Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Should the European monarchies fall, it will be predominantly for political reasons.
I cannot, even in my wildest dreams, imagine commoners marrying into the royal families would be a significant factor.
The behavior of the royals, yes. If the institution itself becomes too common, yes. Whom they marry, no way.
 
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Daniel is doing a fine job so far but when anyone can do this, it is the best plea to end the circus. By the way, the popularity of the Swedish monarchy, despite all the happy events, is not that high, in comparison with some other monarchies.

And... who says that someone, eeeerhmmmm, let us say Jean-Christophe Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon (here with his sister Princess Caroline in front of their famous ancestor) would not be a great Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland? At the same time such a consort would have added a new dimension to the Royal House, for sure knowing that one of Napoléon's best generals, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, Maréchal du Empire, became Sweden's first Bernadotte King.

All newspapers would have mentioned it. The Daily Mail would not have written "Crown Princess weds her trainer" but inform the (surprised) public that there still is a Napoléon walking around and that he has conquered the heart of Sweden's beautiful Crown Princess. It is just an example. I know that Daniel is a great dude but his greatness is the best proof that we can end the monarchy today, if you understand what I mean.

Are you seriously telling us that Victoria marrying a noble rather than a commoner would improve the standing of the monarchy in Sweden of all places?!? Probably the most, almost obsessively, egalitarian country in the world.
Have you ever been to Sweden? Or talked with ordinary Swedes about this issue? I'm serious. Have you ever discussed this issue with the ordinary Gösta and Freja?

I can tell you that the reservations I have heard from ordinary Swedes is not based on them being commoners, but on their background (Sofia) and/or lack of qualifications (Sofia and Daniel).
 
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I do not see the difference between 'commoner' and nobility.

If the father is titled but the mother isn't why should the child be classified as nobility?

If the mother is titled but the father isn't why should the child be classified as commoner?

What makes a person a commoner? A member of the nobility?

If a titled man marries a commoner and his son marries a commoner and his son married a commoner and his son marries a commoner why should the sons and grandsons and greatgrandsons be consider noble.

The son has half or less noble blood, the grandson had one fourth or less noble blood and greatgrandson has one eight or less noble blood.

How does one decide if the person is a member of the nobility?

If a woman can trace her ancestry 1000 years with the majority being members of royalty but she is not consider noble because her mother married an untitled man yet a man is considered nobility if his grandfather received a title 50 years ago.

IMO, there is no difference between a 'commoner' and the 'nobility'. Almost all who married into the RF after the 1940s were/are a commoner.

It is just a case of sexism continuing into the 21st century.

As the saying goes mama's baby daddy's maybe.
The RF families knew this and that is why they had people in the bedroom making sure the marriages were consummated.
 
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I do not see the difference between 'commoner' and nobility.

If the father is titled but the mother isn't why should the child be classified as nobility?

If the mother is titled but the father isn't why should the child be classified as commoner?

What makes a person a commoner? A member of the nobility?

If a titled man marries a commoner and his son marries a commoner and his son married a commoner and his son marries a commoner why should the sons and grandsons and greatgrandsons be consider noble.

The son has half or less noble blood, the grandson had one fourth or less noble blood and greatgrandson has one eight or less noble blood.
How does one decide if the person is a member of the nobility?

If a woman can trace her ancestry 1000 years with the majority being members of royalty but she is not consider noble because her mother married an untitled man yet a man is considered nobility if his grandfather received a title 50 years ago.

IMO, there is no difference between a 'commoner' and the 'nobilty'. Almost all who married into the RF after the 1940s is a commoner.

You are right. You don't.
It's who inherits the title that matters.

Also, in this day an age, the majority of nobles have ordinary jobs. A few own estates, even fewer have a serious fortune.
But the majority are indistinguishable from the commoners they live and work with.
 
In Britain individuals are ennobled not families. Lady Diana Spencer wasn't a noble (her father was) Even royals in Britain are commoners.

So anyone who is not the sovereign or the holder of a substantive peerage is a commoner in Britain.
 
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:previous: Indeed.

Let's turn the question around.
If I for whatever reason is ennobled, say becoming a count. Am I suddenly more qualified to marry a royal? Or am I just pretending to be a noble?
What about my children? Are they more qualified than I am to marry a royal, as they will be second generation nobles? - There won't be much difference in their upbringing. They will still be taught the same values as now.
If they are not "noble enough", when are they?
When they are third or fifth generation nobles?
What if one of them, say my son, marry a commoner. Will that reduce their children to first generation nobles? Or will they become third generation nobles? Because they will still inherit my title as count of whatever.

Is my son (Who BTW I'm waiting to pick up. :cheers::p) only to marry another noble before his children are noble enough to marry a royal?
 
