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  #361  
Old 10-13-2016, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I think they are as heroic as the men and women who fought and died the Civil War to guarantee that the Bill of Rights declaration that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL was not contradicted by the monstrous system of chattel slavery.
With this in mind, right now it seems that there is another war going on between the red and the blue and that, in and of itself, shows a very divisive state where a decision has to be made between one or the other and one side wins and the other side doesn't. All Americans are created equal so to me, it should figure that the head of state for the US should reflect all of the people and not the red people or the blue people and declare victory over them.

Right now, if we really look at it, our presidential race is 95% a popularity contest and the winner with the least skeletons in their closet will win for the red people or the blue people. The losing candidate denotes that they and their backers are the "losers" in the game and the color of the winner's party gives victory in how the executive branch of the government will be run for the next four years.

The same could be done for a presidential campaign with leaving out the red and the blue parties and the other other colored parties in between and just have people vote for whom they like the best to represent all of them for a 4 year period as an apolitical head of state that would function much as the Queen does in the UK. There really wouldn't be that much different except that there'd be no big party PACs that draw in millions upon millions of campaign funds, no electoral college of delegates from the different parties and the vote would be returned to where it solely belongs. To the people.

The executive branch of the US government is something that really needs looked into and changed or abolished. Power definitely does corrupt and its my opinion that our head of state needs to be above that and represent all Americans regardless of political leanings or governmental opinions.

Edit: In short, lets eliminate the donkeys and the elephants and their delegates and their conventions and machinations in campaigns and just let the American people decide who they want to represent them as an apolitical head of state.
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  #362  
Old 10-13-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Sorry to disagree again, but France, which was an absolute monarchy contrary to England, actually aided and supported the American revolution, and so did Spain (another absolute monarchy at the time). In fact, if it were not for French intervention, the American colonists would never have forced Britain to accept US independence.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile the myth that the American Revolution was about "men being created equal" with the reality of African slavery and native American genocide. In fact, blacks and native Americans probably fared much better in neighboring Canada under the protection of the British crown than in the American republic.
You misunderstand me. I never denied that France aided and abetted the American colonists. My point was that American blood was shed to free America from being a British colony under a king(George III). Period.

I have gone over my post with a fine tooth comb and can't understand why you think I even implied that the American Revolution had anything to do with slavery? I was referring to the Civil War, the war that was fought(in part) to preserve the integrity of this country as ONE nation governed by the people and for the people, and toward the end to abolish the system of chattel slavery in a country that was supposed to have been founded on egalitarian ideology.

I have not denied that slaves fleeing from the US sought protection in Canada and were probably treated much better than in their homeland. God Bless Canada for that.

During that same Civil War, Napoleon III of France gave his tacit support to emissaries of the Confederacy and so did a grand majority of monarchists(including the ultra reactionary Pope Pius IX) and aristocrats in the rest of Europe, who were hoping to see the end of democracy in America. That is exactly would have been the result of the breakup of this country via secession and it's exactly why Lincoln and Seward were determined to prosecute that war to the end.

Completely baffled by your post.
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  #363  
Old 10-13-2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
In fact CSENYC, I think the men, women and children who faced police dogs and fire hoses in the Deep South during the Civil Rights movement are as much American heroes as soldiers who lost their lives in 1776 to make the American colonies a free and democratic Republic. I think they are as heroic as the men and women who fought and died the Civil War to guarantee that the Bill of Rights declaration that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL was not contradicted by the monstrous system of chattel slavery.

Meanwhile the monarchists of Europe during that conflict were rooting for America to implode in order to confirm their conviction that government of the people and by the people could not work.

I wonder what the people who fought and died in those wars would have to say about your apparent belief that all their blood was spilled in vain, and that kings and queens are best after all?

I don't think are system is perfect, very far from it. I do think there is always room for change.

Just not the kind you and yours are advocating.
Again, what a nasty, nasty viewpoint.

People you like should be allowed to stay in the US.

People who you don't agree with should shut up or leave.

