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  #341  
Old 06-22-2015, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
So if Stephanie being a countess brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law why the emphasis on lineage?

If Crown Princess Mary was born a Serene Highness I can't imagine her being any more successful than she is now.
You are applying logic (A + B = C) for an institute which is profoundly logic. It is the same as saying "We want a modern monarchy". If you want to be 'modern', go for a presidency, thát is modern, giving any citizen a say.

The handful monarchies which are still apparent in Europe make an appeal on the underbelly, on sentiments. Would thay make an appeal on logica, they would be scrapped immediately.

Right because they apply on the sentiment, they have to beware what makes then different, special, connected to the nation's and Europe's glorious past. When a Dylan Jansen from Eindhoven falls in love with The Princess of Orange and becomes His Royal Highness Prince Dylan of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, then this is the end, then even die-hard monarchists will have a difficult time to swallow. Maybe Dylan will manage it, but the core base of the monarchy, that the kid of Dylan Jansen becomes the Sovereign...

Once again, it is not mathematics. It is not A + B = C. Imagine that Crown Princess Victoria had engaged with Jean-Christophe Bonaparte, Prince Napoléon. (Picture: Prince Jean-Christophe with his sister Princess Caroline and his mother Princess Béatrice de Bourbon-Deux Siciles). Everyone will understand that it would have added a whole new dimension to the Royal House of Sweden. Anyway, for me a Prince Napoléon speaks more to my imagination than a Sofia Hellqvist or am I a "male chauvinist pig" again, as I was labelled a few pages ago?

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  #342  
Old 06-22-2015, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
What hasn't been mentioned (i think) and what might indeed *be* a factor in the reign of a royal family is their heritage as far as actually coming *from* the country they reign.
At least in the Netherlands, if you read comments of people wanting to get rid of the monarchy afaik the argument that the Queen is a commoner has never been used, but what has been used and comes up regularly in those circles is that the Dutch RF is only for a small part actually dutch (and P.Amalia will be even less so than her dad is).

At least P.Estelle, who is mentioned a lot here as "daughter of a personal trainer", is more than 50% actually swedish; in some countries that may come to be greater effect to the continuation of the royalty than the completely blue bloodline
I think very, very few in the Netherlands can claim that the official registers go back to 1403 to see that a Nassau married in Breda and the family has since then played a prominent role in the Netherlands, until the day of today. Very, very few Dutchmen can. At the same time, until recently, it was almost impossible for any member of any royal family to find an "equal partner" in the own country, it was also seen as "not desirable" that a subject became related to the Sovereign ánd in some monarchies (like Sweden) it was even not allowed to marry a fellow Swede. So Dutchies claiming that the royal family is not Dutch enough (eeeh... Mabel, Laurentien, Ànne-Marie, Tjalling, Albert, Marilène, Anita, Aimée, etc. etc....) are just talking pub-trash.
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  #343  
Old 06-22-2015, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Stephanie de Lannoy has been married to the HGD of Luxembourg for approximately 30 months. She has accompanied her husband on numerous overseas economic missions to learn the crucial role of her tiny adopted country on the world stage which is frankly...economy/finance. She has done few engagements on her own-perhaps two or three, but is slowly increasing them.

The citizens of the Grand Duchy have invariably described her as charming, polite and unassuming, and highly intelligent.

Most impressively imo within only a year of her wedding she had completely mastered the difficult Luxembourgish dialect, no mean feat when you consider that Charlene of Monaco can't manage basic French after a decade, Mary of Denmark's Danish is reportedly atrocious after the same amount of time, and Kate Cambridge apparently hasn't even bothered with the language of the Principality whose name she will bear someday, Welsh.

Stephanie has had the manners and breeding not to give her fellow countrymen numerous unwanted glimpses of her bare rear end by stubbornly refusing to realize that gusty winds and lack of underwear are not a good mix. She has not helped herself to excess holidays and extra kitchens for her home(s) at taxpayer expense.