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I do not see the difference between 'commoner' and nobility.

If the father is titled but the mother isn't why should the child be classified as nobility?

If the mother is titled but the father isn't why should the child be classified as commoner?

What makes a person a commoner? A member of the nobility?

Good questions. Basically, in those countries where nobility has official recognition, the law clearly defines who is noble and who is not.

In the UK, strictly speaking there is no such thing as a "nobility", but rather a "peerage", i.e the set of all individuals who bear the titles of duke, marquess, earl, viscount, or baron and who, until 1999, were entitled to sit and vote in the House of Lords. With a few exceptions, these titles are normally inherited only in male line by the first-born son. Wives and daughters of a peer, as well as their sons (including the firstborn before he inherits the title) may use courtesy titles or honorific predicates, but, strictly speaking, they are "commoners" in the sense that they could, already before 1999 vote and stand as candidates in elections to the House of Commons. In the broader sense and in common usage though, people normally identify the immediate family of a peer (for example, an earl's daughter like Lady Diana Spencer) as "nobility".

In continental Europe, on the other hand, the concept of "nobility" in somewhat different. In the Netherlands, for example, there are 3 main categories of "nobility": (1) individuals from native Dutch families who were ennobled by a sovereign (e.g. the Holy German Emperor or the French King) prior to the creation of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and whose nobility status was recognized by a Dutch monarch; (2) individuals who belong to the nobility of another country and were incorporated into the nobility of the Netherlands by a Dutch monarch; and (3) individuals who were elevated to the nobility of the Netherlands by a Dutch monarch. In all cases, nobility may come with a title (in the Netherlands, usually baron or, more rarely, count) or not (there is something then called "untitled nobility" . e.g. a jonkheer or jonkvrouw). In the case of recognized (and sometimes also incorporated) nobility, the nobility status , including titles like count or baron, normally extends from birth to all male and female descendants of a family, but only in male line, meaning that fathers can transmit nobility (and titles if any) to all their sons and daughters, but mothers do not transmit nobility to any of their children. In the case of elevated nobility, many times titles are transmitted only to the first-born son (or the "head of the family"), but other descendants in male line remain "untitled nobility".

In Scandinavia, the Kingdom of Norway doesn't have a nobility (just a royal family). In Denmark, the nobility is still legally recognized and, in Sweden, it ceased to be officially recognized in 2003 (?), but individuals who belong to the nobility may still use their titles. From what I understand, Sweden was similar to the Netherlands in the sense that there were titled nobles (counts and barons) and untitled nobility. Moreover, the old nobility from the pre-Bernadotte era (i.e. dating prior to 1810) is also inheritable by all male and female descendants in the family, but again only in male line,whereas the new titles of nobility created after 1810 are normally inherited by the first-born son only.

Spain, on the other hand, seems to have a system also similar to the UK. There are ranking titles of nobility like duke, marquis, count, viscount, etc. inheritable by the firstborn, except that in Spain, daughters can now also inherit titles if they are the first child (or, at least, I believe they can, but I'm not very knowledgeable about Spanish rules). Then there is a separate, special status of "grandee" of Spain, which can be awarded by the king to a noble person, e.g. a duke or a marquis, but can also be awarded to an untitled individual.
 
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I is all nonsense. If they didn't marry "Commoners" many would stay single forever. The big German marrying farms no longer count. So, you marry who you love and can. In defense of marry during Queen Victoria's times, she still felt you should marry for "love".
 
In Britain individuals are ennobled not families. Lady Diana Spencer wasn't a noble (her father was) Even royals in Britain are commoners.

So anyone who is not the sovereign or the holder of a substantive peerage is a commoner in Britain.

Well in Britain strictly spoken you have the Sovereign, the Peers and the rest are "commoners". That is true, but as so often in the UK, where everything seem unwritten (there is not even a written Constitution....) and vested on traditions, you need to read between the lines and see the context.

Lady Diana Spencer, daughter of the 8th Earl Spencer and of the Honourable Frances Burke Roche (herself a daughter of the 4th Baron Fermoy) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, daughter of 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne and of Nina Cavendish-Bentinck (a prestigious Dutch-British noble dynasty) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott, daughter of the 7th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Scotland's largest landowner) and of Lady Margaret Brigdeman (herself a daughter of the 4th Earl of Bradford) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

:lol:
 
I is all nonsense. If they didn't marry "Commoners" many would stay single forever. The big German marrying farms no longer count. So, you marry who you love and can. In defense of marry during Queen Victoria's times, she still felt you should marry for "love".

What do you mean, the big German marrying farms no longer count? They are still there, often in great wealth, on large estates and with glittering jewels many Queens could be jealous off.