That's your clear viewpoint. It's extremely nasty.
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  #364  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:02 PM
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Lets remember too folks that there was a time when there were those that stood up for what they believed in and were persecuted and executed for heresy because they believed the world was round and revolved around the sun. The accepted belief was, at the time, that the world actually was flat.

Times change, nations change and what was right and good and believed to be true back then, is no longer valid and the Earth adapted to it.

What may have worked wonders 200,100 and maybe even 50 years ago may not work as well today. Change and adaptation is a good thing.
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  #365  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
Again, what a nasty, nasty viewpoint.

People you like should be allowed to stay in the US.

People who you don't agree with should shut up or leave.

That's your clear viewpoint. It's extremely nasty.
Because I think American citizens who long to live under a monarchy should explore their options?

I think an even "nastier viewpoint" is the one that implies Americans who fought and died for democracy were wasting their time, but you are entitled to think whatever you please.

That's how we do it in the USA.
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  #366  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Because I think American citizens who long to live under a monarchy should explore their options?

I think an even "nastier viewpoint" is the one that implies Americans who fought and died for democracy were wasting their time, but you are entitled to think whatever you please.

That's how we do it in the USA.
Can you read?

Where did I ever say that I opposed democracy?

Your view-- "love it as-is or leave it" is Stalinist.

Read my post to see what I called for--rethinking the US's elected, partisan head of state--and then respond. With your nasty posts, you clearly haven't done that.

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, etc. all have apolitical heads of state, separate from heads of government, and they are all much more democratic than the US is (as per Freedom House).
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  #367  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:19 PM
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You know CSENYC, debate and differences of opinion about subjects such as this one is fun and one of the reasons I like visiting this Board.

However you are dancing dangerously close to personal insult which is not fun at all, and which I am not going to either tolerate or engage in with you.

So, I am asking you as politely as possible to cease and desist going forward.

And now that we've gotten that out of the way?

[I could deal a lot better with a jerk as a head of state if the head of state was born into the position]
QUOTE

Your words, no?

FYI...citizens who did not love Stalinist Russia were not usually free to leave. So no..my suggestion is not quite "Stalinist".
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  #368  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:43 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something here but in the past few posts I have seen one person describe "Americans that want to live under a monarchy" and then "Countries that have an apolitical head of state".

It gets confusing here. Why isn't it possible to have a republic like the US already has and instead of installing a full blown, hereditary monarchy such as the UK has, just change the executive branch of the United States government and the Office of the President of the United States to be an apolitical position elected of the people, for the people and by the people every four years?

Then, the President of the United States would represent each and every American period. To me, that would be much better and also enhance what the Stars and Stripes stand for.
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
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  #369  
Old 10-13-2016, 03:50 PM
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Probably because an overhaul of the Executive branch of government such as the one you describe would need to be preceded by an overhaul of the entire Constitution and the Electoral College that has decided how the the president is elected since the Republic was founded Osipi.

I am not necessarily against that, but practically speaking it will not happen, at least not in our lifetime.
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  #370  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:12 PM
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Who knows? Perhaps things will be so deteriorated after this presidential election cycle and we will witness all kinds of an aftermath regardless of who is actually elected into office that in order to either sink or swim, the powers that be may actually come to realize its time to revisit things and figure out how to solve problems.

Then again, I'm not going to hold my breath on that. Things have been in need of serious fixing for a very long time and the governmental departments hem and haw and go on vacations and nothing ever really gets done.

We just may have to live with things that are broken and get used to duct tape repairs now and then.
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
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  #371  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:24 PM
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I don't think the United States should be a hereditary monarchy or become a Commonwealth realm like Canada, but I personally would like to see it become a federal parliamentary republic like Germany. I agree with Moonmaiden though: the prospect of that ever happening is close to zero, first because the current system of government has been around for more than 200 years and, second, because the American people is literally brainwashed since an early age into believing the US presidential system is the best system of government in the world . There would never be enough support in the country then for a major constitutional revision, and no major political party or no major political leader are calling for it.
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  #372  
Old 10-13-2016, 04:51 PM
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Moonmaiden23, your posts and your words are extremely nasty and condescending. You also don't seem to grasp what the posts that you respond to are saying.

