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  #21  
Old 03-29-2007, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hereditary Mapmaker

QUESTIONS FOR ANYONE/EVERYONE:

When do these discussion start? When they are born? When they reach 18 years of age?

Do you think that any of the single royals, heirs and otherwise, are aware of these discussions? Wouldn't they feel really strange meeting at events afterward?

Mapper
well, it differs but only a few days after Catharina-Amalia was born a member of the Belgian parlament suggested to change the law in Belgium that makes it impossible for a member of heir royal family to marry an Orange-Nassau, in case Gabriel of Belgium and she would end up together. I anything this was treated b a joke in the media and seen as an opportunity to write about that law and where it came from.

Usually the speculation start when they are in their late teens, I think. You see lists apear in boulevard magazines with 'available' princesses. When WA was in his late twenties rumours started that he was seeing one of the Bavarian princesses (sisters of the hereditairy princess of Liechtenstein) due to the fact that they attended the birthday celebrations of HM The Queen. As WA just broke up with his long term girlfriend Emily Bremers I had high hopes for such a match, but helas...

I do not think many heirs will be scrolling through boulevard magazines to see what is written about them, but they are probably aware of some speculations, but probably treat it as a joke. I remember a Dutch interviewer asking the Fuerst of Liechtenstein if his daughter Tatiana and the Prince f Orange had ever met and making hints. In the end poor Hans-Adam fled the room, saying he had pressing business to attend (in the middle of the interview). It was rather funny to watch.

Anyway my own preferences would be:

Phillipe of Belgium and Elena of Spain
Willem-Alexander and Cristina of Spain
Frederik of Denmark and Matha-Louise
Felipe and Maria-Carolina of Bourbon-Parma
Charles and Marie-Astrid
I agree with Constantijn and Victoria.
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  #22  
Old 03-29-2007, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Quin
It's a real shame that crown princes or princesses are not required to marry equally to suceed to the throne. When royals do not follow historical protocol, they will soon become history. They simply cannot have their cake and eat it too!
well traditions change, societies change and the monarchy has to change as well in order to survive. Personally I would prefer 'equal' marriages, but we have to agree that many royals married commoners and seem to be going strong. And the commoner-royals seem to do a very good job too, so...
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  #23  
Old 03-29-2007, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
It's a real shame that crown princes or princesses are not required to marry equally to suceed to the throne. When royals do not follow historical protocol, they will soon become history. They simply cannot have their cake and eat it too!
For the good order: this has never been a requirement in most monarchies!
It was a self-imposed restriction, never enforced or backed by a Constitution or a law. Show me in British, Dutch, Belgian, Norwegian, whatever, Acts that a monarch should marry Ebenbürtig.

Back then it was in the best interest of ruling families to strengthen the ties, to make alliances, etc. But World War I has shown that all this was a complete farce, with the cousins George V, Wilhelm II and Nicolas II, and many more monarchs, powerlessly witnessing their Realms dragged into a never-seen hellfire.

