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  #21  
Old 06-26-2006, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna
Our Carl Gustaf and Silvia are a good example of a succesful marriage between a royal and a commoner. Doesn't Harald and Sonja of Norway fall into that cathegory too? I also think all crown princesses like Mette-Marit, Mary, Maxima, Mathilde and Letizia will become good queens one day. Even Camilla will probably be as good as Brittish queen as Diana could have been.
Marrying commoners brings up a whole new perspective to the world of Royals. Royal families don't work in offices, like many of us, dealing with the mood swings of fellow workers. They don't take the bus or (most of them) drive nor go to stores unnoticed. They live from birth to death in a world surrounded by people constantly supervising their every move, what they say and who they meet and for how long. So, commoners like the new line of Crown Princesess we all comment about, open a window to their spouses and their offsping of what is the real world out there. What is to go to work, shop and prepare your own food, make a party for your close friends etc.

These commoner spouses are the best thing to happen to Royalty since the guillotine was dismantled. Not to mention of the much needed DNA contribution into these blue bloods, if they kept interbreeding some of them could grow tails or fins.
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  #22  
Old 06-26-2006, 10:51 PM
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These commoner spouses are the best thing to happen to Royalty since the guillotine was dismantled.
It also brings in a fresh batch of genes....that way your not marrying your nieces sisters husbands brothers 1st cousin's daughter .
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2006, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer
It also brings in a fresh batch of genes....that way your not marrying your nieces sisters husbands brothers 1st cousin's daughter .
One of my books on Royal gossip claims the most dangerously inbreed royal family is the Portuguese in the 18th and 19th century. If I recall they had an uncle marrying his niece. Just the thought of it revolts my stomach. Too weird. And I believe the current pretender, Prince Duarte is married to a cousin 20 years younger and he made a comment he would like one of his small kids to marry our little Princess Leonor.
Thanks but no, thanks! I'm crossing my fingers so Leonor marries either a football (soccer) player or a Toreador. The Toreadors have the best DNA in Spain since they all marry the most beautiful women found of the model catwalks.
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2006, 11:06 PM
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I think its romantic whenever a royal marries someone of non-royal blood. Look at Princess Mary for instance, what a real-life fairy-tale! But aside from fairy-tales, royals are REAL people. How would you like it if you were restricted to marrying within a selected group? Imagine the possibilites you'd have to give up!
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  #25  
Old 06-26-2006, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by auntie
Also, here is a thought: I have noticed that the nobilty and aristocraticy do tend to marry in the upper class, more than most of the Crown Princes or any royal princesses of this generation have!
You know, that's true! There seems to be more intermarrying in the aristocracy (or at least peer marrying) than in the royal families. With the exception of Prince Charles, the crown princes really went right down to the middle class or the professional class to find wives. Maybe the members of the aristocracy are aware of their families' prestige, but the royal families having nothing to prove so they marry whomever takes their fancy!
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  #26  
Old 06-27-2006, 12:23 AM
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however, there are princes/princesses who marry within their own class. like princess astrid of belgium & archduke lorenz. and the hereditary prince of liechetestein & sophie, duchess of bavaria...
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  #27  
Old 06-27-2006, 12:32 AM
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I would love for another Astrid and Leopold story to happen again (minus the tragic ending :(). They truly loved each other and it was the perfect royal match. Princess of Sweden falls in love with the Prince of Belgium. :) Some modern day version of this would be great, plus this forum would be going nuts!
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2006, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by foiegrass
however, there are princes/princesses who marry within their own class. like princess astrid of belgium & archduke lorenz. and the hereditary prince of liechetestein & sophie, duchess of bavaria...
That's true, I was trying to think of some but the only one I could come up with was Princess Caroline of Monaco and Prince Ernst of Hanover, who kind of lend a new meaning to marrying within your own class.
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2006, 02:14 AM
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Russian,

Your claims about dynastic lines are quite unfounded and unresearched. Take, for example, the marriage of Empress Maria-Theresa of Austria to Francis of Lorraine, thus founding the Hapsburg-Lorraines. Besides, if it's truly legitimacy that you're worried about, you should know that Sweden's Bernadottes have long challenged the norm as adopted heirs to the Swedish throne--they come from Napoleonic military stock from the south of France.

