Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles

[karima]

Indeed the current batch of CP was definitely not expected, specially for Mette-Marit and Letizia. Mary has done well for herself, I think. I've never heard of scandals or past relationships coming back to haunt her. She was a lawyer I think.
As for Letizia, although she is a divorcee, she was a public figure in Spain and had a great career, so maybe that compensates for her family background.
A great move also for Morroco's Princess Salma who is a young professional. She is from a very modest home too but seemed irreprochable as to her life.
As for MM, does someone know if she has ever worked and which field?

 

[Genevieve]

I do think that Sommone might be a bit right because, even in ordinary families, people still have trouble when it comes to interracial marriage.

It's rather unfortunate that in the year 2005 some people still have problems with interracial marriages, whether it is ordinary couples or famous couples like royal couples. I think it's rather a bad reflection on those people who have such problems.

 

[Genevieve]

Indeed the current batch of CP was definitely not expected, specially for Mette-Marit and Letizia. Mary has done well for herself, I think. I've never heard of scandals or past relationships coming back to haunt her. She was a lawyer I think.

Actually recently there was a story about an ex-boyfriend of Mary's. They dated for several years and lived together. It was not a big scandal as most people understandably realized that Mary is a woman in her thirties and was not completely naive about men or relationships when she met and married Frederik.

As for Letizia, although she is a divorcee, she was a public figure in Spain and had a great career, so maybe that compensates for her family background.

What exactly is it about her family background that required "compensation" by her career? Because her parents are divorced? She comes from a family with respected journalists in their own rights and parents who are educated and both of whom have never committed any crimes or the like. So what about the Ortiz-Roscalano family need "compensating" exactly? I'm confused on this one.

 

[karima]

Spain is a catholic country and they used to be very strict about divorce and so on. So it is, I think because Letizia was known that she was easily accepted as a CP. Fromer girlfriends of Felipe who came from divorced families or where models (which to some people is not a respectable job) were not liked.

 

[Genevieve]

Spain is a catholic country and they used to be very strict about divorce and so on. So it is, I think because Letizia was known that she was easily accepted as a CP. Fromer girlfriends of Felipe who came from divorced families or where models (which to some people is not a respectable job) were not liked.

Which of Felipe's previous girlfriends were divorced or came from disrespectful families? Isabelle Sartorius was very well liked and came from a very good family.

As for his former girlfriends who were models, like Eva Sannum, they were not liked or considered ideal as the future Princess of Asturias because of their modelling jobs and the availability of pictures of them half nake or naked. Eva particularly got a lot of flack for having modelled in her underwear.

 

[karima]

Isabel Sartorius' parents were divorced and that, at the time, caused problems. She was an aristocrat I believe but the King and Queen did not like her also because she was older than the Prince.
Times have changed and what was unacceptable became OK also because Felipe is older and they were eager to see him married. If I read correctly in the spanish press that he definitly told his parents that it was either Letizia or nobody,
I'll get you the articles if I can.

 

[karima]

Genevieve, can you read spanish?

Isabel Sartorius. Su encuentro con don Felipe tuvo un marco tan casual como solidario: una conferencia impartida por un primo sacerdote de Isabel sobre Perú. Al acabar, el primo les presenta, él le pide su número de teléfono y dos meses más tarde, ambos veraneaban en Mallorca. Isabel Sartorius ha permanecido como la princesa ideal para los españoles hasta el día de difuntos de 2003. En contra: No gustaba porque era hija de separados, no tenía sangre azul y era casi cuatro años mayor que él.
Source : El Mundo


I have other articles about that story if you want.

 

[karima]

http://www.el-mundo.es/encuentros/invitados/2003/11/875/

 

[AsianRedneck]

Commoners

Hi!
I personally think that Royalty should marry for love and not for having true royal blood in them. After all, didn't all royals start out as commoners?(think WAY in the days.) What about Napoleon? He was just a general or something like that. Then he became a royal. By the way, has there been any European royalty who's married an Asian commoner? Thx.

 

[pallas athina]

Prince Joaqim (sp?) was married to Alexandra Manley who was half British and half Chinese. He's the second son of the Danish queen. They divorced this month however after about 10 years of marriage.

 

[sara1981]

Princess Diana is daughter of wealthy her dad is Earl 8th Charles Spencer when she was little girls she raise into riches house and her dad was closes friend of HM Queen 2 of England and friend of Mr.Fayed father of Dodi Fayed but Diana known Fayeds for long time when Diana was little girls.

im not sure about Sophie Wessex? Sarah,Duchess of York? Camilla,Duchess of Cornwall ?

