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  #381  
Old 07-16-2017, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
JC Bernadotte was indeed a soldier, of no particular "good family".. but his family marred into the royal families of Europe and so technically yes she is "more royal" than her husband.



And now Daniel has married into the royal families of Europe.
So, he and Victoria are now equally royal!
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  #382  
Old 07-16-2017, 08:10 AM
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I believe we have to distinguish three categories in this thread.


1) Marriage to "commoners", e.g. Máxima, Laurentien, Letizia, Mary, Mette-Marit, Daniel, Sofia (Hellqvist), Chris O'Neill, Sophie, Kate and, in a previous generation, Sonja, Silvia and Maria Teresa.

2) Marriage to "nobility", which includes e.g. Fabiola, Paola, Mathilde, Stéphanie, Henri, Claus, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, or Diana. I would also include marriage to "gentry" like Sarah or Camilla into this category, as they fit the broader "continental" (rather than British) definition of nobility, as do daughters of peers like Diana or Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon (I know, technically "commoners" in the UK, but definitely nobility by continental standards).

3) Marriage to other royals, the last major examples of which were: Elizabeth and Philip, Juan Carlos and Sofia, Constantine and Anne-Marie, Ernst August Sr. and Caroline, and Alois and Sophie of Bavaria (note: there seems to be a much larger number of inter-dynastic marriages involving two non-reigning families, but I am not counting those).

Broadly speaking, I would say category 1 above is becoming the norm nowadays, and is likely to remain so in the future. That has to do not only with changing social attitudes and the changing nature of the monarchy, but also with the fact that royals increasingly live more "normal" lives today in the sense of going to normal schools and universities (as opposed to being tutored in a palace) and generally mingling / having social relations with what was formerly called "middle-class people". I would still make a distinction though between marriage with the "upper middle-class" (or "patrician class" as signified more by wealth rather than birth), which IMHO includes people like Kate, Chris O'Neill or Máxima, who would normally be in the same social circles as royals these days, and marriage to others who, without intending to sound pedantic, would be normally seen as being definitely of lower social standing, as was the case with some recent royal marriages in Norway and Sweden.

Having said that, category 2 (i.e marriage to nobility in the broader sense, but not royalty) is still a possibility that should not be dismissed. Some royal families like the Belgian Coburgs for example seem to still set the bar at marrying at least nobility, although Laurent already married an upper middle-class woman (Claire), whereas Astrid married another (non-ruling) royal and Philippe married a noble woman as his father and uncle had done before.

To a certain extent, especially in the UK, nobility in that broader sense is also part of the same social circle of modern royals with the added bonus, relatively to "new" upper middle-class, of a "family name". Contrary to what is often assumed though, in terms of education or being better"prepared" or adjusted to royal life, I don't really see nobility having any inherent advantage over upper middle-class that has, especially in the UK, a similar upbringing.

The category that does have, however, an advantage in terms of knowing royal life from birth are obviously royals themselves, especially if they come from an actual reigning family. Marriages between royals, however, are increasingly less frequent and, I'm afraid, won't be back in the future. There are increasingly fewer reigning families, so the choices are limited, and inter-dynastic marriages, as others have said, are no longer a matter of international diplomacy . On the other hand, marrying a foreign bride or groom from a deposed family in continental Europe adds little value to current reigning families compared to marrying local middle-class brides/grooms, who would be more popular domestically.
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  #383  
Old 07-16-2017, 08:59 AM
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Peter York, the author of The Official Sloane Ranger Handbook (the one with Lady Diana on the cover), was asked in an interview a few years ago if Kate was a 'Sloane' and he didn't hesitate.

"The impulse behind the question over whether she’s a Sloane is a snobbish one,” he said, “Of course she is. She's from a well-off Home Counties family, she went to Downe House, Marlborough and St Andrews, for God’s sake."

So the fact she doesn't have 'Lady' in front of her name is meaningless in 2017.

The Middletons are in the top 0.5 percent of earners in Britain. Kate has a private school education that only 7 percent of Brits enjoy.

We need to keep 'commoner' in perspective.
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  #384  
Old 07-16-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
And now Daniel has married into the royal families of Europe.
So, he and Victoria are now equally royal!
Not quite. CP Victoria has several generations of royal ancestors besides all the former Bernadotte kings per se. For example, her father descends from Queen Victoria of the UK both in paternal and maternal line, and he also descends from the former (i.e. pre-Bernadotte) kings of Sweden via the wife of King Gustav V. I don't think you can seriously compare Victoria's family tree to Daniel's.

Quote:
Peter York, the author of The Official Sloane Ranger Handbook (the one with Lady Diana on the cover), was asked in an interview a few years ago if Kate was a 'Sloane' and he didn't hesitate.

"The impulse behind the question over whether she’s a Sloane is a snobbish one,” he said, “Of course she is. She's from a well-off Home Counties family, she went to Downe House, Marlborough and St Andrews, for God’s sake."

So the fact she doesn't have 'Lady' in front of her name is meaningless in 2017.

The Middletons are in the top 0.5 percent of earners in Britain. Kate has a private school education that only 7 percent of Brits enjoy.

We need to keep 'commoner' in perspective.

My point exactly above.
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  #385  
Old 07-16-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
And now Daniel has married into the royal families of Europe.
So, he and Victoria are now equally royal!
No, not in the sense I meant it. Bernadotte became king almost 200 years ago, and his offspring married into the RFs of euroepe, so Victoria has that blood from many royal ancestors.
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  #386  
Old 07-16-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I would still make a distinction though between marriage with the "upper middle-class" (or "patrician class" as signified more by wealth rather than birth), which IMHO includes people like Kate, Chris O'Neill or Máxima, who would normally be in the same social circles as royals these days, and marriage to others who, without intending to sound pedantic, would be normally seen as being definitely of lower social standing, as was the case with some recent royal marriages in Norway and Sweden.
.
Hadn't really thought about it, but imo you have a good point making this distinction. F.i. in the NL where the difference between "classes" is very small (if even at all existant anymore), the commoners that married in the RF are definitely not from a "low income" background, but are actually from quite well to do families, f.i. policians (on national or european level).
And indeed, they would nowadays mingle in the same circles as royals, so it's no surprise that marriages occur.
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