Since then royal-royal alliances have no any extra meaning except for keeping up the tradition.
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  #24  
Old 03-29-2007, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
It's a real shame that crown princes or princesses are not required to marry equally to suceed to the throne. When royals do not follow historical protocol, they will soon become history. They simply cannot have their cake and eat it too!
You couldn't have said it better! The difference between the young royals and other young rich people is getting very blurred!
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  #25  
Old 03-29-2007, 05:40 AM
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That depends how they are raised I think. One can se that for example Amedeo of Belgium is raised in the old fashioned way and he will never be comparable to the likes of Paris Hilton. Fergie however is dragging her daughters to all these celebrety parties where they socialise with people like Kate Moss, which makes it blurry indeed.
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  #26  
Old 03-29-2007, 09:36 AM
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Well, I would have to do some more research into the matter, but I know that when royals in some countries made less than equal marriages, they often lost their title, as well as losing their rights in the line of succession. This I believe was actually borne out by law in Germany, but I am not sure. I will look into it some more and let you all know what I find.
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  #27  
Old 03-29-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress
Well, I would have to do some more research into the matter, but I know that when royals in some countries made less than equal marriages, they often lost their title, as well as losing their rights in the line of succession. This I believe was actually borne out by law in Germany, but I am not sure. I will look into it some more and let you all know what I find.
Yes, in Germany and in Austria, not always in Civic Law but often vested in 'House Laws'. But Germany and Austria are no longer a monarchy. Neither are Russia, Italy, France, Portugal....
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  #28  
Old 03-29-2007, 04:11 PM
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Well, I'll just say that since royals started marrying outside of their own families, there seems to have been a decrease in genetic defects.
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  #29  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:58 PM
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No but it was definitely a valid law in some countries. Which was the point that I was trying to make.
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  #30  
Old 03-29-2007, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gloriana
Well, I'll just say that since royals started marrying outside of their own families, there seems to have been a decrease in genetic defects.
Well Queen Victoria's descendents inherited hemophilia but hemophilia is actually more common in the normal population than it has been with royals. So being royal really had nothing to do with it.

What other genetic defects are you aware of?
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  #31  
Old 03-30-2007, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Well Queen Victoria's descendents inherited hemophilia but hemophilia is actually more common in the normal population than it has been with royals. So being royal really had nothing to do with it.

What other genetic defects are you aware of?

Some of Queen Victoria's descendants suffered from porphyria (sp?) and there's the infamous Habsburg Lip as well, which you can still see among many Habsburg descendants.

Wikipedia has an article about royal intermarriage Royal intermarriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've also noticed that several of the German princes and dukes are still marrying Princesses/Duchesses/Countesses/Baronesses in order to maintain the bloodlines. The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.
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  #32  
Old 03-30-2007, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morhange
The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.
Dr. Otto von Habsburg as current head of the Habsburg-Lothringen-family strongly believes in the equality of all people. At least that's a basic law he represented when he was a MP at the European Parliament for Germany. That's probably the reason why he doesn't hesitate to declare even the most exotic wifes of one of his Archdukes as "ebenbürtig" - coequal according to the House laws of the Imperial and Royal family.

It's different with Georg Friedrich von Preussen - he owns his position as current (but equivocal) head of the Hohenzollern-family to the fact that his grandfather Louis Ferdinand disowned his two eldest sons because of their non-equal marriage to commoners. Georg Friedrich is the heir of the third son who had married an coequal noble lady, a countess Castell-Rüdeshausen. His uncle, the eldest son of Louis Ferdinand, has contested this decision. So if Georg Friedrich would marry a commoner himself, he would loose his position according to the laws which granted it to him. So what can he do?

As for the idea of equality which is so important in the former Holy Roman Empire of Germany: I just read the book "The rise of the House of Habsburg" by Gerhard Herm. In it the historian explains the politics which made the Habsburg (which are not one of the oldest ruling families in Germany, the Wittelsbachs or the Welfs are far older) into the most prominent family of Germany for centuries. This rise was based on the idea that each and every Habsburg lived the idea that his family is the most noble and used every mean they possessed to do public relations for that aim. Eg the tile of Archduke: there wasn't such a title at all! But when Habsburg started to rise, the positions of the electing princes were already fixed and there was no place in that august society for the Habsburg-ruler of Austria. Rudolf IV. of Habsburg in 1362 had an idea: as beloved son-in-law of emperor Karl IV. (of the house of Luxembourg), married to the emperor's favorite daughter, he simply faked documents (among them some which claimed to be of Roman (!) descent) and stated that the Habsburgs were the most noble family of the empire, the only family with a right to call their offspring "Arch"duke. The emperor laughed about that, but to please his daughter he did not really act against these fakes. And Rudolf asked of his people to call him "Archduke" from then on. When in 1452 Friedrich III. of Habsburg became emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, he accepted the faked documents officially as "real" and valid.