My question to YOU Rudolph is that other than dressing fashionably what were ANY of these women doing to "take the Royal world by storm" after only 2-3 years of marriage?
You posed the question. I gave you one example. As much as I like Stephanie, she has not accomplished as much as some of her counterparts. This is probably a decision that lies with the Grand Ducal family, however, one patronage, a handful of trips does not equate the same as to the level of work CP Mary has done.

And Mary, Letizia, Maxima have taken the royal world by storm because they made their Royal family more relevant to the everyday person. Having an aristocratic or royal lineage isn't required to marry into a Royal family anymore. As many have stated before, a Royal family will not fall due to commoners marrying into it, but because the general population believe they are not required.

On a side note: learning languages is hard. Princess Charlene may not find French easy to learn. The Duchess of Cambridge may never become the Princess of Wales if the future King Charles does not bestow the title of Prince of Wales on his son. She may be the Duchess of Cambridge and Cornwall until her husband ascends the throne.
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  #344  
Old 06-22-2015, 09:07 AM
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Princess Stephanie has also not been married nearly as long as any of her counterparts. How can she have reasonably accomplished as much as Mary, Letizia, Maxima...every one of them has had 10+ years to take the Royal world by storm whatever that even means. It's frankly absurd to compare the accomplishments of someone who has been married a couple of years to someone who has had over a DECADE to make her mark.

By all accounts, the citizens of the Grand Duchy are very proud of Stephanie according to a documentary that was produced about her in Luxembourg in June 2013. She picked up their difficult dialect in an amazingly short time. She has attracted none of the adverse publicity in Luxembourg that Mary and Kate have received due to clothes spending and excess holidays. Until she became queen last year Letizia seemed to struggle with her image and her press and had not taken even Spain by storm, let alone the entire Royal world.

If you are referring to public engagements she has attended, last year Luxarazzi listed data detailing first public appearances for each woman-commoner and noble who had married into a Royal family.

Luxarazzi : Stéphanie's First Solo Engagement

Less than a month after her wedding she accompanied Guillaume to the People's Republic of China on an economic mission, and her first solo engagement was roughly about the same point as when Letizia of Spain made hers...two years after marriage.

Especially when you take into account the size and population of the Grand Duchy in comparison to Denmark and the others and the fact that Luxembourg is a prosperous, small country with very few of the social and economic problems of the others, Stephanie's workload since her marriage has been more than adequate.(And for the record, she has more than one patronage as the information I gave you confirmed.)

As for the fact that she is childless, I am a woman whose inability to bear a biological child of my own has been one of the great heartaches of my life. I am not about to reproach Stephanie or ANY woman for that. Hopefully her situation will not be the same of mine.

As for learning languages? No it's not hard if you've had years and years and access to the best resources and instructors! Unless she has a learning disability there is no excuse for Charlene not being very fluent in French at this point but at least Charlene at least UNDERSTANDS French even if she can't hold a conversation. What does the fact that Kate may never be princess of Wales have to do with her not taking the initiative to learn Welsh? Or Spanish or French? She is the only Royal princess in Europe besides Charlene who is not at least bi-lingual. Considering the education Kate was given and her position as future queen, that implies either lack of motivation or indifference, or a combination of the two.

Stephanie might not be better than her peers at this very early point in her public career, but she is certainly not worse than any of them either.
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  #345  
Old 06-22-2015, 09:52 AM
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I think it's wrong of people to assume Stephanie is childless because she wants to be. I have a SIL who is unable to have children, plus we are Catholic, there have been some hurtful comments/questions directed to both she and my BIL about it.

Really people need to just mind their own beeswax and when did it become okay to comment about people's private details like that?

I have friends with large families who have had complete strangers walk up to them in a store (their kids all in tow) and make comments about them being irresponsible or 'don't they know what causes that' etc etc.

I'm not that old...but it seems that nowdays people don't respect privacy like they used to when I was growing up.


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  #346  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Stephanie might not be better than her peers at this very early point in her public career, but she is certainly not worse than any of them either.
Earlier in the thread you were holding up Stephanie's aristocratic background as evidence she is more suited to her role than other Crown Princesses.

