Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles

[Denville]

And now Daniel has married into the royal families of Europe.
So, he and Victoria are now equally royal!

No, not in the sense I meant it. Bernadotte became king almost 200 years ago, and his offspring married into the RFs of euroepe, so Victoria has that blood from many royal ancestors.

 

[Lee-Z]

I would still make a distinction though between marriage with the "upper middle-class" (or "patrician class" as signified more by wealth rather than birth), which IMHO includes people like Kate, Chris O'Neill or Máxima, who would normally be in the same social circles as royals these days, and marriage to others who, without intending to sound pedantic, would be normally seen as being definitely of lower social standing, as was the case with some recent royal marriages in Norway and Sweden.
.

Hadn't really thought about it, but imo you have a good point making this distinction. F.i. in the NL where the difference between "classes" is very small (if even at all existant anymore), the commoners that married in the RF are definitely not from a "low income" background, but are actually from quite well to do families, f.i. policians (on national or european level).
And indeed, they would nowadays mingle in the same circles as royals, so it's no surprise that marriages occur.

 

[Suzzanah]

Marriage is about a contract between two persons to be wed. All have their problems but marriage with love and monetary privilege is always a blessing. The key is that the two people work at it so they get what they want out of it. When bloodline is an issue there are ways to get the match you want in most cases. If not children can be planned in advance. The thing most important is financial stability in this unchanging world. Perhaps marriage should be more about compatible monetary policy and work schedules. When in doubt order you spouse with at least as much thought as your dinner or sandwich.

 

[Denville]

Unchanging world? I'm not srue what you mean but this world is very much changing...

 

[Kitty1224]

Grace Kelly became more royal than the royals. She just had something in her. She transformed into a popular European princess.

 

[victoriaalix]

Marriages between Royals and non-Royals/non-Nobility

Marriages between Royals and non-Royals or non-Nobility has become common these days (eg. the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge who btw, are already nine years into their marriage and the marriage between the present King and Queen of Spain) with most royal families being more open to allowing its members to marry anyone outside of royalty/nobility as long as they have a good background.

From what I know, this "good background" means the potential spouse hasn't done anything of moral turpitude, has finished a tertiary-level education and has a stable job/stable finances at the very least. However, I think those are only a few of the criteria for a non-royal/non-noble to marry into a royal family. There could be more to that.

What are the common things that makes the non-royal/non-nobility spouse of a royal eligible for marriage to their spouse?

and

How does each reigning house determine if a non-royal/non-nobility person makes a suitable spouse for its members?

 

[victor1319]

From what I know, this "good background" means the potential spouse hasn't done anything of moral turpitude, has finished a tertiary-level education and has a stable job/stable finances at the very least.

Where did you get these ideas from? I am not a real expert for these matters, but the future King of Sweden, Daniel, was the personal trainer of the Crown Princess, her hobby so to say... And only after their relationship became "serious", he became a fitness "entrepreneur"... also Barman Jack comes to mind... partygirl Mette...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But Kei Komuro, boyfriend of Japanese princess Mako, is considered ineligible to marry her largely because of his mother's financial issue.

 

[Somebody]

From what I know, this "good background" means the potential spouse hasn't done anything of moral turpitude, has finished a tertiary-level education and has a stable job/stable finances at the very least. However, I think those are only a few of the criteria for a non-royal/non-noble to marry into a royal family. There could be more to that.

What are the common things that makes the non-royal/non-nobility spouse of a royal eligible for marriage to their spouse?

and

How does each reigning house determine if a non-royal/non-nobility person makes a suitable spouse for its members?