In addition the Habsburg started to devide the German nobles in equal and non-equal ones. Equal were all who had a seat at the "Reichstag" - priviledges which only the the most mighty and noble family could grant and which meant active power in Germany. Only members of these families could get married to an Habsburg. Of course all families strived to be advanced to this position on remaining loyal to Habsburg... Aconcept that worked till Napoleon in 1806 threw over the Holy Roman Empire, forced the Habsburgs out of Germany and opened up the way for the Prussian Hohenzollern to power in Germany.

So the idea of equality was more a political idea than one about families. It had not much to do with the history of noble families but with their actual power and relationship to Habsburg. There are a lot of "uradelige" (historically noble) families which can trace their lineage back to before 1300 who are not considered of the Higher nobility - that's those who could marry into the House of Habsburg. And there are families of the higher nobility who are not as old as that - eg the Thurn und Taxis, which started out in the 1500s as postmasters of the Habsburgs, but could marry one Royal princess after the other.

Hope this helps a bit on undertsanding the German concept of nobility.
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  #33  
Old 03-31-2007, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
It's a real shame that crown princes or princesses are not required to marry equally to suceed to the throne. When royals do not follow historical protocol, they will soon become history. They simply cannot have their cake and eat it too!
To All Those Who Responded:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for love, but remember royalty / monarchy is about a call to duty. Whether required by law or not, unequal marriages cause wedge issues between monarchies and their subjects.


And yes of course times change, but be advised that it’s these same forces that have led to the abolition of monarchies. The Danes claim that their royal family has taken the role as that of an ideal family. Hard to survive on such a contention, but if that's what the majority of Danes want or the way other royal houses want to end their reigns, so be it. As for commoners, they have done some good but at an expense worth it or not. I will say however commoners have contributed to a healthier gene pools.

I would be most impressed if a royal said that he/she will marry a commoner, forfeit succession rights, financial support and work as sa mall farmers and/or grocers to survive or whatever skill they have without trading on their name. Some royals have taken up such humble occupations, occasioned by the abolition of the monarchy in their respective kingdoms. These types of royals are very impressive. They will do what it takes to survive and pick themselves up from a fall and carry on. This is an ideal if not a virtue. These people should be given more study. Have a couple of books on the subject. Will provide later.

I am not particularly interested in what a royal is wearing, their sexual orientation or other tawdry details. Royal students should resist the loss of this scholarship to fantasy and celebrity. The history of those royals born after 1945 will not be more than a gossip headline. If things go as they have, royal history as we know it will become ancient royal history.


For those attending the Royalty Weekend (Ticehurst UK), I will see you there.
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  #34  
Old 03-31-2007, 04:19 PM
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[quote=Quin]To All Those Who Responded:

Whether required by law or not, unequal marriages cause wedge issues between monarchies and their subjects.

I don't agree with this statement. It may have been true in the past and certainly of the hardline traditionalists who hold on to the old beliefs about royalty, but I believe there have been many examples (King George VI & Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum; King Carl XVI & Queen Silvia, The Prince of Orange & Princess Maxima to name a few) that have shown that rather than a wedge, the marriage increased the popularity and loyalty of the monarchy, particularly in the case of Sweden.

I would be most impressed if a royal said that he/she will marry a commoner, forfeit succession rights, financial support and work as sa mall farmers and/or grocers to survive or whatever skill they have without trading on their name. Some royals have taken up such humble occupations, occasioned by the abolition of the monarchy in their respective kingdoms. These types of royals are very impressive. They will do what it takes to survive and pick themselves up from a fall and carry on. This is an ideal if not a virtue. These people should be given more study. Have a couple of books on the subject. Will provide later.

