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  #1  
Old 10-07-2004, 12:24 AM
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Royal Relevance

Do you think that the concept of royalty these days is relevant? Do you think that in this day and age, there should be such things as royal families?
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Old 10-07-2004, 12:41 AM
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Australian,
I think it depends on each individual country and its people. Mind you, the Monarch's and their families provide a continuity that isn't there with elected presidents/prime ministers ect. Take for example when the American President came to Australia some years ago. He was told that he and his wife would be the guests of Mr Hawke & his lovely wife, Hazel. Instead he arrives to find his host to be Mr Keating & his non Australian wife, Anita.
When visiting Britain a foreign head of state/President knows that his hostess will be HM Queen Elizabeth & her husband the Duke of Edinburgh and he/she won't get any nasty surprises.
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:10 AM
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European monarchies are symbols of nationality and of social contract. The social contract the men show adherance to is attribted, if my memory is correct, to Chateaubriand (but I won't guarantee it). In that contract, a ruling class was given leisure to train for war and property to raise war horses. The people below got leadership and defense.

Louis XIV breached the contract to avoid a repitition of the Fronde where nobles attempted to overthrow the monarchy. The nobles had no function left so they weren't holding up their end of the contract, but they kept their wealth and privilege. The French people cancelled that contract in 1789.

This is why most royal men are seen in uniform, aboard men of war, or flying Panavia Tornado attack jets. Prince Charles or Prince Felipe is holding up his end of the contract. The European social contracts became very nice in the late 20th century, although they may be becoming more austere due to competition from lower wage nations. The social contract included higher educations for kids who passed the exams, help with medical care, and retirement. For us rugged individualist Americans, these ideas are strange, but they are de rigeur in Europe. The monarch symbolizes nationhood and much more.

I'll get off the soap box after saying something about nationhood. The Dutch set an environmental policy where enterprises were left free to meet the environmental policies set by the country as a whole. That is also strange in America where each group is out for its interest first and where environmental laws are prescriptive and created after bitter political winner-take-all duels and enterprises attempt to duck obligations and deny the obvious. The non-partisan monarch symbolizes a people who can work together — nationhood.
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Old 10-07-2004, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gogm

This is why most royal men are seen in uniform, aboard men of war, or flying Panavia Tornado attack jets.
Well, this is something I hope will end soon.
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2004, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennism
Well, this is something I hope will end soon.
Are you saying that Princes like Charles, Andrew, Frederick & Felipe who have earned rank in the armed forces should be stopped wearing uniform??
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Old 10-07-2004, 04:15 AM
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Countries like Canada are in a precarious position. We have a queen but ask most Canadians and they'll tell you that she doesnt play any significant, if any, role in their lives. Some will say its nice to maintain traditional ties with the "mother country" others want the link severed. We've even had politicians who refused to take the oath of allegiance to the Queen while being sworn in as members of parliament. Since there's a large population of Canadians of non-European decent, many of them simply dont feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth. I was watching a story on the news a couple of months ago about a guy who was raised in Canada but refused to take his citizenship oath because he felt that the British monarchy symbolized exploitation and oppression of millions of people around the world. (you have to swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth in your canadian citizenship oath)
Australian you'd probably relate to this. How do most Australians feel about it?
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Old 10-07-2004, 07:13 PM
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here in Australia its very similar to Canada in that most young people don't feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth and the Royal Family, although we failed to become a republic in the last referendum that was mainly to do with the model of a republic we were asked to vote on and not an underlaying loyalty to the Monarchy, its only a matter of time before we drop the Monarchy. I think swearing allegiance to the Queen has been taken out of the Australian Citizen Oath, though I could be wrong
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Old 10-07-2004, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
Are you saying that Princes like Charles, Andrew, Frederick & Felipe who have earned rank in the armed forces should be stopped wearing uniform??
No, if they want to that is up to them.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2004, 10:56 PM
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Well yes, this issue has been a very popular one. We had a referendum a few years ago and it turned out that most Aussies wanted the Queen. Not because they wanted to keep the monarchy but because of other policies that came along with it. But now, it is safe to say that most Australains want a republic, with a new flag minus the union jack. We are independant in every sense of the word but technically, we arent. Some aussies want to keep their ties with Britain becuase of history, The results are borderline to eachother on whether the monarchy stays or goes. A lot of Aussies(not all) think Queen Elizabeth doesnt play a big role and i guess she doesnt- how can you be head of state of a country that is lightyears away? She gets informed of the goings on but you need to actually be here to understand. It is predicted by a credible source that within the next 5 years, Australia will become a republic.
Most of us want an Aussie to open Olympic games and to be head of state, not a non-aussie. But i also think we should not lose all ties with britian if we do become a republic because of the jistory factor.
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Old 10-07-2004, 10:58 PM
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i think it could be taken out, saxon, im not sure, but i know that at citizenship ceremonies, the Aussie national anthem is played and so is the British one.
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:10 AM
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I was actually surprised that Australia still has the union jack on the its flag. Canada got its own flag during the 1960s. It was a huge debate ofcourse between traditionalits who were pro-British and those who wanted a flag that was uniquely Canadian. We got our own anthem long before that. We, however, have had no referendums regarding the monarchy issue. Canada's also in a unique position because of French-Canadians. France and Britain are technically the two "founding nations" of Canada. There are French Canadians who'd like to see the link with the British monarchy severed. When the Queen was last here in 2002, there was a group of French Canadians who showed up to protest her visit.
But it sounds to me like there's a lot of debate taking place in Australia. Nothing so serious is happening here. Perhaps because most Canadians feel that we are a fully independent nation as it is. Ofcourse that doesnt mean that we dont have people who'd like the Queen to go. I dont think, however, that Canada would become a republic if we were to drop the queen. Our style of government is closer to the British Parliamentary system than the American republic. I think most Canadians would like it to stay that way.
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Old 10-09-2004, 02:47 AM
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Well today Australia votes for the election. If Labor wins, we get rid of John howard and welcome Mark Latham. If Latham wins election, we would most probably say goodby to Queen Elizabeth. We find out results tonight
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Old 10-09-2004, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxon
here in Australia its very similar to Canada in that most young people don't feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth and the Royal Family, although we failed to become a republic in the last referendum that was mainly to do with the model of a republic we were asked to vote on and not an underlaying loyalty to the Monarchy, its only a matter of time before we drop the Monarchy. I think swearing allegiance to the Queen has been taken out of the Australian Citizen Oath, though I could be wrong
I took the Australia citizen oath this year and i do not recall anything in reference to the Queen so i think they have indeed removed such allegiance from the oath we pledge before God or whatever religious leader you believe in...Being an Australian i feel absolutely NO attachment ot the Queen sometimes i forget she is head of this country altogether! hahaha