I agree with victor1319 that these qualifications don't seem to apply:
- Hasn't done anything of moral turpitude: I guess that depends on your definition, but Mette-Marit's confessed drug use and a child from a previous relationship did raise questions in Norway; posing semi-naked as Sofia of Sweden did could be considered questionable as well. And a few decades ago being divorced would be a disqualify factor.
- Finished Tertiary-level education: Mette-Marit of Norway didn't, Sofia of Sweden didn't (I am not sure how Daniel's Lillsved Sports Folk High School qualifies (probably 'further education' (instead of 'higher education')?); and I cannot find anything about Ari Behn's tertiary education qualifications)
- Stable job/finances: again, I don't think Mette-Marit qualifies. While Catherine was financially stable in terms of family background, there is a reason she was deemed 'waity katie' (and even lazy katie)

(Neither of the above apply to Tessy either but Louis gave up his rights to the throne, so I wouldn't count her in)

I guess a criminal past would still bar you from entering almost any royal family but not much else it seems (in some cases probably if you are not willing to officially change religious affiliation); although some countries are stricter than others. For example, in the Netherlands Friso was removed from the line of succession upon marriage because they hadn't been open about Mabel's contact with a Dutch famous criminal.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If I understand victoriaalix's post correctly, she is referring to spouses who would be accepted into "most" royal families, and the fact that a spouse was indeed accepted into (for example) the royal family of Sweden does not necessarily prove that they would be accepted into the royal family of Dubai or Brunei, for example.

 

[LadyFinn]

Where did you get these ideas from? I am not a real expert for these matters, but the future King of Sweden, Daniel, was the personal trainer of the Crown Princess, her hobby so to say... And only after their relationship became "serious", he became a fitness "entrepreneur"... also Barman Jack comes to mind... partygirl Mette...

I don't think that Daniel will be the King of Sweden. And Daniel started a gym, Master Training in 1999, together with a colleague, long before he met Victoria. In 2004 Daniel was the ceo and main owner of Master Training with 70 %. In 2006, he started another gym company, Balance, where he was also the ceo and main owner.

 

[Somebody]

If I understand victoriaalix's post correctly, she is referring to spouses who would be accepted into "most" royal families, and the fact that a spouse was indeed accepted into (for example) the royal family of Sweden does not necessarily prove that they would be accepted into the royal family of Dubai or Brunei, for example.

The royal families of the world are so different, that it would be hard to say what would be acceptable for 'most' royal families.

Some royal families would require the spouse to convert to Islam, most won't.
Some royal families might discourage divorced future spouses, others have accepted them (or remarried after divorce themselves).
Some royal families prefer foreigners, others prefer nationals.
Some royal families require future brides to dance almost naked in public; others would think that improper.
Some royal families would be fine with 'living together' before marriage, others would not.
Some royal families think marriage should only take place if the couple is in love, others care more about connections.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Where did you get these ideas from? I am not a real expert for these matters, but the future King of Sweden, Daniel, was the personal trainer of the Crown Princess, her hobby so to say... And only after their relationship became "serious", he became a fitness "entrepreneur"... also Barman Jack comes to mind... partygirl Mette...

If by "Barman Jack" you are referring to Jack Brooksbank. husband to Princess Eugenie...well..it's not quite as it seems. Google the man's family and background. Or even better check out the thread here on his family.

He is as close to being an aristocrat as one can be....without actually being one.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The royal families of the world are so different, that it would be hard to say what would be acceptable for 'most' royal families.

Some royal families would require the spouse to convert to Islam, most won't.
Some royal families might discourage divorced future spouses, others have accepted them (or remarried after divorce themselves).
Some royal families prefer foreigners, others prefer nationals.
Some royal families require future brides to dance almost naked in public; others would think that improper.
Some royal families would be fine with 'living together' before marriage, others would not.
Some royal families think marriage should only take place if the couple is in love, others care more about connections.

That is quite true. It is widely claimed that the practices of European monarchies are representative of monarchies universally, but as some of your examples illustrate, that is frequently not true.

Today, royals marry non-royals, because their scope is limited to a few at best, no one is trying to gain territory or make some sort of a armed alliance, with a marriage. They marry people they care about and get past the nonsense of the past.

Arranged marriages for political reason was very much the norm during earlier periods of history and the "bride" brought land, wealth, political alliances to the "groom" through marriage. Sometimes, believe it or not, a marriage could prevent a war.

I agree with the second post. That political marriage alliances between monarchies are obsolete in most parts of the world does not mean that they were always "nonsense" in the past - as Osipi points out, they were capable of bringing an end to wars.