Likewise, I do believe that exploring the lives of these "former" royals and the way they adapted is impressive and inspirational at times. But isn't the study of their lives interesting because of their royal status rather than their "doing what it takes" and "picking themselves up"? Certainly many people in the world do those things. I might be wrong, but IIRC most of the abolition of a monarch has had nothing to do with whom they married, equal or not, but rather how their subjects/citizens perceived them and the manner in which they ruled/governed their respective nations. In fact, the fall of the German monarchies had nothing to with these things. The sovereign authority of those families and nations was taken away as a punishment by the Allied or victorious powers in the wars.

I am not particularly interested in what a royal is wearing, their sexual orientation or other tawdry details. Royal students should resist the loss of this scholarship to fantasy and celebrity. The history of those royals born after 1945 will not be more than a gossip headline. If things go as they have, royal history as we know it will become ancient royal history.
quote]

I have considered myself to be a bit of intellect snob < ed > in the discussions of royalty. However, I choose to participate in this forum where many of the members discuss the fashion, love lives, and "tawdry details" of the royals. In so doing, I choose to be a part of those discussions as well. Certainly, there are a number of threads in this forum that accomplish - even through the discussion of these seemingly trivial things - a greater understanding of royals past and present and sometimes can inspire any of us to be curious and do the research in the more serious (boring) aspects.

All of that being said, I really appreciate your viewpoint and hope to hear more about those royals who became a part of "regular" society. I look forward to the information.

Thanks, Mapper
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  #35  
Old 03-31-2007, 08:10 PM
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Mapper:

The implicit point of the post is to provoke thought, as it did in your case, and not to seek approval.

The comments are based on historical trends over various periods of time and not in the case of one or a few royal houses. No one (me included) can expect an opinion to be an undisputable fact, and yes there are exceptions to every rule, otherwise there would be no debate.

In the end, I suppose royal history is studied and interpreted like the way scotch is consumed and that’s the way you like it.

Sincerely wishing you the very best.

Q
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  #36  
Old 03-31-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quin
Mapper:



In the end, I suppose royal history is studied and interpreted like the way scotch is consumed and that’s the way you like it.


Q
LOL, touche', Quin! By the way I take mine neat.
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  #37  
Old 03-31-2007, 10:44 PM
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CP Frederik of Denmark and Princess Märta Louise of Norway.

CP Philippe of Belgium and Infanta Elena of Spain.

CP Haakon of Norway and Infanta Cristina of Spain.

CP Felipe of Spain and Princess Alexandra (or Nathaly) of Denmark, both daughters of Princess Benedikte (in fact, Princess Benedikte was Queen Sophia's bridesmaid. The Queen every year invited the two young princesses to Mallorca, and it is well known that she would have been delighted if one of them had become her daughter in law.
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  #38  
Old 04-01-2007, 01:16 AM
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^Isn't Haakon too young for Cristina?
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  #39  
Old 04-01-2007, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetcher
^Isn't Haakon too young for Cristina?
Well, she is five years older than her husband. What's another five years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn
CP Frederik of Denmark and Princess Märta Louise of Norway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn

Seems like a good match, Saturn. I hadn't even thought about it. But considering the fun-loving nature of the two, it might have been successful (although, I think Frederik prefers a more "glamorous" type of woman).

CP Felipe of Spain and Princess Alexandra (or Nathaly) of Denmark, both daughters of Princess Benedikte (in fact, Princess Benedikte was Queen Sophia's bridesmaid. The Queen every year invited the two young princesses to Mallorca, and it is well known that she would have been delighted if one of them had become her daughter in law.
This might have been really interesting. Considering that both Queen Ena and Queen Sofia converted to Catholicism, I wonder what preference the Spanish citizens of today would have - Letizia, who was Catholic but had a previous marriage or one of the Berleburg princesses.

Thanks for the responses.

Mapper
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:20 PM
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I heard that there was speculation that Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Prince Albert of Monaco were an item a few years back, but I think it was nothing, they were just hanging out at a party or something. This may be a little off topic, but it's royal-royal relationship, so could somebody confirm this?

I couldn't imagine any royal-royal marriages between the ones who are already married, since I think so many of them are very well-matched, and I couldn't see any others together.
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