Sara Boyce

 

[karima]

Just as every little boy goes through the phase of thinking he is a pirate or a knight, every little girl goes through the phase of thinking she is a princess. It doesn't matter how right-on the family or how many dumper trucks and plastic toolboxes she is given at Christmas, she will, at some stage in her life, insist on walking around the house in something pink and frilly, with a petticoat over her head. (In fact, it's so much fun, I even know one or two little boys who do it, too.) And it's not just a commoner thing, either. I have it on good authority, for example, that Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie were just the same when they were younger--the only difference being that the tiaras they used as props weren't necessarily made of plastic.
​

Read the rest article on ....http://youngroyals.pigeonhole-this.com/postmodern_princess.html

 

[karima]

But now that politics is constitutionally separated from the palace, love is allowed to triumph over duty.
Denmark and Spain last month were the latest to witness the weddings of their crown princes — the future kings of their ancient monarchies — to commoners.
On May 14, Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, scion of Europe's oldest royal house, wed Mary Donaldson, a law-trained businesswoman from Australia.
In Madrid on May 22, Crown Prince Filipe of the Royal House of Bourbon married Letizia Ortiz, a former TV anchorwoman.
They join the list of princes — among them Norwegian and Dutch — who forswore the search for aristocratic matches, found their brides in the ranks of the people, and married them without having to renounce their claim to the throne.
"I can't predict whether these marriages will work out. But they are breathtakingly different from anything that happened in the past," said Harold Brooks-Baker, publishing director of Burke's Peerage in London, one of the bibles of aristocratic lineages.
Mr. Brooks-Baker thought some of the choices of brides were "strange."
"Most of these people don't belong to the aristocratic class, or even to upper-middle-class families. Some are from very obscure backgrounds, and some have controversial pasts," he said.
The aristocratic crowd may sniff at the new royals, but the young women are popular with the people, and in some cases have thrown open the windows of stuffy old palaces.
(......)
More than 20 European monarchies disappeared in the 20th century, leaving only nine in power, said Mr. Brooks-Baker.
Mr. De Horde believes that although mixed marriages bring new blood to inbred families, "The biggest threat comes from within. It is the eagerness of the king or queen to get close to the people. But they have to keep a distance.
"A monarch has to keep in mind what his real function is — to be a head of state."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040627-120846-8185r.htm

 

[bigheadshirmp]

Prince Joaqim (sp?) was married to Alexandra Manley who was half British and half Chinese. He's the second son of the Danish queen. They divorced this month however after about 10 years of marriage.

Princess Alexandra is not half British and half Chinese....she's techinically 1/4 chinese 1/4 british and 1/2 austrian.....her dad is half british half chinese....her mother is from Austria

 

[Tzu An]

Well said!
I guess Charles marrying Camilla today is also going to be an argument in favour of thos who think we can modernize the monarchy with divorce, single parenting and so on....
I hope, this is not going to be the trend. It would be a pity that the monarchy should just mimic ordinary people. It is never a happy moment to divorce, have a baby as a single parent,...not matter what people say.

I agree. Half the issue is that most of the commoners don't have a realistic grasp of the amount of immense duties and responsibilities expected of them. Furthermore monarchies are modern enough. As for Diana, well, I identify with her neuroses. I have generalized anxiety disorder and as a result I worry about everything and sadly have a tendency to overreact. I know for a fact that I could not handle all the things expected of me. I believe that most commoners, male or female who marry into the royal family should realize that in order to provide dignity they need to stick with their marriages. It provides stability; furthermore as for Mette Marit, her life as part of the drug scene and a single mother (without benefit of wedlock) shows her to be somewhat irresponsible and unthinking of the future consequences of her actions. Now a nice female from a middle to upper middle class family with no children should be preferable.

 

[His Lordship]

You know...all these young ladies who seem so enthralled by wanting to marry William and Harry..

I wonder if they know what is in store for them..

You think the press was bad with Diana?

Can YOU even imagine what they will do when William and Harry marry?

It is now open season with both princes now that William is done with University. That was the agreement between Fleet Street and Clarence House.

The press feels these are not little boys anymore, but grown men who have had time to grieve....now they want those pictures.

I genuinely feel sorry for both of them as the walls are about to come down even further and anytime they make a move as they get closer to "marrying age", the press and paparazzi will be there to eat it up.

