewpoint much better now. I wasn’t on the forum at the time you made the post, I joined this month but I have been reading the forum for months. If I had joined at the time you made the post maybe I would have understood it in your terms back then.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I understood what you meant the first time, for the same reasons articulated by Prinsara. It is common usage to characterize an individual idiomatically as "made to order" when they are perfectly suited for someone or something else, which in the context of a marriage would usually be considered a nice compliment. And there has never been any suggestion (as far as I know) that the literal meaning of the term (which would mean the countess being trained to attract her future husband) would be applicable to this couple.

My initial understanding from the poster’s comment was that Stephanie was “selected” for Guillaume. But I understand the term much better now.

 

[Prinsara]

Usually it's also easier to say something like "Wait, I don't understand. I always thought Steph met Guillaume on her own?" rather than 'this isn't nice'. It gets all points across faster.

I'm happy to help with clarity, but think about it. If Moonmaiden had said they were "a perfect match" at the time, would you have assumed Stephanie and Guillaume were an arranged marriage? Context and tone is important.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Usually it's also easier to say something like "Wait, I don't understand. I always thought Steph met Guillaume on her own?" rather than 'this isn't nice'. It gets all points across faster.

I'm happy to help with clarity, but think about it. If Moonmaiden had said they were "a perfect match" at the time, would you have assumed Stephanie and Guillaume were an arranged marriage? Context and tone is important.

Given the way a number of people on the forum who roll eyes at dynastic royal or noble matches, I wasn’t sure. I wouldn’t have assumed bad thoughts if someone said perfect match because they share similar qualities in both being well educated, speaking multiple languages, similar social circles, Proud Catholics, from very old family lineages of the Low counties, his paternal grandmother was a princess of Belgium and she’s from a distinguished family from Belgium, both of them have ties to the de Ligne and Arenberg families through marriage and blood. But I understand better and will simply ask a nicer question.

 

[Mbruno]

Many people say that royal families from different countries are often different from each other (as in some are more "relaxed", others are more formal or hierarchical, etc.). Nevertheless, I think that, broadly speaking, all royal families in Europe still share far more in common than they differ from each other. Basically they all have more or less similar constitutional roles and more or less similar "job descriptions". Overall, I don't think their lifestyles are that much different either.

In this sense, I think there is still a valid argument that, when a royal prince marries a princess from another reigning royal family, her "adaptation" to her new role as a full-time working royal in her adoptive country is much easier as, to a certain extent, she already grew up in a similar environment and has been groomed from birth for a royal life or typical "royal duties". Marrying someone from a non-reigning royal family who lives basically a celebrity life and does not undertake any public engagements doesn't have any advantage, however, over marrying a non-royal in my opinion.

The problem is, nevertheless, that the pool of reigning royal families in Europe is now very limited and there aren't that many possible matches assuming that the marriages are not supposed to be purely arranged, but rather that the people who are getting married should genuinely like each other.

 

[kalnel]

Reading this thread is fun -- it reminds me of all the speculation back in the 80s/90s about matches between Philippe of Belgium and Cristina of Spain, Felipe of Spain and Tatiana of Liechtenstein or Fleur of Wurtemberg, WA of Netherlands and Alexia of Greece, and Frederik of Denmak and Martha-Louise of Norway, etc.

Who is coming up in the next generations? Oscar of Sweden and Charlotte of Cambridge? Estelle of Sweden and Sverre of Norway? George of Cambridge and Leonore of Sweden? Nikolai of Denmark and Catherine-Amalia of the Netherlands?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Reading this thread is fun -- it reminds me of all the speculation back in the 80s/90s about matches between Philippe of Belgium and Cristina of Spain, Felipe of Spain and Tatiana of Liechtenstein or Fleur of Wurtemberg, WA of Netherlands and Alexia of Greece, and Frederik of Denmak and Martha-Louise of Norway, etc.

Who is coming up in the next generations? Oscar of Sweden and Charlotte of Cambridge? Estelle of Sweden and Sverre of Norway? George of Cambridge and Leonore of Sweden? Nikolai of Denmark and Catherine-Amalia of the Netherlands?

Those matches are highly unlikely and I doubt we will see a royal-to-royal match or at least aristocratic in those reigning houses, the only houses I think will make the cut on the aristocratic or royal matches will be Liechtenstein and possibly Belgium, (which isn’t guaranteed in the case of Belgium).

 

[JR76]

Those matches are highly unlikely and I doubt we will see a royal-to-royal match or at least aristocratic in those reigning houses, the only houses I think will make the cut on the aristocratic or royal matches will be Liechtenstein and possibly Belgium, (which isn’t guaranteed in the case of Belgium).

Joseph Wenzel of Liechtenstein has been in a relationship with an American woman for a few years now.

 

[kalnel]

Those matches are highly unlikely and I doubt we will see a royal-to-royal match or at least aristocratic in those reigning houses, the only houses I think will make the cut on the aristocratic or royal matches will be Liechtenstein and possibly Belgium, (which isn’t guaranteed in the case of Belgium).

You might want to take some of these posts, including mine, in the light-hearted spirit in which they are intended, not as predictions about who children will marry decades from now.

 

[Mbruno]

You might want to take some of these posts, including mine, in the light-hearted spirit in which they are intended, not as predictions about who children will marry decades from now.

George of Cambridge and Leonor of Sweden, or Oscar of Sweden and Charlotte of Cambridge would be good matches, but so were William of Wales and Madeleine of Sweden and that never came to pass.

Gabriel of Belgium would be a good match for Leonor, Princess of Asturias, but, for Catharina-Amalia of the Netherlands, Felix of Denmark may be a better match than his brother.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

You might want to take some of these posts, including mine, in the light-hearted spirit in which they are intended, not as predictions about who children will marry decades from now.

Ok. I’ve heard