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  #81  
Old 07-06-2005, 05:50 PM
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I don't know if it's a coincidence, but usually over half the countries at the top of the United Nations list of countries with the highest quality of life are constitutional monarchies.

I think a constitutional monarchy, as long as the monarch is scrupulously fair about his/her approach to politics, has the great advantage of keeping party politicians out of the position of head of state. It can be very tempting for a party politician to use the position of president to try and merge the good of the party with the good of the country and to suggest that people who don't support his party aren't patriots. It's especially the case in times of war or other national crisis. This has been going on for some years in the United States, and IMO it's unhealthy, not to say at times downright frightening.

If Tony Blair had reacted to the 9/11 attacks with the suggestion that he embodied the nation and that criticising the policies of the Labour party was tantamount to treason, he'd have been a national laughing stock - in much the same way that Margaret Thatcher became a laughing stock with her delusions of grandeur about being a national institution and the "we are a grandmother" announcement. The presence of a monarch who isn't an elected or appointed party politician does serve to remind people that politicians are not statesmen, they're representatives of their parties.

As far as the notion expressed earlier that the absence of a monarch has allowed the USA to avoid having an arrogant and elitist leader, I will simply confess to being utterly gobsmacked.
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  #82  
Old 07-06-2005, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
Does this forum has a tread on the Shah of Iran? I only read the point of view of the Shah late daughter so far and she always has been very defensive (and very persuading) about her father memory. But I would be very interested in reading another perspective...
Yeah, there are a few threads. I would do a search using the words Shah, Mossadq, and all the Shah's Men. The latter is the title of an excellent scholarly book that was published a couple of years ago. If you are interested in the topic I would highly suggest it.

Sean
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  #83  
Old 07-06-2005, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
Does this forum has a tread on the Shah of Iran? I only read the point of view of the Shah late daughter so far and she always has been very defensive (and very persuading) about her father memory. But I would be very interested in reading another perspective...
I understand the reason behind your point of view, and I have no doubt that the Shah's family members have a very different opinion of him, isnt that to be expected? But I wouldnt rely on them for the facts or for impartiality. Its all well and good that the former empress Farah goes around the world talking of democracy. But she doesnt talk about how autocratic her own husband's regime was. Infact Iran today would be freer and more open society had the Shah not be installed in the first place and had democracy been allowed to flourish.
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  #84  
Old 07-06-2005, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I don't know if it's a coincidence, but usually over half the countries at the top of the United Nations list of countries with the highest quality of life are constitutional monarchies.

I think a constitutional monarchy, as long as the monarch is scrupulously fair about his/her approach to politics, has the great advantage of keeping party politicians out of the position of head of state. It can be very tempting for a party politician to use the position of president to try and merge the good of the party with the good of the country and to suggest that people who don't support his party aren't patriots. It's especially the case in times of war or other national crisis. This has been going on for some years in the United States, and IMO it's unhealthy, not to say at times downright frightening.

If Tony Blair had reacted to the 9/11 attacks with the suggestion that he embodied the nation and that criticising the policies of the Labour party was tantamount to treason, he'd have been a national laughing stock - in much the same way that Margaret Thatcher became a laughing stock with her delusions of grandeur about being a national institution and the "we are a grandmother" announcement. The presence of a monarch who isn't an elected or appointed party politician does serve to remind people that politicians are not statesmen, they're representatives of their parties.

As far as the notion expressed earlier that the absence of a monarch has allowed the USA to avoid having an arrogant and elitist leader, I will simply confess to being utterly gobsmacked.
I must have missed that one.

A monarchy can be a good thing as long as there are checks and balances, and providing that's what the people want. It is when there aren't checks and balances that problems start to arise (as with any system). With respect to the UN quality of life list, rather than their status as constitutional monarchies, one must (also) take other factors into consideration such as that these are rich, industrialized Western European countries whose development wasn't stymied by colonialism, occupation, and suzernaity. Moreover, they set the terms of trade and dominate international instiutions, hold patents, and have been in exisitice as states far longer than much of the non-Western (a few decades) and East
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  #85  
Old 07-06-2005, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
I recall recently this questioncaused quite a stir in another Forum to a point the Adms, Netty and Toni
Oh dear, please don't mention those people, that place, or their members in this pleasent forum.


*Back on topic, I think having a monarchy is a great thing for a country that still has one. It's a tradition that brings pride and untiy to that nation and perhaps for some it may have a nationalistic pride as well.

It also brings in a lot of tourist money such as Britain; so why get rid of a good thing?:)
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  #86  
Old 07-06-2005, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athena
Oh dear, please don't mention those people, that place, or their members in this pleasent forum.


*Back on topic, I think having a monarchy is a great thing for a country that still has one. It's a tradition that brings pride and untiy to that nation and perhaps for some it may have a nationalistic pride as well.