Given the current Grand Duchess is a commoner it is an odd stance to take. The success of Mary, Maxima et al makes its clear being an aristocrat isn't a prerequisite to marring a royal.

Its only been your last few comments that you've backed away from this position and stated Stephanie isn't any better.
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  #347  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

As for learning languages? No it's not hard if you've had years and years and access to the best resources and instructors! Unless she has a learning disability there is no excuse for Charlene not being very fluent in French at this point but at least Charlene at least UNDERSTANDS French even if she can't hold a conversation. What does the fact that Kate may never be princess of Wales have to do with her not taking the initiative to learn Welsh? Or Spanish or French? She is the only Royal princess in Europe besides Charlene who is not at least bi-lingual. Considering the education Kate was given and her position as future queen, that implies either lack of motivation or indifference, or a combination of the two.
Generally speaking, the British Royal Family scores pretty low when it comes to speaking foreign languages. Queen Elizabeth II speaks French, but William for example, who may be king one day, doesn't speak any foreign language fluently as far as I know. That may be surprising for someone who attended Eton and the University of St. Andrews, but I guess it has to do with the fact that the British school system does not place a great importance in foreign languages. In fact, if I understand it correctly, one is not required to take a foreign language in secondary school and, in university, one only takes courses related to his/her chosen major, which normally does not involve foreign language requirements either. Having said that, William could (or maybe should ?) have received private tutoring or taken a foreign language as one of his A-level options at school.

Going back to the original discussion, Kate is not a crown princess yet, but she will be one day. Compared to other current or former crown princesses in the continent like Maxima, Mary, Mathilde, Stéphanie or Letizia, Kate is probably the least qualified in academic or professional terms .
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  #348  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
I think it's wrong of people to assume Stephanie is childless because she wants to be. I have a SIL who is unable to have children, plus we are Catholic, there have been some hurtful comments/questions directed to both she and my BIL about it.

Really people need to just mind their own beeswax and when did it become okay to comment about people's private details like that?

I have friends with large families who have had complete strangers walk up to them in a store (their kids all in tow) and make comments about them being irresponsible or 'don't they know what causes that' etc etc.

I'm not that old...but it seems that nowdays people don't respect privacy like they used to when I was growing up.


LaRae

I agree. Stéphanie's lack of issue so far is off-topic here. Luxembourg has plenty of people anyway to ascend the throne if, for some hypothetical reason, Guillaume and Stéphanie never have children of their own.
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  #349  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:30 AM
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I think the reason the British Royals don't put much emphasis on foreign languages is the empire and commonwealth were/are English speaking. I don't see too many American Presidents being multi lingual.

The only language other than English that was used by the BRF was German but that was because of family.

Kate is the first future Queen of England to hold a university degree. So she is certainly academically qualified. Lady Diana being 'noble' born didn't even pass her O levels despite sitting them twice.

As to the topic of the thread its clear being a noble or aristocratic doesn't give one a leg up over non aristocrats.
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  #350  
Old 06-22-2015, 11:03 AM
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Pierre Casiraghi , whose italien grandfather had no background , whose Father was lucky handsome and ambitious , married the Princess of Monaco because she was pregnent of him, enters in the illoustrisme Famille Borromeo.
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  #351  
Old 06-22-2015, 11:29 AM
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Since it's been stated that it's unfair to compare Stephanie to Mary, Maxima, etc. then I think the same holds true for Catherine. Not only is she not in the same position (Camilla is the next consort), but she's only been married 4 years. I imagine if you look at the accomplishments of any of the other women after 4 years, you'll find that they were still finding their footing in the royal world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Princess Stephanie has also not been married nearly as long as any of her counterparts. How can she have reasonably accomplished as much as Mary, Letizia, Maxima...every one of them has had 10+ years to take the Royal world by storm whatever that even means. It's frankly absurd to compare the accomplishments of someone who has been married a couple of years to someone who has had over a DECADE to make her mark.

