Royal-Royal marriages today

[Quin]

Mapper:

The implicit point of the post is to provoke thought, as it did in your case, and not to seek approval.

The comments are based on historical trends over various periods of time and not in the case of one or a few royal houses. No one (me included) can expect an opinion to be an undisputable fact, and yes there are exceptions to every rule, otherwise there would be no debate.

In the end, I suppose royal history is studied and interpreted like the way scotch is consumed and that’s the way you like it.

Sincerely wishing you the very best.

Q

[QUEENECE29]

maybe Prince William of Wales and Princess Theodora of Greece ...

[grace marie]

Originally Posted by QUEENECE29

maybe Prince William of Wales and Princess Theodora of Greece ...

I've read in some newspaper such like this: William and Theodora will be perfect match. Theodora is even a far cousin of him. But it's one detail: They don't like each other.

I wonder if it is true?

[lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by grace marie

I've read in some newspaper such like this: William and Theodora will be perfect match. Theodora is even a far cousin of him. But it's one detail: They don't like each other.

I wonder if it is true?

They are cousins, some distant way. Through Prince Phillip. But it wouldn't affect them very much.

[Marengo]

That depends how they are raised I think. One can se that for example Amedeo of Belgium is raised in the old fashioned way and he will never be comparable to the likes of Paris Hilton. Fergie however is dragging her daughters to all these celebrety parties where they socialise with people like Kate Moss, which makes it blurry indeed.

[Empress]

Well, I would have to do some more research into the matter, but I know that when royals in some countries made less than equal marriages, they often lost their title, as well as losing their rights in the line of succession. This I believe was actually borne out by law in Germany, but I am not sure. I will look into it some more and let you all know what I find.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by Empress

Well, I would have to do some more research into the matter, but I know that when royals in some countries made less than equal marriages, they often lost their title, as well as losing their rights in the line of succession. This I believe was actually borne out by law in Germany, but I am not sure. I will look into it some more and let you all know what I find.

Yes, in Germany and in Austria, not always in Civic Law but often vested in 'House Laws'. But Germany and Austria are no longer a monarchy. Neither are Russia, Italy, France, Portugal....

[Gloriana]

Well, I'll just say that since royals started marrying outside of their own families, there seems to have been a decrease in genetic defects.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Gloriana

Well, I'll just say that since royals started marrying outside of their own families, there seems to have been a decrease in genetic defects.

Well Queen Victoria's descendents inherited hemophilia but hemophilia is actually more common in the normal population than it has been with royals. So being royal really had nothing to do with it.

What other genetic defects are you aware of?

[morhange]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Well Queen Victoria's descendents inherited hemophilia but hemophilia is actually more common in the normal population than it has been with royals. So being royal really had nothing to do with it.

What other genetic defects are you aware of?

Some of Queen Victoria's descendants suffered from porphyria (sp?) and there's the infamous Habsburg Lip as well, which you can still see among many Habsburg descendants.

Wikipedia has an article about royal intermarriage Royal intermarriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've also noticed that several of the German princes and dukes are still marrying Princesses/Duchesses/Countesses/Baronesses in order to maintain the bloodlines. The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by morhange

The laws among Austrian and German royals seem more lax, although I remember reading that Georg-Friedrich, Prince of Prussia was dating Princess--Sophie, I think, of Isenberg. They seem to stick to the nobility.

Dr. Otto von Habsburg as current head of the Habsburg-Lothringen-family strongly believes in the equality of all people. At least that's a basic law he represented when he was a MP at the European Parliament for Germany. That's probably the reason why he doesn't hesitate to declare even the most exotic wifes of one of his Archdukes as "ebenbürtig" - coequal according to the House laws of the Imperial and Royal family.

It's different with Georg Friedrich von Preussen - he owns his position as current (but equivocal) head of the Hohenzollern-family to the fact that his grandfather Louis Ferdinand disowned his two eldest sons because of their non-equal marriage to commoners. Georg Friedrich is the heir of the third son who had married an coequal noble lady, a countess Castell-Rüdeshausen. His uncle, the eldest son of Louis Ferdinand, has contested this decision. So if Georg Friedrich would marry a commoner himself, he would loose his position according to the laws which granted it to him. So what can he do?