My only hope is they find women with a strongth sense of resolve and love and they endure courtship and marriage.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, William seems to be being clever with his attachment to Kate Middleton; she's become such a familiar part of his life already that the press is going to start getting bored. If he ends up marrying her it won't be much of a story, and if he's using her as a smoke screen while he goes after other girls, it almost seems as though the press is a bit beyond caring. Perhaps if Prince Charles had found himself a long-term girlfriend like that, the press wouldn't have been in such a frenzy every time he was seen even looking at a woman.

I agree about the strong woman and the steady relationship. It'd serve the press right if both princes ended up with the same sort of worthy and unexciting relationships that the Duke of Gloucester seems to have. You hardly ever see the Duke and Duchess in the papers for personal reasons. Heck, the tabloids would go bankrupt! What a shame

 

[His Lordship]

I agree Elspeth.....wouldn't that be great if they dated a wonderful girl who was just ordinary in the sense they have a long relationship, marry, and not have that same crazy type of marriage his parents had..

Let's all be honest though...part of the media's intense interest in the younger royals is based on physically attractive they are....I am not trying to sound shallow, but if one or the other are soooo good looking, then the press will be all over them.

Part of the reason HM has such good looking grandchildren is because her children married outside the gene pool.

No more Hanoverian busts...or horsey looking teeth or big ears....

 

[sara1981]

Well, William seems to be being clever with his attachment to Kate Middleton; she's become such a familiar part of his life already that the press is going to start getting bored. If he ends up marrying her it won't be much of a story, and if he's using her as a smoke screen while he goes after other girls, it almost seems as though the press is a bit beyond caring. Perhaps if Prince Charles had found himself a long-term girlfriend like that, the press wouldn't have been in such a frenzy every time he was seen even looking at a woman.

I agree about the strong woman and the steady relationship. It'd serve the press right if both princes ended up with the same sort of worthy and unexciting relationships that the Duke of Gloucester seems to have. You hardly ever see the Duke and Duchess in the papers for personal reasons. Heck, the tabloids would go bankrupt! What a shame

i would agree with you!

but Prince William and Kate will still good couples! since at colleges im tell you about that! but Kate went with William to Skiing for vacation with Prince of Wales and Prince Harry also but if Prince Charles think of Kate will like with William for years more same his Uncle the Prince Edward who been together with long-time girlfriend Sophie-Rhys Jones for 6 years they got married!

but i think William and Kate will still more together for 2 years now

Sara Boyce

 

[Iain]

On May 14, Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, scion of Europe's oldest royal house, wed Mary Donaldson, a law-trained businesswoman from Australia.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040627-120846-8185r.htmhttp://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040627-120846-8185r.htm

The Washington Post obviously hasn't heard about the Grimaldis who are Europe's oldest royal house. The Danish royal house, the Glucksborgs, have only been in power since 1863.

 

[Smilla]

and they've been doing a good job!

It is the type of commoners that are marrying into the royal family that is becoming tacky.

While I personally prefer royal-royal, royal-noble, and royal-aristocratic matches; I can tolerate a royal-commoner match provided that the commoner comes from a good family with little or no scandals.

However that has not been happening, so far we've had two divorcees, single mother, a woman whose father was involved with the death of millions of people..etc.

Today there doesn't seem to be a limit as to what is no longer unsuitable. That is what is becoming tacky, imo.

There is a double standard involved here (and I'm sure it has been said a million times) as there are people like P Harry or P Stephanie or P Ernst-August who have led lives far from flawless and who aren't regarded as unworthy members of royal houses.

The people mentioned above - Letizia, Mette-Marit, and also Maxima - have done a great job under difficult circumstances. They should be respected instead of being blamed. Come on - this is the 21st century after all, and we are not dependent on saintly royals as role models!

 

[Josefine]

but many of them are related so it has to be some new blood in the famlies maybe in the future we will see royal marrying royals again

 

[Jamerican]

It is the type of commoners that are marrying into the royal family that is becoming tacky.

While I personally prefer royal-royal, royal-noble, and royal-aristocratic matches; I can tolerate a royal-commoner match provided that the commoner comes from a good family with little or no scandals.

However that has not been happening, so far we've had two divorcees, single mother, a woman whose father was involved with the death of millions of people..etc.

Today there doesn't seem to be a limit as to what is no longer unsuitable. That is what is becoming tacky, imo.