By all accounts, the citizens of the Grand Duchy are very proud of Stephanie according to a documentary that was produced about her in Luxembourg in June 2013. She picked up their difficult dialect in an amazingly short time. She has attracted none of the adverse publicity in Luxembourg that Mary and Kate have received due to clothes spending and excess holidays. Until she became queen last year Letizia seemed to struggle with her image and her press and had not taken even Spain by storm, let alone the entire Royal world.

If you are referring to public engagements she has attended, last year Luxarazzi listed data detailing first public appearances for each woman-commoner and noble who had married into a Royal family.

Luxarazzi : Stéphanie's First Solo Engagement

Less than a month after her wedding she accompanied Guillaume to the People's Republic of China on an economic mission, and her first solo engagement was roughly about the same point as when Letizia of Spain made hers...two years after marriage.

Especially when you take into account the size and population of the Grand Duchy in comparison to Denmark and the others and the fact that Luxembourg is a prosperous, small country with very few of the social and economic problems of the others, Stephanie's workload since her marriage has been more than adequate.(And for the record, she has more than one patronage as the information I gave you confirmed.)

As for the fact that she is childless, I am a woman whose inability to bear a biological child of my own has been one of the great heartaches of my life. I am not about to reproach Stephanie or ANY woman for that. Hopefully her situation will not be the same of mine.

As for learning languages? No it's not hard if you've had years and years and access to the best resources and instructors! Unless she has a learning disability there is no excuse for Charlene not being very fluent in French at this point but at least Charlene at least UNDERSTANDS French even if she can't hold a conversation. What does the fact that Kate may never be princess of Wales have to do with her not taking the initiative to learn Welsh? Or Spanish or French? She is the only Royal princess in Europe besides Charlene who is not at least bi-lingual. Considering the education Kate was given and her position as future queen, that implies either lack of motivation or indifference, or a combination of the two.

Stephanie might not be better than her peers at this very early point in her public career, but she is certainly not worse than any of them either.
Has it been stated that Kate isn't trying to learn Welsh? It's not a language that she needs to speak regularly out in public, so we have no idea if she has been taking lessons. Nor do we know if she is trying to learn another language.

I don't think having an aristocratic background makes one qualified, or any more special than those born without a title. The so called commoners that have recently married into the royal families (Letizia, Mary, Daniel, Kate, Maxima, etc), all seem to be doing well for their respective houses. In fact, they have done just as well as their aristocratic counterparts.
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  #352  
Old 06-22-2015, 12:21 PM
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The Duchess of Cornwall

Does Camilla speak Welsh?
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  #353  
Old 06-22-2015, 12:36 PM
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A few words I think. Prince Charles had an Investiture ceremony at Caernarfon Castle in 1969 and received just enough instruction to be able to read out a prepared speech in Welsh. Even the Prince of Wales isn't fluent in Welsh despite decades in the role.
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  #354  
Old 06-22-2015, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Does Camilla speak Welsh?

I don't know, but I'd be surprised if she did. In fact, I don't think Charles speaks Welsh either. Keeping things in perspective though, only 20 % of population of Wales itself speaks Welsh as first language.

BTW, I know Charles got an A-Level in French at school with a grade C (not very stellar then), so I assume he must speak at least basic French . William's A-Levels were in geography , history of art and biology with grades A, B and C respectively, which makes him one of the best students in the Royal Family in recent times (compared e.g. to his father, brother and uncles), but far from academically gifted.

Also, on the topic of consorts, Camilla left school with O-levels only. In other words, she didn't even get a qualification that would have enabled her to apply to a university. Compared to Camilla, Kate's qualifications (a bachelor's degree in art history) are "outstanding".
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  #355  
Old 06-22-2015, 01:45 PM
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Yeees, but some of these comments were perhaps... slightly biased...
There are continuing and more objective analyzes of Mary's Danish in the DRF forum. - And not always that flattering.
There is also a You Tube video out there where Mary is giving a speech, not in Danish, and part way through she starts speaking Danish. That would seem to indicate that she is becoming much more adept in the language and is actually feeling like it is her language now.
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  #356  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Earlier in the thread you were holding up Stephanie's aristocratic background as evidence she is more suited to her role than other Crown Princesses.