It also brings in a lot of tourist money such as Britain; so why get rid of a good thing?:)
I like what you wrote,nicely said about the monarchy part.:)
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  #87  
Old 07-06-2005, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
I think a constitutional monarchy, as long as the monarch is scrupulously fair about his/her approach to politics, has the great advantage of keeping party politicians out of the position of head of state.
I totally agree. I see the political neutrality of European monarchs (Monaco and Liechtensein taken aside) as their best advantage. I think it's good for people to have State figures regularly keeping touch with them (official engagements) for reasons others than the next election. That neutrality create an healthy link between the Power (or its symbol) and the people. For that reason, the monarch I admire most is Juan Carlos of Spain who made a strong political statement at the beginning of his reign but then had the courage to let place to elected leaders and since then has been a neutral and charismatic figure.
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  #88  
Old 07-06-2005, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
I totally agree. I see the political neutrality of European monarchs (Monaco and Liechtensein taken aside) as their best advantage. I think it's good for people to have State figures regularly keeping touch with them (official engagements) for reasons others than the next election. That neutrality create an healthy link between the Power (or its symbol) and the people. For that reason, the monarch I admire most is Juan Carlos of Spain who made a strong political statement at the beginning of his reign but then had the courage to let place to elected leaders and since then has been a neutral and charismatic figure.
Totally agree, love what you wrote too.
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  #89  
Old 07-07-2005, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel
Thank you for your answers, great variety of ideas!

Toledo, I think you misinterpereted my thread. As you can see from the answers posted and from various practical examples, there are several way of beeing a monarch (Monaco's ruler has a completely different role than Spain's monarch for example). This thread is about how a monarchy should be ruled, and what monarch is the closest to a perfect ruler.
Of course, I opened the way to some discussions about the principle of monarchy itself as I thought it would enrich the conversation. I think I was right (see post #9).
If we are all adults, there is no reason for a war to begin :) .
Thanks for the explanation. :)
I have to admit that when I read the topic's title I jumped because of the negativity I read in that other Forum, mainly, people involving current politics and the always present undercover trolls nagging around the more serious members. When I saw the headline here I thought, oh no! not here!

My five cents of opinion, Monarchy and elected officials are not the same thing, never were and never will be. A Monarch represents tradition, the sense of common history embodied in one family that represents all the families in one country. Let me explain, you know when there is a pageant and a lady is selected for the Miss Universe or Miss World competition? Well, she is the pride of her nation, she is the face of her country, at least for one year. A Monarch, at a greater time scale than spans centuries, is just that: the embodiment of a country's common history. The should be always above politics because when they cross that line, like in the current crisis in Swaziland, the whole system collapses like a house of cards.
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  #90  
Old 07-07-2005, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Thanks for the explanation. :)
I have to admit that when I read the topic's title I jumped because of the negativity I read in that other Forum, mainly, people involving current politics and the always present undercover trolls nagging around the more serious members.
You not not hold them in your heart, do you?

Quote:
A Monarch represents tradition, the sense of common history embodied in one family that represents all the families in one country.
Do you think that because of this symbolic role, monarch should not be allowed failures (like divorces, affairs and other scandals) or do you think that they must be allowed to live the ups and downs of their lives just like other human beings?

BTW, thankx for participating and welcome on this peaceful tread
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  #91  
Old 07-07-2005, 02:31 PM
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Your Welcome. :)

If it's strickly symbolic, to a point they are not allowed to have human faults, then you have something similar to the Japanese Imperial Family and their strict code of conduct controlled by the Court. And you don't want that because a tragic casualty of that system has been the unfortunate Crown Princess Masako. But if they go in the opposite direction, a libertine life of aristocrartic bed hoping and double standards masked by snobbery, then you got most of the the children of poor Queen Elizabeth II and their Royal antics. For example, I did not know until recently that Camilla's Ex husband was Princess Anne's Ex boyfriend. And, there is the even more extreme scenario: Monaco's Grimaldis.

There has to be a middle point where the Heirs to any throne had to be made aware that they are held at higher standards, and if they don't like it they can step down. But the attitude of any Royal child depends, like in everyone's life, on parenting skills. Children are not supposed to raise themselves, nor live in an isolated bubble away from the real world. The same applies to the children of elected officials, they know their public conduct reflects on their parents.
And on divorce, every case has a different reason, but if they married for love they both should make an effort to get past their obstacles since there is so much at stake. And, if they can't, at least don't leave the marriage with hatred for the other person when there are kids in common. Parents should make the best effort to conduct themselves in a way it won't affect the kids.
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  #92  
Old 07-07-2005, 02:40 PM
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On trolls, no, I don't feed them. But sometimes they are tricky to spot. As in Darwin's Theory of Evolution, they do evolve to fit into an enviroment before they turn into pests. But plain indiferrence is the best way to scare them off, Trolls get tired when they can't find someone that responds their hit-and-run games.
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  #93  
Old 07-07-2005, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
Your Welcome. :)

If it's strickly symbolic, to a point they are not allowed to have human faults, then you have something similar to the Japanese Imperial Family and their strict code of conduct controlled by the Court. And you don't want that because a tragic casualty of that system has been the unfortunate Crown Princess Masako. But if they go in the opposite direction, a libertine life of aristocrartic bed hoping and double standards masked by snobbery, then you got most of the the children of poor Queen Elizabeth II and their Royal antics. For example, I did not know until recently that Camilla's Ex husband was Princess Anne's Ex boyfriend. And, there is the even more extreme scenario: Monaco's Grimaldis.