It's funny how things change. 150 years ago, Lady Eizabeth Bowes Lyon would not have been considered suitable as a royal match- yet we now remember her as the Matriarch of British Royal Family. now, almost 100 years after her birth, there are women marrying into royalty who wouldn't have been deemed suitable 20 years ago.
I think royal-commoner marriages were probably inevitable, and is actually a good thing, particularly for the bloodlines. You can only marry your cousins for so long.
I don't think we will know for another 5-10 years or so whether or not it was a successful experiment. I certainly hope it is, because I don't think certain royal families, can afford to have their crown princes divorce. Denmark and the Netherlands could probably get away with it, if it was handled properly, but I don't think the Norwegian and Spanish monarchies can afford a divorce.

As for a black person marrying into a European Royal family; As a black person, here is my opinion:

A black man definitely could not do it, even if he is Kofi Annan's son, a diplomat, a member of Mensa and holds a graduate degree from Harvard (Magna Cum laude). Perhaps that goes without saying. Can you imagine the reaction in Sweden if Crown Princess Victoria presented the above black man as her fiancee? (are you scared yet? ;-) )I think that both Carl Gustaf and Silvia would probably have to be heavily sedated.

As for a black woman, well, there are quite a few African Princesses around, and we didn't see the Princes rushing there looking for royal spouses, did we? I think it is possible that in the next 50 years or so a crown prince may fall in love and marry a black woman. However, that woman would have to have the same qualifications as the black man above, and god help her if she makes a mistake. She will have even less margin for error than our friend Mary.

 

[sommone]

It's funny how things change. 150 years ago, Lady Eizabeth Bowes Lyon would not have been considered suitable as a royal match- yet we now remember her as the Matriarch of British Royal Family. now, almost 100 years after her birth, there are women marrying into royalty who wouldn't have been deemed suitable 20 years ago.
I think royal-commoner marriages were probably inevitable, and is actually a good thing, particularly for the bloodlines. You can only marry your cousins for so long.
I don't think we will know for another 5-10 years or so whether or not it was a successful experiment. I certainly hope it is, because I don't think certain royal families, can afford to have their crown princes divorce. Denmark and the Netherlands could probably get away with it, if it was handled properly, but I don't think the Norwegian and Spanish monarchies can afford a divorce.

As for a black person marrying into a European Royal family; As a black person, here is my opinion:

A black man definitely could not do it, even if he is Kofi Annan's son, a diplomat, a member of Mensa and holds a graduate degree from Harvard (Magna Cum laude). Perhaps that goes without saying. Can you imagine the reaction in Sweden if Crown Princess Victoria presented the above black man as her fiancee? (are you scared yet? ;-) )I think that both Carl Gustaf and Silvia would probably have to be heavily sedated.

As for a black woman, well, there are quite a few African Princesses around, and we didn't see the Princes rushing there looking for royal spouses, did we? I think it is possible that in the next 50 years or so a crown prince may fall in love and marry a black woman. However, that woman would have to have the same qualifications as the black man above, and god help her if she makes a mistake. She will have even less margin for error than our friend Mary.

Hello, Jamerican, and welcome to TRF. I'm just wondering if there will be any monarchies left in the next 50 years. It will be interesting to see.

 

[bigheadshirmp]

Hello, Jamerican, and welcome to TRF. I'm just wondering if there will be any monarchies left in the next 50 years. It will be interesting to see.

i wonder that tooo....i think the first monachy to be challenged will probably be the British one....can you imagine after QEII dies (which is likely to happen in less than 50 years time considering the queen is already 80 years old this year)...Charles becomes King...and guess what you are going to call Camillia now! I think that's going to be controversial at that time..

 

[Smilla]

i wonder that tooo....i think the first monachy to be challenged will probably be the British one....can you imagine after QEII dies (which is likely to happen in less than 50 years time considering the queen is already 80 years old this year)...Charles becomes King...and guess what you are going to call Camillia now! I think that's going to be controversial at that time..

I think the storm about Camilla will have died down by that time. She'll be gracious, elegant, and queenly, and she'll be accepted as such. The palace won't have to call her "queen", either, which would minimize controversy. I think the British monarchy has become quite stable after the annus horribilis, so Camilla won't topple it over.

 

[lokini]

Marriage to commoners bring up a very difficult situation. The upside of a royal marrying a royal is that both know the score in that they have been trained to the role they would assume from birth. With a commoner, there is no such treatment and it must be a difficult transition. Yes, you become royal and famous, but the payback for such glamorous lifestyle is the unforgiving scrutiny of the entire nation and the world. One minor misstep and you could be portrayed as the most uneducated royal.