You may also want to explore what a "head of state" is. That's what I'm talking about, not a "head of government." You seem to have no understanding of the differences between the two.

I'm ignoring you from now on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Maybe I'm missing something here but in the past few posts I have seen one person describe "Americans that want to live under a monarchy" and then "Countries that have an apolitical head of state".

It gets confusing here. Why isn't it possible to have a republic like the US already has and instead of installing a full blown, hereditary monarchy such as the UK has, just change the executive branch of the United States government and the Office of the President of the United States to be an apolitical position elected of the people, for the people and by the people every four years?

Then, the President of the United States would represent each and every American period. To me, that would be much better and also enhance what the Stars and Stripes stand for.
I agree with you. May I add, though, that even when elected offices are nonpartisan, usually it's known who the Republican and who the Democrat are, and the parties support different "nonpartisan" candidates by giving out lists of recommended candidates. So I don't think that having an officially nonpartisan head of state would truly be nonpartisan if the office is elected by popular vote. Plus getting a consensus candidate would take getting much more than a majority of votes, and that's not really feasible in a nationwide election; it would take multiple votes to get to a near-unanimous consensus.

Perhaps doing it how Germany does: having the legislature elect the nonpartisan head of state, and requiring votes from, say, 75% of the legislators would work; that way no overtly partisan D or R could ever get enough votes. Then again, do we want Congress having one more thing to mess up?

Thus a nonpartisan monarch is a good way to ensure that the head of state is apolitical.
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  #373  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:03 PM
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I am relieved to hear that you have decided to ignore me CSENYC, especially since you don't seem to have a clear idea of what it means to disagree with someone without insulting them and have decidedly skewed ideas about what it means to be truly "nasty".

Your decision to ignore me will save me the trouble of having to report you to the Mods, for which I am grateful.
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  #374  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:04 PM
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(shaking her head madly as she walks away) What a fine mess we've gotten ourselves into eh?

So many possible ways to fix what is wrong yet so many roadblocks to getting it all done and none of them are so good that everyone would agree with them.
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
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  #375  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:12 PM
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I think the discord of the election cycle has rubbed off and is affecting some of us, including myself!
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  #376  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:16 PM
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You guys sound like candidate-US-presidents in debate

The rest of the world looking on bothered bewildered confused
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  #377  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:21 PM
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Told ya..it's catching!
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  #378  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post


I think the discord of the election cycle has rubbed off and is affecting some of us, including myself!
Maybe so (and I do have to admit the recent campaigns are driving me batty) but at least we're honest about it all and can say things like OOPS and sorry and clean up our words and continue on. Just like we learned to do in kindergarten. Then again, we're not politicians.
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
― John Lennon
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  #379  
Old 10-13-2016, 06:48 PM
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Lets now move on from specifically discussing the US election and back to discussing the topic of Monarchy V Republic. A reminder also for members to treat each other respectfully even when points of view differ, which will go far in avoiding the discussion being de-railed with personal arguments. Thanks you.
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  #380  
Old 10-13-2016, 08:45 PM
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It doesn't cost more to run our Republic, as it does to run a monarchy. Remember the vast sums of money that many sovereigns have accumulated have been at the expense of their subjects. Until the year of the fire at Windsor Castle the BRF paid no taxes. And their vast sums of wealth came from their ancestors taking what they will from those who could least defend themselves. Even now then sovereign to sovereign passing of jewels and property goes tax free. And you gets what you gets. Elizabeth is a fine woman and has taken her responsibility very seriously. Remember, she ascended when some still thought that she was anointed by God. Now, getting past that, we have had good presidents and bad. We are now involved with a very strange set of circumstances. We have a mentally unstable candidate running from our Conservative style party. many in his party are dismayed. Some outwardly disgusted, but here it is. I, believe, we will survive his lunacy and become better. Oh, and whoever mentioned it is cheaper to keep a monarchy, knows nothing about cost. And those3 "lavish vacations" are paid for by the president taking them. Not by taxpayers. And, also, remember the monarchies also for many years had private yachts, trains and planes. You don't think the queen hops onto a bus to get somewhere. And, her life is certainly not threatened as our president might be.
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