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  #81  
Old 01-04-2013, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Here, in Brazil, the Imperial Family is still enforcing a House Law that dictates tha our Dynasts have to marry equally, to retain their succession right and titles (the Brazilian Monarchy was abolished by a coup d'etat in 1889). And this have the approval of the major part of the Monarchists in Brazil (we are 21% of the population).
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Brazilian monarchy founded by an imported prince from a european country?
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  #82  
Old 01-04-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well Princess Antonia has a pretty sizable fortune of her own given that she is a Guinness heiress so money was never an issue with that union..
the equality was obviously in the fortune then!!
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  #83  
Old 01-04-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Brazilian monarchy founded by an imported prince from a european country?
Emperor Pedro I was portuguese, but he comes to Brazil (a portuguese colony by that time) at the age of 9, and only left the country at the age of 33. He loved Brazil very much, and I believe he felt more Brazilian than Portuguese.

The next Emperor, his son, Pedro II, was born in Brazil, in 1825. So did his daughter and heir, Princess Isabel, and two of her three sons (Princes Pedro and Luiz). The next generation of Brazilian princes (Pedro's children) were born in France, because the Imperial Family was banned from Brazil, after the coup d'etat that proclaimed the Republic.

The Imperial Family was only able to return to Brazil in 1945, and eight of Prince Pedro Henrirque and Princess Maria Elizabeth's twelve children were born in Brazil. The other four (including the Head of the Imperial House, Prince Luiz, and his heir, Prince Bertrand) were born in France, but registred as Brazilian citizens, in the Brazilian Embassy in Paris.
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  #84  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:29 AM
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Many of these non-reigning families are in the position they are in since their parents or their marriage was equal. Georg of Prussia is heir since his parents were married equally unlike his fathers older brothers. Antonio of Brazil is heir due to his equal marriage followed by his son passing over older brothers. Maria of Russia is heir because there are no male dynasts left above her due to morganatic marriages. To change the rules now undercuts their legitimacy.

In families where one has allowed an unequal marriage for their child such as Karl of Austria, after Otto had forbidden it for other relatives just tears the family apart.

It is different in reigning monarchies since their legitimacy is based on state law and it is easier for them to change the rules by a change of law. It is also then the will of the state. For someone who was once a monarch such as Michael of Romania or Constantine of Greece their remains enough legitimacy to make changes too.

When what defines you are the rules, you can not change them.
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  #85  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:39 AM
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In the Brazilian case, the equal marriage is just a House Laws, so any change does not require a parliament act or something like that, the will of the Head of the Imperial Family is enough.
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  #86  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:34 AM
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I'm not comfortable with the phrase "House Laws". A Law is enacted by a ruling parliament or other governing body. Surely these situations are actually covered by "House Rules" or "House Standards"? Either of which could be changed at any time to move forward.
The LAWS covering the British succession are currently being changed because they are seen to discriminate. In the same way saying that a dynasts choice of spouse is unequal just because they do not belong to a former royal family is discriminatory.
The other situation is the one that exists with Princess Benedikte of Denmarks son. He is unable to marry the lady of his choice because he will lose the inheritance from his paternal grandfather who was obviously a Nazi and stipulated in his will that his grandson must marry a lady of Aryan birth to be able to inherit. Again is is wrong because it discriminates and seeks to deprive him of an hereditary inheritance.
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  #87  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:11 AM
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Without opening a can of worms, tell HSH to get a job and marry the lady of his choice. If he really has to ponder his options, he must have some serious reservations about marrying girlfriend.
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  #88  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
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I really feel all these laws and stuff are totally silly. It partly shows the mentality of these people (or their ancestors) to change with changing times, and thats how they perished, though there are other reasons. On the other hand, they may be 'entitled' to these laws, as they are no longer 'serving' the public, and hence need not feel responsible and close to them. But then they contunue to live in their own archaic, ancient, dinosaur world..Let them be..
And I hope they are sane and mentally sound enough to realise that they are never going to 'reign' again and get bows/curtsies from 'peasants', whom they prohibit their sons from marrying to..
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  #89  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:09 PM
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NotHRH, just FYI, his job IS running the estate and it is a large one. Prince Richard (said prince's father) stated one time that running the whole farm, estate and forest was actually not a "hobby-job" but a whole time job. That was what he was trained to do. So does have a job.

Again hopefully, the can of worms stays closed.
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  #90  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
...There is no mention that Princess Antonia's marriage to Charles Wellessly was considered unequal. Obviously the Wellesley fortune eased that path.
You've left out the fact that Charles Wellesley, Marquess of Douro, is the eldest son and heir of the 8th Duke of Wellington. I also suspect you may be confusing the "Wellesley fortune" with that of the Duke of Westminster, who is stupendously wealthy.

Quote:
wasn't the Brazilian monarchy founded by an imported prince from a european country?
Not an "imported prince" as most would understand the term in the context of Sweden and Norway. Since at least 1645 the heir to the crown of Portugal bore the title Prince (or Princess) of Brazil. In 1808 the Portuguese Royal Family arrived in Rio after fleeing Napoleon's armies; in 1821 King Joao VI returned to Portugal leaving Prince Pedro, his eldest surviving son and heir, in Brazil. Pedro subsequently became the first Emperor of Brazil and the Portuguese crown later passed to Pedro's brother.

Quote:
He is unable to marry the lady of his choice...
Hereditary Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg could marry his long-term girlfriend tomorrow if he wanted to. The potential loss of his inheritance may be the reason for his current unmarried state but there is no legal impediment to him marrying whoever he chooses.
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  #91  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:00 PM
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Not to mention, among other numerous titles and styles, the 8th Duke is (and consequently, Marquise of Douro is Heir Apparent of) the title "Prince of Waterloo".
While it's a title of nobility (albeit one of the highest-ranking ones in the Dutch nobility) and not royalty, I doubt anyone ever argues Antonia's marriage to Charles Wellesley was anything but equal.
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  #92  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:33 PM
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It's kind of a double edged sword and a real conundrum.