Given the current Grand Duchess is a commoner it is an odd stance to take. The success of Mary, Maxima et al makes its clear being an aristocrat isn't a prerequisite to marring a royal.

Its only been your last few comments that you've backed away from this position and stated Stephanie isn't any better.
You are either confused or being blatantly dishonest Rudolph, because I've never said any such thing. The fact that I've asked you to locate the post where I ever even implied this and you have been unable to do so pretty much speaks for itself.

I have been passionately interested in history and genealogy since I could read. My interest in Stephanie de Lannoy and Diana Spencer and Royal spouses like them is therefore natural. Their antecedents had a role in events that changed the histories of their countries ( the Spencer-Churchills) and in the case of the deLannoys the entire continent of Europe. I find their connection to those dynasties fascinating.

Does this make these women better human beings more suited to their roles? Obviously not. (see Diana Spencer)Does it make me more interested in them as Royal spouses than I am in a Kate Middleton or a Mary Donaldson?

Yes it does, because I simply don't care about the Middletons or the Donaldsons, period.

Also when Stephanie's engagement to Guillaume was announced I felt it was a breath of fresh air. I was tired of controversial "Cinderella fiancées"(thank you Al-bina!). I was bored of druggie, shady backgrounds, embarrassing relatives, and decade long premarital shack-ups. A young, well educated, unglamorous and uncomplicated Royal fiancée from a prestigious and historically significant family was like a blast from the past and right up my alley, and I was thrilled. I still am.

That's as blunt as I know how to be, and you can rest assured it's not a stance I will be backing away from anytime soon.
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  #357  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

Does this make these women better human beings more suited to their roles? Obviously not. (See Diana Spencer)Does it make me more interested in them as Royal spouses than I am in a Kate Middleton or a Mary Donaldson?

Yes it does, because I simply don't care about the Middletons or the Donaldsons, period.

This is an interesting stance...

From a purely genealogical standpoint, I can understand how one might be more interested in Diana or Stephanie's family than Kate or Mary's. I'm not interested in the Middletons, but I am interested in the Spencers for this very reason.

But Diana, Stephanie, Kate, Mary, etc are more than just their family history. Personally, I wouldn't not be interested in an individual just because their family background wasn't the right sort; a royal spouse has the ability to be interesting and worth paying attention to all on their own even if they don't come from an aristocratic or royal background. Or they could be dull, despite coming from such a background.
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  #358  
Old 06-22-2015, 10:40 PM
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If you were a genealogist wouldn't it be more of a challenge to do Kate or Mary's family tree compared to someone like Diana who came from a well known family whose family tree was probably already well documented?


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Old 06-22-2015, 10:41 PM
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Ish, I have made no secret of my admiration for Maxima of the Netherlands. This brilliant, emotional, beautiful woman fascinates me. Same for Maria-Teresa of Luxembourg. I was leery of Daniel Westling before he married Victoria but his dignity and devotion has completely won me over.

Those are examples of commoners who have no genealogy that I am interested in, but that I am interested in more as human beings because I do find them compelling and beautiful.

Skippy the answer to your question is sure, maybe, but from the standpoint of European history why would I want to or even care?
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Old 06-22-2015, 11:09 PM
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If you were a genealogist wouldn't it be more of a challenge to do Kate or Mary's family tree compared to someone like Diana who came from a well known family whose family tree was probably already well documented?


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It depends on how you approach it.

I spent the better part of 8 months working on a chart that detailed the ancestry of Prince George of Cambridge, going back something like 70 generations. Doing his mother's line took at most a week because there is so little information available to the public without doing some serious digging. Another couple of weeks was spent formatting the chart itself and organizing some of the data, as well as trying to reduce the inadvertent duplicates. The rest of that time, easily 7 months was just spent tracing George's very well known paternal ancestors.

To me, as an amateur genealogist, who's doing such a project in my own time for fun, I wouldn't want something more complicated than that, at least not in terms of studying the ancestry of someone just because they're famous. If I'm going to do serious digging then I'd rather it be for my own family tree.
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