As for the idea of equality which is so important in the former Holy Roman Empire of Germany: I just read the book "The rise of the House of Habsburg" by Gerhard Herm. In it the historian explains the politics which made the Habsburg (which are not one of the oldest ruling families in Germany, the Wittelsbachs or the Welfs are far older) into the most prominent family of Germany for centuries. This rise was based on the idea that each and every Habsburg lived the idea that his family is the most noble and used every mean they possessed to do public relations for that aim. Eg the tile of Archduke: there wasn't such a title at all! But when Habsburg started to rise, the positions of the electing princes were already fixed and there was no place in that august society for the Habsburg-ruler of Austria. Rudolf IV. of Habsburg in 1362 had an idea: as beloved son-in-law of emperor Karl IV. (of the house of Luxembourg), married to the emperor's favorite daughter, he simply faked documents (among them some which claimed to be of Roman (!) descent) and stated that the Habsburgs were the most noble family of the empire, the only family with a right to call their offspring "Arch"duke. The emperor laughed about that, but to please his daughter he did not really act against these fakes. And Rudolf asked of his people to call him "Archduke" from then on. When in 1452 Friedrich III. of Habsburg became emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, he accepted the faked documents officially as "real" and valid.

In addition the Habsburg started to devide the German nobles in equal and non-equal ones. Equal were all who had a seat at the "Reichstag" - priviledges which only the the most mighty and noble family could grant and which meant active power in Germany. Only members of these families could get married to an Habsburg. Of course all families strived to be advanced to this position on remaining loyal to Habsburg... Aconcept that worked till Napoleon in 1806 threw over the Holy Roman Empire, forced the Habsburgs out of Germany and opened up the way for the Prussian Hohenzollern to power in Germany.

So the idea of equality was more a political idea than one about families. It had not much to do with the history of noble families but with their actual power and relationship to Habsburg. There are a lot of "uradelige" (historically noble) families which can trace their lineage back to before 1300 who are not considered of the Higher nobility - that's those who could marry into the House of Habsburg. And there are families of the higher nobility who are not as old as that - eg the Thurn und Taxis, which started out in the 1500s as postmasters of the Habsburgs, but could marry one Royal princess after the other.

Hope this helps a bit on undertsanding the German concept of nobility.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

Dr. Otto von Habsburg as current head of the Habsburg-Lothringen-family strongly believes in the equality of all people. At least that's a basic law he represented when he was a MP at the European Parliament for Germany. That's probably the reason why he doesn't hesitate to declare even the most exotic wifes of one of his Archdukes as "ebenbürtig" - coequal according to the House laws of the Imperial and Royal family.

But the last 3 "exotic" brides Maya Askaria, Ashimta Goswami and Mayasuni Heath became all Archduchesses after their marriage. A few years ago the House Laws where again lowered and n o the only requirement has that the bride belongs to an christian faith.

[Empress]

No but it was definitely a valid law in some countries. Which was the point that I was trying to make.

[HRH Kerry]

Prince Felipe of Spain and Princess Tatjana of Liechtenstein.

[Alison20]

This is a fun thread so one shouldn't get too serious. But the exchange between Quin and Henri M about whether the 'ebenbuertigkeit' rule was universal among European Royalty is interesting.

From the British perspective, this was always considered a very 'Continental' requirement - particularly among the German-speaking families.

To the best of my knowledge, this was never a requirement of either the English or Scottish royal houses. Although there were often politically useful dynastic marriages in the Middles Ages, and even later on, it was not a necessity, and many monarchs married into the high nobility.

Queen Victoria was extremely liberal in her views. One of her daughters was allowed to marry a non-Royal Scottish Duke (the Duke of Argyll) with no loss of privilege. She often invited members of her distant German relatives who had married into nobility to Britain. These people were not looked on with favour in the Austrian, German, etc. courts. She was quite happy for her grandson to marry Princess Mary of Teck (she became Queen Mary). Although Mary's mother was Pss Mary Adelaide, a British princess and first cousin to the Queen, her father was the son of a Prince of Wurrtemberg who had married merely a noble lady. He lost his right to the throne of Wurrtemberg and was given the non-royal title of Duke of Teck. Since Victoria was a major royal who didn't need the approval of the other monarchs, they just had to 'grin and bear it'.

Even the Edward VIII would probably have got away with marrying Wallis Simpson if she had not been divorced (twice at that).

[Marengo]

Darn. a pity that he didn't! Bianca is rather pretty indeed, she also featured in the Vanity Fair special about young royals, I believe.

[RoyallyRich]

I would prefer to see Royals marry only other Royals.I am not too convinced with all these recent trends of real life Cinderellas.

[Maura724]

No, two heirs cannot marry each other, so a female William could not marry Frederik, and, in a more realistic example, Frederik or Haakon could not marry Victoria. One of them would have to renounce their throne.

[Princess B]

prince harry and princess madeliene sounds rather interesting

for prince william one of the casiraghi sisters (i know they r not royal,but still)

crown princess victoria with prince edward (had he not been married)

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Princess B

for prince william one of the casiraghi sisters (i know they r not royal,but still)

There is only one Casiraghi girl, Charlotte...