I'm glad to see that regent Crown Princes/Princesses are marrying for love and more importantly, when they want.

In Europe, recent Crown Princes have married at much the same ages, so I am inclined believe that there actually are strict expectations as to "when" they ought to marry.

 

[Somebody]

In Europe, recent Crown Princes have married at much the same ages, so I am inclined believe that there actually are strict expectations as to "when" they ought to marry.

I was intrigued by this comment, so decided to look it up (and included the 'crown princes' who became king in the last decade and the only crown princess).

Albert of Monaco: 53 (considered way too old but found a bride who was young enough)
Philippe of Belgium: 39 (considered old and many had given up hope)
Felipe of Spain: 36
Frederick of Denmark: 35 (turning 36 that same month)
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands: 34
Victoria of Sweden: 32 (turning 33 the next month)
Guillaume of Luxembourg: 30 (turning 31 the next month)
William of the UK: 28
Haakon of Norway: 28
Alois of Liechtenstein: 25

I'd say there mostly is an 'upper limit' on when they should get married; as they are expected to 'produce' a heir and a large age difference is somewhat frowned upon. So, if they haven't married yet, mid-thirties is the time to tie the knot... People might be a little weary if they marry earlier than their late 20's - but that's still about a 10 year window; and there are sufficient royals defying that 'expectation'. All in all, it seems quite comparable to the society at large.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I was intrigued by this comment, so decided to look it up (and included the 'crown princes' who became king in the last decade and the only crown princess).

Albert of Monaco: 53 (considered way too old but found a bride who was young enough)
Philippe of Belgium: 39 (considered old and many had given up hope)
Felipe of Spain: 36
Frederick of Denmark: 35 (turning 36 that same month)
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands: 34
Victoria of Sweden: 32 (turning 33 the next month)
Guillaume of Luxembourg: 30 (turning 31 the next month)
William of the UK: 28
Haakon of Norway: 28
Alois of Liechtenstein: 25

I'd say there mostly is an 'upper limit' on when they should get married; as they are expected to 'produce' a heir and a large age difference is somewhat frowned upon. So, if they haven't married yet, mid-thirties is the time to tie the knot... People might be a little weary if they marry earlier than their late 20's - but that's still about a 10 year window; and there are sufficient royals defying that 'expectation'. All in all, it seems quite comparable to the society at large.

Thank you for posting the numbers! My comment was made from contemplating the window in which they would be eligible to marry, in comparison to the ages at which they chose to marry in reality. As far as I know, all European countries permit marriages by age 18, with no upper age limit, and as most European royals seem to live into their 80s, that results in a 60+ year window in which they could theoretically marry, compared to the 11-year window in which most of them did marry (excluding the oldest and youngest from your list). Of course, as you said, the expectations may apply to society at large rather than being specific to royals.

 

[victor1319]

I once did read a book about the parents of the supermodel Veruschka, aka Vera Gräfin (Countess) von Lehndorff-Steinort.

The parents were in the resistance against Hitler.

But this is not the point here! One Countess of Lehndorff, way back then, married a Prince of Mecklenburg; from there a daughter married into the Royal Danish family and from there the bloodline went into the whole upper strata of high royalty.

I would like to call this a system of proven winners. The daughter from the Baron marries into the Count's - If all goes well, from there into the strata of "princely" princes, so to say, and from there into real royalty.

And this system of proven winners worked quite well for centuries! Of course, as we know, it did not stop the spreading of haemophilia and dyslexia in the highest royalty since the middle of the 19th century. But back than it was some kind of politically motivated inbreeding.

Today it is no longer about proven winners, bu it seems to be more about LOVE! Is this good or bad? Time will tell! It is much more romantic for sure!

But in my personal opinion: I would have welcomed, if for example Victoria of Sweden would haven fallen in love with a poor Prince or Count. Or Felipe of Spain with a Princess or Countess. Prince William...

Some noble girls, to close the circle here, belong to the most beautiful in the world, like back then Veruschka, aka Vera Gräfin (Countess) von Lehndorff-Steinort!