1: Commoner women do have 'fresh blood,' but isn't that view just as snobby as someone who would prefer that a princess/Consort be blue-blooded? A lot of these 'fresh blooded' women can end up being as snooty and entitled as a blue blooded stereotypically is.

2: A lot of these women are the party types that had all the time in the world to cater to their princes and spend time with them, not at all work at a career that would require the prince make an effort to spend time with them. I don't see why on earth princes aren't making an effort to spend time with women who come from business backgrounds that have women used to keeping a tight/demanding schedule that would have them slip into the life a lot more easily and know how to not abuse the perks.

3: I don't mind a commoner, but I am biased towards aristocrats (hence my user name) mainly because a lot of aristocrats don't need their reputations rehabilitated. GD Stephanie didn't require a massive PR campaign to get her accepted by the Luxembourg people and didn't require a whitewash of her past and image. She is educated and talented and isn't at this point emptying Chanel's boutiques. There were no problems in that area and it's not like she had any other complications. She only had to slip into her wedding dress and she was then off to church. No obstacles.

4: Snakey of Sweden. CP Mette-Marit. These are women that the princes foisted on the public, pushing the RF and public to accept them whether they like it or not. Sofia/Snakey might end up a princess of Sweden whether the Swedes like it or not and realistically I do not think it's right. There are plenty of decent commoners who don't have pasts that need PR and such on their side. Can't these princes find nice women? At least Arab royals, for all their insanity, don't marry tarts and make the public accept them. They have that decency. There are millions of nice girls if only these princes would go out and find them. Decent families don't want their daughters inspected on some catwalk like stud horses or girls in a brothel.
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  #93  
Old 01-06-2013, 06:42 PM
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NotHRH, just FYI, his job IS running the estate and it is a large one. Prince Richard (said prince's father) stated one time that running the whole farm, estate and forest was actually not a "hobby-job" but a whole time job. That was what he was trained to do. So does have a job.

Again hopefully, the can of worms stays closed.
If HSH marries Carinna Axelssen, he will not have an estate to run. He needs to get a job or he may lose his girlfriend. If she is smart and realized he has to weigh his options and still has not yet married, she would be wise to make him decide or leave him - or maybe she is scared his decision will not include her? Money does make the world go 'round.
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  #94  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:58 PM
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If HSH marries Carinna Axelssen, he will not have an estate to run. He needs to get a job or he may lose his girlfriend. If she is smart and realized he has to weigh his options and still has not yet married, she would be wise to make him decide or leave him - or maybe she is scared his decision will not include her? Money does make the world go 'round.
That may be. He might feel he owes his family his involvement. I would think that they would try and break a will, written by a Nazi, during their tenure. I, believe, his grandfather died in 1944. I don't, believe, any of us know the dynamics, that have lead to this decision. How did Princess Benedikte, marry the son of an obvious Nazi?
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  #95  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:15 PM
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That may be. He might feel he owes his family his involvement. I would think that they would try and break a will, written by a Nazi, during their tenure. I, believe, his grandfather died in 1944. I don't, believe, any of us know the dynamics, that have lead to this decision. How did Princess Benedikte, marry the son of an obvious Nazi?
I agree, I wonder why HRH would marry the son of an obvious Nazi. HSH Prince Richard's father did pass away in 1944, and made these stipulations for his hopeful future grandson only, not his son. Still why does HSH Prince Gustav want the estate and fortune from someone who was a Nazi during the height of WWII?
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  #96  
Old 01-06-2013, 11:18 PM
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Nazi past or not, it's his grandfather and his family estate. I know nothing about this situation, but it sounds a lot like the one we had in Sweden with Prince Bertil and Lilian Craig. Bertil's father, King Gustav VI Adolf, wouldn't let him get married to a common woman, who also was a divorcée, so they were together for thirty years before they finally could get married, which only happened after his nephew, King Carl XVI Gustaf, had gotten married himself to Silvia Sommerlath. Lilian obviously accepted the situation, as unfair as it might seem these days, and stayed with Bertil anyway. And I guess it's the same thing with Carinna Axelssen. She obviously knows the situation and has accepted it.
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  #97  
Old 01-07-2013, 03:05 AM
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I agree, I wonder why HRH would marry the son of an obvious Nazi. HSH Prince Richard's father did pass away in 1944, and made these stipulations for his hopeful future grandson only, not his son. Still why does HSH Prince Gustav want the estate and fortune from someone who was a Nazi during the height of WWII?
Because it wasn't his Grandfathers estate, it is his families estate. It has been in the family for 700 years. His grandfather was just one in a very long line of men responsibale for the land, forests, castles and people who work or live on the estate.It is a full time job, like running a business. As for Carina, perhaps she doesn't need a marriage ceromony or a certificate to be secure in his love for her.
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  #98  
Old 01-07-2013, 04:29 AM
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I agree, I wonder why HRH would marry the son of an obvious Nazi. HSH Prince Richard's father did pass away in 1944, and made these stipulations for his hopeful future grandson only, not his son. ...

I'm glad to say, that we are lucky enough to live in societies who do not hold children responsible for the sins of their fathers!

I don't know if his grandfather was really a Nazi or not - stipulating to marry an 'arian' woman doesn't make him a Nazi - this concept of a white race being somewhat 'better' than others existed in lots of people heads (and still does) Thanks to the Nazis it became so discredited (thank god for that) that today none is fool enough to admit it.
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