On the otherhand, having a spouse from "the other side of the fence" could be a refreshing air to the monarchy. For instance, the marriage of Princess Diana invigorated the outlook of the British Royal Family and endeared them to the public for showing them as human. Princess Grace of Monaco also infused the country with a new vitality that was missing before her marriage to Rainier. And she was not only a commoner, but a foreign actress, as well!

The key, I think, is how well royal advisers and coaches train the commoner for their new status. If they have trained them well like with Princess Alexandra and Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, the transition would be cushioned. The alternative would be like Crown Princess Masako of Japan and Prince Consort Henrik of Denmark where they had a difficult time adjusting to the sometimes unreasonable constraints brought upon by being a part of the royal family.

Princess Diana was not a commoner she was daughter of a Count

 

[lokini]

discussion

Noor's family was wealthy (upper middle class at least) and prominent however. She did not come from a middle class upbringing as Mary or Mette-Marit did. Noor's father also had some dealings with King Hussein - that is how she met him when she was very young. Through a business trip she accompanied her father on.

Maxima also came from a wealthy and prominent family. You cannot compare Maxima and Noor to Mary and Mette-Marit.

Noor's last name was Halaby ans she was from lebanese descent.....
and well Maxima and Mary come from upper families in their countries (maybe not because of the money but for education)
not the same with Mette Marit that was scandalous, to say the least.

 

[lokini]

Maximas Dad

"As for a black person marrying into a European Royal family; As a black person, here is my opinion:

A black man definitely could not do it, even if he is Kofi Annan's son, a diplomat, a member of Mensa and holds a graduate degree from Harvard (Magna Cum laude). Perhaps that goes without saying. Can you imagine the reaction in Sweden if Crown Princess Victoria presented the above black man as her fiancee? (are you scared yet? ;-) )I think that both Carl Gustaf and Silvia would probably have to be heavily sedated.

As for a black woman, well, there are quite a few African Princesses around, and we didn't see the Princes rushing there looking for royal spouses, did we? I think it is possible that in the next 50 years or so a crown prince may fall in love and marry a black woman. However, that woman would have to have the same qualifications as the black man above, and god help her if she makes a mistake. She will have even less margin for error than our friend Mary.[/quote]"

that was a quote

It is important to know that Maxima's father was NOT involved in any death he was a minister in that goverment and Minister of Agricultural affairs... that's a completely different thing it may be controversial but its different ...

and yes, Id love to see a black woman or blanck man in European Royalty. People in Europe pay taxes so these people can live like princess and prince, King and Queen and if they can pick up Letizia's and Mette Marit's they can certainly pick up well educated/with a princess alike past black woman.

 

[Cathérine Bergeyck]

As for a black person marrying into a European Royal family; As a black person, here is my opinion:

A black man definitely could not do it, even if he is Kofi Annan's son, a diplomat, a member of Mensa and holds a graduate degree from Harvard (Magna Cum laude). Perhaps that goes without saying. Can you imagine the reaction in Sweden if Crown Princess Victoria presented the above black man as her fiancee? (are you scared yet? ;-) )I think that both Carl Gustaf and Silvia would probably have to be heavily sedated.

Where do you get this silly idea?? Of course it would be perfectly posible. You seem to have the idea that Europe is a racist continent. We're not more or less than others, and a black prince or princess would be perfectly possible.

As for a black woman, well, there are quite a few African Princesses around, and we didn't see the Princes rushing there looking for royal spouses, did we? I think it is possible that in the next 50 years or so a crown prince may fall in love and marry a black woman. However, that woman would have to have the same qualifications as the black man above, and god help her if she makes a mistake. She will have even less margin for error than our friend Mary.

The same nonsense.... Mary is only criticized on this board, not in Denmark, please make a difference between this forum and the real world.

It is important to know that Maxima's father was NOT involved in any death he was a minister in that goverment and Minister of Agricultural affairs... that's a completely different thing it may be controversial but its different ...

Maxima's father was part of a government that killed thousands of people. He knew perfectly well what was going on. He did not react against it. He did not give up his job. Then he's responsable too.

and yes, Id love to see a black woman or blanck man in European Royalty. People in Europe pay taxes so these people can live like princess and prince, King and Queen and if they can pick up Letizia's and Mette Marit's they can certainly pick up well educated/with a princess alike past black woman.[/quote]