 

[victoriaalix]

Where did you get these ideas from? I am not a real expert for these matters, but the future King of Sweden, Daniel, was the personal trainer of the Crown Princess, her hobby so to say... And only after their relationship became "serious", he became a fitness "entrepreneur"... also Barman Jack comes to mind... partygirl Mette...

Those would be exceptions to the norm of who is considered a potential royal spouse with a "good background". Sure, it's already the 21st century, royal families are now more lenient on who gets to marry in. However, people still manage to criticize non-nobles who marry into Royal Families over their background. There's Kate who got criticized because her work experience prior to joining The Firm wasn't "that impressive" for a person who is not nobility and is trying to marry into the British Royal Family (whereas if she had a nobility background like Princess Diana, they would have been more forgiving about it). Recently, even Meghan got criticized over being an actress prior to marrying Prince Harry.

These standards are based on what I know about the non-nobles who married into royal families, particularly those who married into the British and Spanish ones.

There are differences on how each royal family decides which non-noble gets to marry into their family but there are probably similarities to their rules on that too and those are the I asked about. Some royal families may be more lenient, others may be more strict.

 

[Countessmeout]

The criticism of Kate's work history had nothing to do with her being a commoner. She was applauded for being a commoner by many, the whole Cinderella story quite popular now for people watching royal weddings.

If Kate had been as young as Diana when she got engaged, maybe no one would have blinked. But a 28 year old who spent less then a year as an accessories buyer and then is said to have worked 'for mom and dad' in an undisclosed position? When you go into an interview, any blanks on your resume are red flags. Kate's had gaping holes. If she had been actively involved in charity (other then attending then charity ball) or still studying, people would have looked over it easier then not.

Even among the aristocratic royal brides of this generation, most of them have a descent resume. Countess Mathilde (future Queen Mathilde) was a speech therapist for a number of years. Countess Stephanie de Lannoy worked with an investment company in Brussels after completing her masters degree. Heck even Diana had worked in a nursery school and as a cleaner for all her young age when she got engaged.

For most people the time when women went to college 'to find a husband' and then waited for a ring died a few decades ago. Even among the previous generation most of the royal brides worked before marriage.

Unfortunately the image was painted of Kate as 'waiting for the ring', living in a flat paid for by her parents, and available to William.


While most people are all for the modern royals, marrying commoners for love and not titles and so on. With that goes the thought, or at least hope the women are modern as well. Women with careers or life themselves, a work ethic and drive they bring with them to the job.


The current batch of heir's spouses, and new queens include:

-Maxima-masters in economics, worked in banking prior to marriage

-Letizia: masters in journalism. Worked in broadcast news prior to marriage

-Mathilde: completed a masters after marriage. Was a speech therapist

-Mary: degree in advertising. Worked in accounts management

-Daniel: no big education, but he did run his own personal training business

-Stephanie: masters in literature. Worked for an investment firm

-Charlene: Olympic swimmer


Heck even Camilla worked as a secretary before her first marriage. Really the only Crown Princess with a rocky resume is Mette Marit who worked as a waitress prior to her meeting Haakon.

Seems really: Love, not too many skeletons in the closet and young enough to have a few heirs are really the only requirements now a days in a wife.

 

[Nordic]

-Mary: degree in advertising.

Bachelor of Commerce and Bachelor of Law

 

[victor1319]

If by "Barman Jack" you are referring to Jack Brooksbank. husband to Princess Eugenie...well..it's not quite as it seems. Google the man's family and background. Or even better check out the thread here on his family.

He is as close to being an aristocrat as one can be....without actually being one.