The idea of morganatic marriages essentially no longer exists. And, I might add, although these women who marry the European heirs in question are technically common, their backgrounds and families are hardly commonplace. Their circumstances in today's world might be equated to that of nobility several centuries ago. Keep in mind, as well, that today's world does not have as large a system of noblesse--so families that would have been ennobled in the past are simply wealthy today.

I must also say that I'm not entirely sure you have a strong belief in the system, if you truly doubt the abilities of Scandinavian princes and princesses to rule their countries with "duty". I see no reason why Victoria should not rule as well in Sweden as Victoria did in Britain. Besides, the House of Hannover dealt with a surname switch when it became Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, why should Bernadotte fret?

My opinion on this matter is that a generation of new blood is due for the reigning houses of Europe, and while they should take care not to dilude the mystique of royalty, there is also incredible danger in living in the past. Any institution of monarchy that makes its existence seem outdated to its subjects puts itself in serious jeopardy. Also, with the tangle of international royal marriages in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, royal houses are genetically in danger without a more diverse gene pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
That's true, I was trying to think of some but the only one I could come up with was Princess Caroline of Monaco and Prince Ernst of Hanover, who kind of lend a new meaning to marrying within your own class.
The problem with the very idea of morganatic marriage, though, is that almost anyone can be declared unfit. Many in Europe would disagree with you that Princess Caroline is fit to marry a Royal Highness like Prince Ernst August (who I must say has his own troubles). You see, for centuries the Grimaldi dynasty has been a noble outcast, due to the way in which they gained power, and in many minds, the princely family of Monaco is the (forgive me) trash of European royalty. They certainly would not rank high enough to marry a prince of Hannover--one of the Kurfuersts. And there is hardly need to mention the would-be morganatic marriage of Caroline's own parents, her father a prince and her mother an American (strike one) and an ACTRESS (likened to a prostitute)! It is for these silly prejudices that I reject the system of morganatic marriage (or at least the existence of the word). Grace Kelly would have ranked among the nobility of Philadelphia were there an instituted system of nobility in the United States. So morganatics clearly misses the mark.
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  #30  
Old 06-27-2006, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
You know, that's true! There seems to be more intermarrying in the aristocracy (or at least peer marrying) than in the royal families. With the exception of Prince Charles, the crown princes really went right down to the middle class or the professional class to find wives. Maybe the members of the aristocracy are aware of their families' prestige, but the royal families having nothing to prove so they marry whomever takes their fancy!
But wasn't Crown princess Mathilde of Belgium an aristocrat? She will be the first queen of the Belgians, who was born in Belgium. All previous queens were taken from other countries to not offend either the dutch half or the french half of the belgians. Our Astrid of Sweden is a good example of this. And were Fabiola and Paola really princesses? One was Italian, and one was Spanish, but were their princesses or just aristocracy?
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  #31  
Old 06-27-2006, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Furienna
But wasn't Crown princess Mathilde of Belgium an aristocrat?
Yes, Mathilde is absolutely an exception to the trend of royalty marrying into the middle and professional classes. And I'm sure there are a few others as well, thank goodness.
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  #32  
Old 06-27-2006, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna
But wasn't Crown princess Mathilde of Belgium an aristocrat? She will be the first queen of the Belgians, who was born in Belgium. All previous queens were taken from other countries to not offend either the dutch half or the french half of the belgians. Our Astrid of Sweden is a good example of this. And were Fabiola and Paola really princesses? One was Italian, and one was Spanish, but were their princesses or just aristocracy?
Before marriage:
Queen Paola was Princess Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria
(She is the youngest daughter of Prince Don Fulco Ruffo di Calabria, 6th Duke of Guardia Lombarda (1884-1946), and his wife, the former Countess Luisa Gazelli di Rossana e di Sebastiano)

Queen Fabiola was Dońa Fabiola Fernanda María de las Victorias Antonia Adelaida de Mora y Aragón
(She was born as third daughter of Don Gonzalo Mora Fernández Riera del Olmo, Marquis of Casa Riera, Count of Mora (1887-1957), and his wife, Dońa Blanca de Aragon y Carrillo de Albornoz Barroeta-Aldamar y Elio (1892-1981).)