I want to get rid of John Howard! ^___^
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Old 10-09-2004, 03:11 AM
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Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha
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Old 10-09-2004, 06:32 AM
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I would say no, but then again, I'm an American. Therefore, it is hard for me to understand since I don't live in a country that has a monarchy.

However, I do enjoy learning about the royal families of the world.
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Old 10-09-2004, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda
Australian,
I think it depends on each individual country and its people. Mind you, the Monarch's and their families provide a continuity that isn't there with elected presidents/prime ministers ect. Take for example when the American President came to Australia some years ago. He was told that he and his wife would be the guests of Mr Hawke & his lovely wife, Hazel. Instead he arrives to find his host to be Mr Keating & his non Australian wife, Anita.
When visiting Britain a foreign head of state/President knows that his hostess will be HM Queen Elizabeth & her husband the Duke of Edinburgh and he/she won't get any nasty surprises.
Yes, they do provide a continuity, and in more ways than one. More specifically, I think that with increased homogenization in the 'global culture', and the push towards more and more economic, political, and social integration, (eg. European Union), the existing monarchies will become even more relevant. They will serve a huge 'cultural' purpose, and people will help provide people with a sense of national idenity in the age of disappearing borders & chaning identies. A sense of cutural and national continuity, if you will.
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Australian
Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha
Thank the Lord that isn't going to happen! Howard & the Liberal Party returned by an increased majority.
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Australian
Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha
He's going to win...DAMN! Another more years for him to unleash his evilness hahahaha...oh well at least Rove can continue to hassle him to go on his show...hahaha...by the way this may seem irrelevant but does the Queen vote for our prime minister? does that woman do anything related to the election???
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Old 10-09-2004, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Australian
Do you think that the concept of royalty these days is relevant? Do you think that in this day and age, there should be such things as royal families?
The only thing that matters is that I care about royalty (JK!)
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Old 10-09-2004, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~Humera~*~
I was actually surprised that Australia still has the union jack on the its flag. Canada got its own flag during the 1960s. It was a huge debate ofcourse between traditionalits who were pro-British and those who wanted a flag that was uniquely Canadian. We got our own anthem long before that. We, however, have had no referendums regarding the monarchy issue. Canada's also in a unique position because of French-Canadians. France and Britain are technically the two "founding nations" of Canada. There are French Canadians who'd like to see the link with the British monarchy severed. When the Queen was last here in 2002, there was a group of French Canadians who showed up to protest her visit.
But it sounds to me like there's a lot of debate taking place in Australia. Nothing so serious is happening here. Perhaps because most Canadians feel that we are a fully independent nation as it is. Ofcourse that doesnt mean that we dont have people who'd like the Queen to go. I dont think, however, that Canada would become a republic if we were to drop the queen. Our style of government is closer to the British Parliamentary system than the American republic. I think most Canadians would like it to stay that way.
Getting rid of the monarchy here in Canada is really a non-issue at the moment. Most Canadians don't care one way or another. In 2002 polls showed that about 50% of the population wished the monarchy to continue and about 42% wished Canada to become a republic, however, 82% felt that debating the future of the monarchy in Canada was not an important issue.

Some say Canadians still tend to like the pomp and ceremony associated with the monarchy. A few months back there was a scandal in the Governor General's office, the Queen's representative in Canada, when it was discovered that under the present Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, the office's budge rose by 200% since she took office. Many Canadians called for the end of the office, yet there was no real calls to remove the Queen as head of state.

Is the monarchy relevant in Canada today? Probably not. God Save the Queen is only sung on extreemly formal occassions, the Queen has been stripped of most of her official duties, and the Governor General performs almost all of the duties of the Queen. However, the Queen is still well liked in Canada and her visits, which occur every 2 to 5 years, still draw large crowds. The biggest asset of the monarchy in Canada is that it draws attention to one of the few differences between us and the United States.

There is one massive hurdle Canada would have to overcome if it were to become a republic. The Queen's role, as Queen of Canada, and the office of the Governor General has been entrenched in our constitution since 1982. The only way we now can remove the Queen as head of state is if ALL levels of government are in agreement, meaning the Senate, Federal House of Commons and all the provincial governments. Plus they're would have to be a referendum, which are extreemly rare in Canada there has only been 4 I think in the whole history of Canada, where a clear majorty I think about 60% of the total population and 50% of the population of each provonce and territories would have to say yes to removing the Queen even before the provincial governments could begin to propose a bill to remove the monarchy. In Canada that level of agreement is nearly impossible, at least in this day and age.

The other problem is who would come up with a new system that ALL canadians could agree upon? And who would we make the head of state? Some old politician who has outserved his or her usefullness for anything else? One of the reasons our system works so well is that the Head of State and Head of Government are seperate.
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