Oh yes, under Queen Victoria apparently one should marry for "love" (I hear Charles mumbling: "Whatever love means"). But let us oversee the list of all her in-laws, the result of her children marrying "for love":

Prince Friedrich von Preussen (later German Emperor)
Princess Alexandra of Denmark
Prince Ludwig von Hessen (later Grand Duke of Hessen)
Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand Duchess of Russia
Prince Christian von Schleswig-Holstein
Lord John Douglas Sutherland Campbell (later 9th Duke of Argyll)
Princess Luise Margaret von Preussen
Princess Helena von Waldeck und Pyrmont
Prince Heinrich Moritz von Battenberg

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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Spain, on the other hand, seems to have a system also similar to the UK. There are ranking titles of nobility like duke, marquis, count, viscount, etc. inheritable by the firstborn, except that in Spain, daughters can now also inherit titles if they are the first child (or, at least, I believe they can, but I'm not very knowledgeable about Spanish rules). Then there is a separate, special status of "grandee" of Spain, which can be awarded by the king to a noble person, e.g. a duke or a marquis, but can also be awarded to an untitled individual.
In Spain since 2005 titles are inherited by the firstborn child of the deceased holder, and no longer by the firstborn son.
But in Spain - and I believe this can happen only there and not in any other country - the holder of many titles can chose to distribute during his lifetime his subsidiary titles to other relatives different from his heir presumptive; this is usually used to allow younger children to inherit a title.
Another big difference of the Spanish system from the other countries is that the succession to a title isn't authomatic: after the title holder dies, his heir presumtive in order to succeed has to petition the title, within two years from the death. If the heir meets certain requirements, he is granter the title; otherwise - if he is denied the title or if more than two years pass between the death of the holder and his petition - the next heir can petition it.
 
He's a fake. He claims a number of titles that aren't his to claim.
 
Am I not correct that Napoleon was from a very modest family though he was very successful at warfare. However HE crowned himself emperor sooo, what about this Prince mentioned above .... he calls himself a Prince but what makes him so? I suspect that most royals started out the very same way so who is to say one is royal or not?
 
I need to clarify that the reason I even mentioned Masako was in response to someone who referenced her as a bad result of a royal marrying a commoner, it was not my idea to bring her up.
Half of me thinks this conversation is funny the other half is just annoyed that we are trying to use logic to argue with people with such......well let's just leave it at that.
Marrying for love should not be the only qualification, a Prince shouldn't be allowed to marry a crack addict woman with 3 kids from 3 different father's and has never had a job but just lives off the state.....or the ocotomom. But commoners can be just as qualified to representing their country as aritocrats are; in some cases they can be more qualified because of their history and experience. I believe who an individual person is shoukd be what qualifies then for the job, not who their freakin ancestors from the 13th century was.
 
I agree with Xenia! And I don't want to call names, but some commoner queens or consorts have done much better in representing their countries than, let's say, their "aristos" counterparts!
 
I agree with Xenia! And I don't want to call names, but some commoner queens or consorts have done much better in representing their countries than, let's say, their "aristos" counterparts!
Commoner Queens and Consorts represent the country by using illustrious past and connections of the families they married into.
 
Commoner Queens and Consorts represent the country by using illustrious past and connections of the families they married into.
Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles:whistling:
 
Am I not correct that Napoleon was from a very modest family though he was very successful at warfare. However HE crowned himself emperor sooo, what about this Prince mentioned above .... he calls himself a Prince but what makes him so? I suspect that most royals started out the very same way so who is to say one is royal or not?


I'm assuming you're talking about the Napoleons here?

During Napoleon I's reign he created all his siblings Prince and Princesses of the French Imperial Family. I believe he also created 1 brother-in-law, his uncle, his stepson, and his sisters-in-law members of the FIF. The eldest son of one of his brothers, Louis, who had married Napoleon's stepdaughter, Hortense, was named as Napoleon's heir since at the time Napoleon had no children of his own.

This child, Little Napoleon I believe, would die as a child, and Napoleon would end up divorcing his first wife and remarrying a woman, with whom he had a son, Napoleon II. However, Napoleon II didn't have children himself (he died in his early 20s).

The second French Empire was established by another of Louis's sons, who styled himself as Napoleon III (he was either Louis-Napoleon or Napoleon-Louis, I can't remember; Louis had 3 sons, Charles Napoleon, Louis Napoleon, and Napoleon Louis), and establishing himself as Napoleon's heir. This kind of established the idea that the heirs of Napoleon were the children of his brothers.

The current Napoleons (VII and VIII) are the descendants of the youngest brother of Napoleon, Jerome, who I believe is the only of the Bonaparte brothers to have living, legitimate male-line descendants today. Charles, Prince Napoleon VII, is the elder but was bypassed in the succession in favour of his son, Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoleon VIII, as Charles had spoken in favour of a republic.
 
Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles:whistling:
They have to. Otherwise they will be crucified by enlightened free media.
 
The most royals started out the very same way? What do you mean? They all crowned himselfs royals like Napoleon? So you ,me and all the others here can we become royals so easy?

That was a long time ago, I don't think we could do the same. I suspect the population would just think we were crazy ..... unless of course we had a VERY large army behind us. :lol:
 
Yes, but this confirms the theory that being royal by birth is not equivalent to make a good job:lol:
I have been reading this thread for several days. The discussion is running in circles at this point. There are too many Cinderellas nowadays, who try hard to act like "aristos". The downgraded European bloodlines use saccharine PR campaigns to polish their tarnished heraldic symbols and market their new acquisitions.
 
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Should the European monarchies fall, it will be predominantly for political reasons.
I cannot, even in my wildest dreams, imagine commoners marrying into the royal families would be a significant factor.
The behavior of the royals, yes. If the institution itself becomes too common, yes. Whom they marry, no way.

Indeed. There's no historical precedence. Of all the monarchies that have fallen through History none had a commoner turned royal in the main line, and yet all their royal consorts didn't prevent their demise.
If we go back to the 19th, early 20th century the royals started widening the marriage pool (a pool that was bigger in the early middle ages). There was no longer a need for political alliances and they started marrying into the nobility. Of course they wouldn't marry outside the royal or noble circle, they didn't have the chance to meet lowly commoners, many weren't educated, couldn't read or write, even their speech marked them as members of the lower classes. They had nothing in common.
But in the last decades royals go to school, to university, they go to the theatre, they sail, they mingle with many people, have different friends. And commoners also have chances they didn't have before. They go to university and many are more educated than the royals, they travel and learn foreign languages, they visit museums and attend the opera, they work and buy houses, cars, nice clothes...Now they can have a real relationship with a royal, they can share values and hobbies, they can spend time together, get to know each other and see if royal life is for them, they can fall in love.

Why would a noble, who's only noble because an ancestor in the 17th century did something great (or bought a title), or a deposed royal who doesn't know the language, the country, works like a commoner in a bank, and knows nothing of living in the royal fishbowl be a better consort than a commoner?

Then there are systems to check the suitability of a consort, checks that are also in place for possible royal or noble brides/grooms. (Mabel's history would have been equally problematic had she been a German princess) Approval of the Sovereign, the Government, Parliament...If someone is not deemed fit to represent that country, something's got to give. Sometimes the royals themselves are not fit to do any representing, so the choice of "unsuitable" consorts are a reflection on them more than anything else.

Of course this reasoning is only valid to those of us who think that royals are normal people in a special and historical system, a monarchy, that maintains a function and use in society and not those who believe in magic royal blood, diluted bloodlines or divine rights. Like someone already said, every royal has an ancestor that was once a commoner, some of them, like the Napoleons or the Bernadottes are relatively recent, but all were once commoners grabbing power.
 
Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles:whistling:

That is strictly subjective. For example if one happens to like the commoner better than the "blue blooded noble" then your automatic opinion is that they are doing the job better.

I can't think of any commoner spouse who-based on actual fact and not personal opinion-is outperforming an aristocratic one.

And for the record it's not a contest/competition, like the Olympics.

Al-bina, as is usually the case I agree with you 100%.
 
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That is strictly subjective. For example if one happens to like the commoner better than the "blue blooded noble" then your automatic opinion is that they are doing the job better.

And this opinion is most of the time based on little besides who you happen to like better and the often skewered rants you have read online and in the media. Not actual facts.


That's in part true... but some facts speak volumes IMO... and in some cases I have a neutral opinion on that royal...
 

I have been reading this thread for several days. The discussion is running in circles at this point. There are too many Cinderellas nowadays, who try hard to act like "aristos". The downgraded European bloodlines use saccharine PR campaigns to polish their tarnished heraldic symbols and market their new acquisitions.

Iam talking about official engagemennts and personality, not about some commoners playing the cinderella part... most of them are not cinderella at all... And I don't based my opinion only on media or pr machine, which often are contradictory...
 
I've said it before but unless we have personally met these men and women or know someone who has, decided someone is or isn't doing a good job based on what we think their "personality" is is frankly as bogus as it gets.

I liked and admired Diana Spencer. Based on her photos and her press and her beautiful clothes I assumed that she was as angelic and uncomplicated as she appeared to be. And I believed the press who ASSUMED SHE WAS WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE ON THE OUTSIDE.

Diana's flawless outside appearance and dedication to her work caused me to form an opinion about her that turned out in the end to be completely wrong.

Don't judge a book by it's cover!
 
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