Yeah, but the thread here in the forums is a bit vague. It is claimed there, that he is a distant relative of Eugenie - True, but on her mother's side!
https://www.businessinsider.com/how...-jack-brooksbank-are-related-2018-1?r=DE&IR=T

 

[tausi]

I think Kate was at a disadvantage position. Anything she did back then before marriage people would have criticize her as pretending to be a royal or using royal connection.
She is obviously smart and working for a family firm is not a bad thing. It afforded her the privacy she needed during the time she was followed by paparazzi more than anyone else (except Diana, May be)

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

HM Queen Máxima of the Netherlands née Zorreguieta Cerruti - Economy (Buenos Aires), worked as banker for Deutsche Bank (New York) before marriage

HRH Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau née Wisse Smit - Economy and Political Science (Amsterdam), was director of Open Society Institute, an international lobbying organisation (Brussels) before marriage

HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands née Brinkhorst - Political Sciences (London) and Journalism (Berkeley), was in the Board of BMSG Adamson Worldwide (London) before marriage

HRH Princess Anne-Marie de Bourbon de Parme née Guáltherie van Weezel - Law (Utrecht), Journalism (Virginia), International Law (Shanghai and Sydney), worked as parliamentary editor for the Dutch Public Broadcasting Corporation (The Hague) before marriage

Tjalling ten Cate (husband of HRH Princess Margarita de Bourbon de Parme) - Law, specialisation Financial Law (Amsterdam), worked as juridical expert for the Netherlands Central Bank (Amsterdam), specialized in the financial integrity of trust offices, before marriage

HRH Princess Viktória de Bourbon de Parme née Cservenyák - International Law (Utrecht), Master of Business Administration (Amsterdam), worked as juridical expert corporate law for Rabobank (Utrecht) before marriage

Albert Brenninkmeijer (husband of HRH Princess Carolina de Bourbon de Parme) - Master of Business Administration (Oxford), worked as member of the Board of the French headquarters (Paris) of his family company C&A

 

[paola]

All of Queen (now Princess) Beatrix's and her sister's (Princess Margriet's) sons married commoners (albeit all wealthy) who all had a college education and are confident, strong women. All of these marriages appear to be solid. I think maturity, intellect, and common sense are traits needed for a commoner to comprehend what they are realistically getting into before marrying into royalty, especially those who are now Queen Consorts and Queen Consorts in waiting.

And they had a good example: Prof. Mr. Pieter van Vollenhoven.

He has become 81 years old today.

 

[Denville]

Yeah, but the thread here in the forums is a bit vague. It is claimed there, that he is a distant relative of Eugenie - True, but on her mother's side!
https://www.businessinsider.com/how...-jack-brooksbank-are-related-2018-1?r=DE&IR=T

He probably is.. upper classes are generally related...

 

[Moonmaiden23]

The reason I singled out Jack Brooksbank is to show that he is not just some random bartender who married the Queen of England's granddaughter.

There is no way Prince Andrew would have allowed that.

 

[Somebody]

Yeah, but the thread here in the forums is a bit vague. It is claimed there, that he is a distant relative of Eugenie - True, but on her mother's side!
https://www.businessinsider.com/how...-jack-brooksbank-are-related-2018-1?r=DE&IR=T

Him being related to Eugenie is not really relevant in whether he is 'almost noble'. He clearly is part of the untitled gentry (as was Sarah); his family holds a baronetcy and he is in line to that baronetcy (although the chances of him ever getting it are extremely small).

 

[Denville]

The reason I singled out Jack Brooksbank is to show that he is not just some random bartender who married the Queen of England's granddaughter.

There is no way Prince Andrew would have allowed that.

I don't see that it would be up to Andrew..

 

[MsLeonie]

I don't see that it would be up to Andrew..

Agreed. Eugenie marrying any rich, connected man should have made Andrew happy. It takes some financial burden off him. Also, at the time of Eugenie's marriage, Andrew already knew his name was in the FBI files relative to Epstein. Eugenie was certainly luckier than her poor sister Bea.

 

[Denville]

Agreed. Eugenie marrying any rich, connected man should have made Andrew happy. It takes some financial burden off him. Also, at the time of Eugenie's marriage, Andrew already knew his name was in the FBI files relative to Epstein. Eugenie was certainly luckier than her poor sister Bea.

I meant that its not up to Andrew who the York girls marry. They are both well over 18 and he can hardly forbid the nuptials for either of them. Beside they have their own money.. He pay for security for them.. but he may go on doing that.