(source: wikipedia)
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  #33  
Old 06-27-2006, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
Yes, Mathilde is absolutely an exception to the trend of royalty marrying into the middle and professional classes. And I'm sure there are a few others as well, thank goodness.
Mette-Marit sure was a working class girl, but I'm not sure about Mary's and Maxima's backgrounds. And both queen Silvia and queen Sonja came from well-to-do families, I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
Before marriage:
Queen Paola was Princess Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria
(She is the youngest daughter of Prince Don Fulco Ruffo di Calabria, 6th Duke of Guardia Lombarda (1884-1946), and his wife, the former Countess Luisa Gazelli di Rossana e di Sebastiano)

Queen Fabiola was Dońa Fabiola Fernanda María de las Victorias Antonia Adelaida de Mora y Aragón
(She was born as third daughter of Don Gonzalo Mora Fernández Riera del Olmo, Marquis of Casa Riera, Count of Mora (1887-1957), and his wife, Dońa Blanca de Aragon y Carrillo de Albornoz Barroeta-Aldamar y Elio (1892-1981).)

(source: wikipedia)
So let's see... Paola was the Italian one and Fabiola was the Spanish one... It seems like Paola was born a princess, while Fabiola was born "only" as nobility.
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  #34  
Old 06-27-2006, 04:06 PM
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Royals marrying other royals doesn't seem relevant any more. In the past when monarchs were absolute rulers it was necessary to forge alliances with other kingdoms and have a clear separation between the monarch and subjects. Nowadays, royal families are more ceremonial, weilding very little true power so it just isn't as important.
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  #35  
Old 06-27-2006, 04:53 PM
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More and more monarchies have crown princes marrying commoners. Even very traditional/conservative non-european royal houses. There are such examples like Japan, where crown prince married a commoner a generation ago, and now P Naruhito married "regular" woman Masako. Jordan also has second generation of kings married to common women. Another example is a current Crown Prince of Thailand or king of Marocco married to commoner Salma. So royalty marrying commoners has become international trend.
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  #36  
Old 06-27-2006, 05:38 PM
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I not approve such marriages.
But if Royal Houses are found jeopardized because of genetic close related relations, but for help him it is necessary infusion fresh and new blood, that prince and princess it is necessary to find the parties from some ancient aristocratic family.
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  #37  
Old 06-27-2006, 06:00 PM
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I not approve such marriages.
But if Royal Houses are found jeopardized because of genetic close related relations, but for help him it is necessary infusion fresh and new blood, that prince and princess it is necessary to find the parties from some ancient aristocratic family.
But those ancient aristocratic families have "deluted" blood as well. Some have married "commoners"/below their station. So no noble line is totally "Pure" (sidenote I feel like I'm talking about the Harry Potter books! ). Sure there is a possiblity that they didn't marry below their station in the 1700s & 1800s but this past century has changed all that.
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  #38  
Old 06-30-2006, 03:25 AM
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I did not want see the girl of the modest origin in russian Imperial throne.
If on street to take some девочку, teach her good manner, give her good formation, teach her be dressed and behave in aristocratic light, that is got just Letizia Ortiz or some cinderella.
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  #39  
Old 06-30-2006, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Chota
My opinion on this matter is that a generation of new blood is due for the reigning houses of Europe, and while they should take care not to dilude the mystique of royalty, there is also incredible danger in living in the past. Any institution of monarchy that makes its existence seem outdated to its subjects puts itself in serious jeopardy. Also, with the tangle of international royal marriages in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, royal houses are genetically in danger without a more diverse gene pool.
That's exactly the point, I have to agree.