There has to be a middle point where the Heirs to any throne had to be made aware that they are held at higher standards, and if they don't like it they can step down. But the attitude of any Royal child depends, like in everyone's life, on parenting skills. Children are not supposed to raise themselves, nor live in an isolated bubble away from the real world. The same applies to the children of elected officials, they know their public conduct reflects on their parents.
And on divorce, every case has a different reason, but if they married for love they both should make an effort to get past their obstacles since there is so much at stake. And, if they can't, at least don't leave the marriage with hatred for the other person when there are kids in common. Parents should make the best effort to conduct themselves in a way it won't affect the kids.
I agree with most of your post. Particularly on the part about the divorce. i think for example the examplary way Alexandra and Joachim handle their divorce (no kiss and tell to the press, maximum protection of their kids) is very royal and does not cause troubles to the danish RF. As opposed to the disastrous war of the Whales who still affect BRF years after Diana's death.
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  #94  
Old 07-10-2005, 01:31 AM
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I live in a Constitutional Monarchy and can without doubt say that I have faith in the system. Before being asked by those in republics, whether I've lived anywhere else, I've also lived in the Federal Republic of Germany, and in East Africa. Ofcourse, the fact that I love my Queen does much to confirm my confidence in the system, but the nature of the system, of a Monarch as Soverign/Head of State, with a three-part government (Executive, legislative and judiciary), there is a strong check and balance system in practice.

The power exercisable by the Governor-Gereral in the absence of Her Majesty, has many-a-time been underestimated, as the republican Prime-Minister Edward Gough Whitlam found out on Remembrance Day 1975! So to say that our monarchy is irrelavent because of the accepted public opinion that it is, is no argument against what is a highly stable system of government. God save the Queen.
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  #95  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Schlesian
The power exercisable by the Governor-Gereral in the absence of Her Majesty, has many-a-time been underestimated, as the republican Prime-Minister Edward Gough Whitlam found out on Remembrance Day 1975!
May I ask you what happened?
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  #96  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:35 AM
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On Remembrance Day, 1975, Australia's most dramatic political event took place. The Governor General dismissed the Government, led by Prime Minister Gough Whitlam.

the full story can be found here:
http://www.topologymusic.com/davidson/whitlam.htm
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  #97  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Australian
On Remembrance Day, 1975, Australia's most dramatic political event took place. The Governor General dismissed the Government, led by Prime Minister Gough Whitlam.

the full story can be found here:
http://www.topologymusic.com/davidson/whitlam.htm
Thank you Australian
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  #98  
Old 07-10-2005, 08:42 AM
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No worries :)
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  #99  
Old 07-15-2005, 08:09 PM
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I´m very proud of living in a monarchy and think that the system of a constitutional monarchy such as sweden for instance works very good. It keeps us in contact with our thousand year history of monarchy and is still as I see it very democratic, where the king has no political power what so ever and is under constant contral of the parliment and people. Sweden is often put as an example of democracy and openness, even though our head of state is not elected by the people, so it doesn´t seem to affect our international image much either. But it´s important that the king has the people behind him, the day that a majority of the swedish people say it does not see any reason with the monarchy then it has to be abolished, but not as it is now when it is mostly the members of the swedish parliment that want´s to make Victoria unemployed and the royal family has a support by 70-80 % of the people.

Personally I hope that the bernadotte family will have their job for a long time to come.:)
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  #100  
Old 07-16-2005, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rop81
I´m very proud of living in a monarchy and think that the system of a constitutional monarchy such as sweden for instance works very good. It keeps us in contact with our thousand year history of monarchy and is still as I see it very democratic, where the king has no political power what so ever and is under constant contral of the parliment and people. Sweden is often put as an example of democracy and openness, even though our head of state is not elected by the people, so it doesn´t seem to affect our international image much either. But it´s important that the king has the people behind him, the day that a majority of the swedish people say it does not see any reason with the monarchy then it has to be abolished, but not as it is now when it is mostly the members of the swedish parliment that want´s to make Victoria unemployed and the royal family has a support by 70-80 % of the people.

Personally I hope that the bernadotte family will have their job for a long time to come.:)
Hear hear! I as a Swede couldn't agree more with you!

For me, who has some experience of the political life in our country, one of the most important things about the monarchy is that it's un-political. Sweden is otherwise a very politicized country, almost all of the state and government institutions and supported institutions are politically run, which makes politics a powerful business no matter what your interests are. So for me, I thank god that we have a monarchy and a Head of State that stands above all this political partisanship, a force who can unite us all as one.
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