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  #181  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Smart View Post
Why do you believe ancient institutions (like Monarchies) are relevant today?

Talking about ancient institutions?We here were the only Republic amidst Monarchies for centuries,from the 16th to the 18th century.people identify with their RF,as one can not possibly expect that on a same level as one would with a George W and his croonies for example...We don't have that sort of nonsense where money an d only that buys you the position as a head of State.Dull,as in d.u.l.l.
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  #182  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:31 AM
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Why do you believe ancient institutions (like Monarchies) are relevant today?
Where would you like me to start?

Perhaps because the monarchies which have survived in democratic contries are considered relevant by the populations in these countries or the form of government would have been changed.
In other words they have adapted to the changing times.

Very political arguments, and on top of that involving a country, which was or had been in a state of rebellion against, what been until then had been the head of state and ruler are interesting but hardly relevant almost 250 years later. The world has changed, so have the conditions and perceptions of the role of the various monarchies.
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  #183  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Talking about ancient institutions?We here were the only Republic amidst Monarchies for centuries,from the 16th to the 18th century.people identify with their RF,as one can not possibly expect that on a same level as one would with a George W and his croonies for example...We don't have that sort of nonsense where money an d only that buys you the position as a head of State.Dull,as in d.u.l.l.
I could have sworn your English was better before. Anyways, the Bushs are actually a sort of dynasty, similar to the Polk political dynasty. I can understand those who are impoverished looking up to a Noble, but I can not imagine a middle-class man or woman looking up to a Royal, who is technically less wealthy than the aforementioned John Doe / Joe Bloggs.

France was the only Republic of Europe at the start of the last century.

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Where would you like me to start?

Perhaps because the monarchies which have survived in democratic contries are considered relevant by the populations in these countries or the form of government would have been changed.
In other words they have adapted to the changing times.

Very political arguments, and on top of that involving a country, which was or had been in a state of rebellion against, what been until then had been the head of state and ruler are interesting but hardly relevant almost 250 years later. The world has changed, so have the conditions and perceptions of the role of the various monarchies.
A "Democratic Monarchy" is an oxymoron.
Democracy -
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Monarchy - a state or nation in which the supreme power is actually or nominally lodged in a monarch.

the "argument" that the existence of Monarchies in the modern age is evidence for their populations wanting them is equivalent to the idea that people under dictatorships want and look up to their dictator. Yes, in some rare cases this is true, but in the vast majority of cases, people in monarchies or dictatorships, simply don't know they can end them.

The world has changed, indeed, and religiously-based Monarchies (as present in all of the current world's Monarchies, except Tonga) are not modern. They are based on absurd notions such as the 'Divine Right of Kings', and are fundamentally anti-human.
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  #184  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart View Post
A "Democratic Monarchy" is an oxymoron.
Democracy -
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
Monarchy - a state or nation in which the supreme power is actually or nominally lodged in a monarch.

the "argument" that the existence of Monarchies in the modern age is evidence for their populations wanting them is equivalent to the idea that people under dictatorships want and look up to their dictator. Yes, in some rare cases this is true, but in the vast majority of cases, people in monarchies or dictatorships, simply don't know they can end them.

The world has changed, indeed, and religiously-based Monarchies (as present in all of the current world's Monarchies, except Tonga) are not modern. They are based on absurd notions such as the 'Divine Right of Kings', and are fundamentally anti-human.
Thank you, but you don't need to lecture me on democracy.

If the majority of a population in a country with a free press and with free elections decide to have a form of government that in some way or another involves a monarchy, that's democracy at work.
So who are you to say they are wrong?

I mean, they can abolish the monarchy if a majority wish to. That's their democratic right.

As for the last part of your argument. Well, the population in the Scandinavian countries are hardly among the most religious in the world and yet, the monarchies there are pretty popular.
As for myself, I'm a staunch atheist and yet I'm a strong supporter of the monarchy.
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  #185  
Old 04-30-2011, 09:17 PM
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thomaspaine's and Smart's arguments againt monarchies, although a bit outmoded, does raise to consideration that monarchies shouled radically change it's institution and conventional wisdom.
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  #186  
Old 04-30-2011, 09:25 PM
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A person who supports the abolition of all monarchies? Fanaticism much...
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  #187  
Old 04-30-2011, 10:54 PM
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In the end, it is always the people who decide no matter what form of government. If they really don't like the government and are willing to fight against it, it's leaders will be gone. eg. the French and American revolutions and recently the uprisings in the Middle East.

I don't think there is a one type fits all government. I think the citizens of Monaco are very happy with their royal family. They have a much higher standard of living than Americans and their only assets are the sun, the sea and the Grimaldis. I see the same problems with politicians that I see with monarchs: corruption, incompetence and no term limits in the US Congress.