The concept of monarchy was once a form to stabilize a society that was constantly endangered by all kinds of things: plagues, famine, war with neighbors, political intrigue etc. To survive, people simply needed a concept that granted them security. Monarchy and a strict class system was an answer to that need. Then came the age of discovery and people not only discovered that the earth has far more to offer than previously known, the found the means to stabilize their society without the need for such a strict class system as they had before: discoveries in techniques and wisdom allowed for new ways to produce goods and trade helped to exchange knowledge. But with the upcoming self-esteem of the trading and producing class, a new (additional) upper class could be established which had the means and the intellect to search for political acceptance. Now it was no longer believed that a king had a god-given right to rule (the French revolution took care of that).

Today, I guess most people in the modern democracy not only accept but believe that all men are born equal and all human being should have a right to education and to a chance to better themselves in terms of their situation. But still there are monarchies? How could they survive?

I guess because they still symbolize a stability, they represent a glorious past and are the focus of wishes for a equally good present and future. Plus the members of the Royal families of today are hard-working people who need not use intrigues to secure their place on top of the society but have a right to be there and can use their time to help their people instead of taking part in petty affairs. Thus they offer a real advantage.

Here in Germany, most of the time men are appointed President of the Federal Republic who have proven that they have been of great advantage to our society but they are not prominent politiciens. It's good that way, it's the closest we can get to royality, these men represent a kind of inner nobility, they are part of our elite of highly educated men with a proven social conscience. Men like that don't go too active into politics.

So it's this role-model that is important today: to have a person who is above the political parties and who is there for the people, a symbol for the stability and the goodness of our society. The heads of states wield powers that have nothing to do with day-to-day politics, they are here to be the conscience of the state.

So, back to Royalty - why should these people or their children necessarily marry people who have to offer not only all the things required of a Royal (like compassion, discipline, love of their country) but have the bloodlines as well? Today, with the changed view of the position and meaning of a Royal family, having been brought up on top of the old caste system appears (at least to me) as a disadvantage as today's Royals are not longer what they used to be.

Mette-Marit for example has shown that even though she made the wrong decisions in the past she was able to make a thoughtful and compassionate man like Haakon fall in love with her and to defend her. Isn't that something Norwegians should be proud of? Their future king has shown that he is a man who looks beyond the shell into the core of a woman and found her suitable for the position he had to offer. Mette-Marit meanwhile proved that he was right in his opinion: she is a good mother, a compassionate princess and a good symbol for modern Norway, where you have a second chance at leading a worthy life if you only try to make it better this time.

I don't buy the concept of Royals being better people than most of us are because they are the descendents of people who used their power to keep other human beings poor and politically dependant. I think that most Royals who are really close to the throne are better people than most because they have learned from early on that the wellfare of others, of their people, counts more than their personal comfort. That's a hard lesson to learn and most of us wouldn't want to bear this burden. So I wish for them to meet the right partner who is willing to take this burden on and to share it with love and laughter, even if this partner is not descended from a Royal or noble family. There is a nobility inside people that count more than the outer nobility of ancestors, IMHO.

Sometimes I wonder what gives us human beings the right to try to decide what others should do or shouldn't do in such autocratic terms. As we are not to live with the "suitable aristocratic spouse" but only watch the Royal's life from afar (and sometimes with the help of paparazzi who really intrude into the life of these people), we should be very careful in what we ask of Royals.

I think it's okay if we (as representatives of "the people") say what we want from them professionally and in terms of conduct but to tell them whom to marry is reaching beyond the line that is drawn by the respect of the free will of any other human, IMHO.
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  #40  
Old 06-30-2006, 05:51 AM
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People shouldn't tell others whom to marry, that is everyone's right to decide. The right that people may have is to decide if they want a monarchy in their countries, there are countries that love their royal families and they dont see any problem in mixed marriages at all, but we need to recognize that in some countries, where the monarchy is becoming less and less wanted, they take any excuse to evaluate it as irrelevant and unnecessary, one of the thing they use is the common practice (nowdays) of princes and princess getting marriage with commoners.
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