It's not the form of government as much as the quality of the leaders and a good constitution. Even Monaco has a constitution and it's very close to absolute rule.
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  #188  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:52 AM
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A Question

I seem to be the only one who is generally opposed to monarchy, but believes that British monarchy is of crucial significance for British national identity. Brits do not have a national day - it comes every few decades with a royal wedding, watched by hundreds of millions all over the globe. When I say Spanish you think of corrida, when I say Dutch you think of marijuana and windmills, when I say Swedish you think of Vikings. When I say British, you think of Her Majesty. What is the Dutch brand? Shell. What is the Swedish brand? IKEA and H&M. In some way, British brand is the British monarchy. It is, therefore, beyond reasonable doubt that by abolishing British monarchy you abolish British national identity. And let me remind you once again Spanish, Dutch and Swedish are ethnicities, British are not. British are English, Welsh, Scots, Irish and all other people willing to accept British values of democracy, of a free and open-minded society. They all stand together under Union Jack and what unites them is Her Majesty. Queen Liz is not a person, she is an institution. I googled a lot but I failed to find anyone of the same opinion. I think that this makes sense, doesn't it?
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  #189  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:15 AM
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What's your point?
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  #190  
Old 06-02-2011, 03:58 PM
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If you are saying the British monarchy is intertwined with the United Kingdom's identity, I wholeheartedly agree. I am not so sure that you can make such a general observation that all people think only of the Queen when they think of Britain. For example, when I think of the UK, I picture the Houses of Parliament, the beautiful villages, the mountains of Scotland, the wacky television shows, etc., and the royal family. For me, it is not just the Queen.
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  #191  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:07 PM
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wouldn't it be nice though to for once and only if for one moment, to be able to look at our president as the entire nation looks at the queen? for one second... wouldnt it be nice? in my opinion we should all have a monarchy... less room for thousands of crooked polititians.
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  #192  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:23 PM
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Be careful what you wish for ...
At least you can get rid of your Head of State....
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  #193  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:29 PM
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wouldnt need to if we had a decent one.
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  #194  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:41 PM
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US President and whether you like him or not has little to do with this discussion. I love the man personally. And this country has crooked politicians, as does probably every other country which has a monarchy. You can't single yours out when it happens everywhere.

I love have the BRF, I honestly wish however that they were like the previous generations of royals and held more power.
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  #195  
Old 06-02-2011, 06:49 PM
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I was speaking of presidents in general not just The president and my opinions of a democracy vs opinions of a monarchy. In the same respect if you took away the president of the united states would we lose our identity? i hope not. I hope that we are known for more than the president. When I think of Britain the first thing i think of is not the Queen but when I do think of Her, I admire the respect and love she is given. Saying that She is not a person but an institution could be said for every other political hero. Taking them away doesn't change the identity of a nation, it just makes way for another leader.
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  #196  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
Be careful what you wish for ...
At least you can get rid of your Head of State....
You've actually touched on a very interesting issue Renata; it was explained to me many years ago that the reason why the BRF is expected to behave in an exemplary way is quite simply for that reason: if an MP is badly behaved and the electors don't like him/her, then s/he can be kicked out; since a Royal cannot be kicked out so easily [unless there is a coup of some sort!!] s/he is expected to behave, so that people don't have the opportunity of saying 'XYZ is behaving so badly, now if he was an MP we could get rid of him.....' In other words, demanded exemplary behaviour from the BRF is a way of trying to stave off calls for republicanism....
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  #197  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:04 PM
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When I think of Britian I think of many different things, historical sites, old castles, royalty,etc. When I think of the Queen, I don't think of politics. Royalty is part of British identity. You can't take that away.

The American presidency is part of the American identity but it's a much younger identity which still is evolving as royalty has evolved. The United States would be a much different country without the presidency.
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  #198  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:34 PM
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The American presidency is part of the American identity but it's a much younger identity which still is evolving as royalty has evolved. The United States would be a much different country without the presidency.
Very true. I can't possibly imagine America without a President. It's so much with who we are as a nation. Personally I like Obama. I think he is doing a good as oppossed to some people who have overdone their 15 minutes of fame. (not saying names) I think it's only normal for a President to be unpopular Americans like getting what they want when they want and and there is no way one President can do all that, so he becomes unpopular.

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Be careful what you wish for ...
At least you can get rid of your Head of State....
It's not that easy. It's true every President can only have a maximum of 8 years in office but it's not easy to impeach a President. It's only happened twice in all of our 44 Presidents.
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  #199  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilsnub
I was speaking of presidents in general not just The president and my opinions of a democracy vs opinions of a monarchy. In the same respect if you took away the president of the united states would we lose our identity? i hope not. I hope that we are known for more than the president. When I think of Britain the first thing i think of is not the Queen but when I do think of Her, I admire the respect and love she is given. Saying that She is not a person but an institution could be said for every other political hero. Taking them away doesn't change the identity of a nation, it just makes way for another leader.
The Queen isn't a political hero.
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  #200  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:34 PM
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The Queen isn't a political hero.

As she is above the political maelstrom I agree but that she has a role to play in the political process and has done so for nearly 60 years without virtually a misstep does make her a political hero - one who is able to deal with all sides of politics without showing her own preferences is a hard act to follow.
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