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  #321  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Should the European monarchies fall, it will be predominantly for political reasons.
I cannot, even in my wildest dreams, imagine commoners marrying into the royal families would be a significant factor.
The behavior of the royals, yes. If the institution itself becomes too common, yes. Whom they marry, no way.
Indeed. There's no historical precedence. Of all the monarchies that have fallen through History none had a commoner turned royal in the main line, and yet all their royal consorts didn't prevent their demise.
If we go back to the 19th, early 20th century the royals started widening the marriage pool (a pool that was bigger in the early middle ages). There was no longer a need for political alliances and they started marrying into the nobility. Of course they wouldn't marry outside the royal or noble circle, they didn't have the chance to meet lowly commoners, many weren't educated, couldn't read or write, even their speech marked them as members of the lower classes. They had nothing in common.
But in the last decades royals go to school, to university, they go to the theatre, they sail, they mingle with many people, have different friends. And commoners also have chances they didn't have before. They go to university and many are more educated than the royals, they travel and learn foreign languages, they visit museums and attend the opera, they work and buy houses, cars, nice clothes...Now they can have a real relationship with a royal, they can share values and hobbies, they can spend time together, get to know each other and see if royal life is for them, they can fall in love.

Why would a noble, who's only noble because an ancestor in the 17th century did something great (or bought a title), or a deposed royal who doesn't know the language, the country, works like a commoner in a bank, and knows nothing of living in the royal fishbowl be a better consort than a commoner?

Then there are systems to check the suitability of a consort, checks that are also in place for possible royal or noble brides/grooms. (Mabel's history would have been equally problematic had she been a German princess) Approval of the Sovereign, the Government, Parliament...If someone is not deemed fit to represent that country, something's got to give. Sometimes the royals themselves are not fit to do any representing, so the choice of "unsuitable" consorts are a reflection on them more than anything else.

Of course this reasoning is only valid to those of us who think that royals are normal people in a special and historical system, a monarchy, that maintains a function and use in society and not those who believe in magic royal blood, diluted bloodlines or divine rights. Like someone already said, every royal has an ancestor that was once a commoner, some of them, like the Napoleons or the Bernadottes are relatively recent, but all were once commoners grabbing power.
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  #322  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Marty91charmed View Post
Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles
That is strictly subjective. For example if one happens to like the commoner better than the "blue blooded noble" then your automatic opinion is that they are doing the job better.

I can't think of any commoner spouse who-based on actual fact and not personal opinion-is outperforming an aristocratic one.

And for the record it's not a contest/competition, like the Olympics.

Al-bina, as is usually the case I agree with you 100%.
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  #323  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Moonmaiden23;1794717]That is strictly subjective. For example if one happens to like the commoner better than the "blue blooded noble" then your automatic opinion is that they are doing the job better.

And this opinion is most of the time based on little besides who you happen to like better and the often skewered rants you have read online and in the media. Not actual facts.


That's in part true... but some facts speak volumes IMO... and in some cases I have a neutral opinion on that royal...
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  #324  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post

I have been reading this thread for several days. The discussion is running in circles at this point. There are too many Cinderellas nowadays, who try hard to act like "aristos". The downgraded European bloodlines use saccharine PR campaigns to polish their tarnished heraldic symbols and market their new acquisitions.
Iam talking about official engagemennts and personality, not about some commoners playing the cinderella part... most of them are not cinderella at all... And I don't based my opinion only on media or pr machine, which often are contradictory...
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  #325  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:56 PM
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I've said it before but unless we have personally met these men and women or know someone who has, decided someone is or isn't doing a good job based on what we think their "personality" is is frankly as bogus as it gets.

I liked and admired Diana Spencer. Based on her photos and her press and her beautiful clothes I assumed that she was as angelic and uncomplicated as she appeared to be. And I believed the press who ASSUMED SHE WAS WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE ON THE OUTSIDE.

Diana's flawless outside appearance and dedication to her work caused me to form an opinion about her that turned out in the end to be completely wrong.

Don't judge a book by it's cover!
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  #326  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
That is strictly subjective. For example if one happens to like the commoner better than the "blue blooded noble" then your automatic opinion is that they are doing the job better.

I can't think of any commoner spouse who-based on actual fact and not personal opinion-is outperforming an aristocratic one.

And for the record it's not a contest/competition, like the Olympics.

Al-bina, as is usually the case I agree with you 100%.
So what does Stephanie bring to the table that makes her more suited to her role than Maria-Teresa? I'm genuinely curious

I mean if Stephanie wasn't a countess but everything else about her was the same would she be less qualified?

I've read comments from various royal watchers saying she hasn't exactly taken her role by storm despite being noble born
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  #327  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:15 PM
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Stephanie de Lannoy has been married to the HGD of Luxembourg for approximately 30 months. She has accompanied her husband on numerous overseas economic missions to learn the crucial role of her tiny adopted country on the world stage which is frankly...economy/finance. She has done few engagements on her own-perhaps two or three, but is slowly increasing them.

The citizens of the Grand Duchy have invariably described her as charming, polite and unassuming, and highly intelligent.

Most impressively imo within only a year of her wedding she had completely mastered the difficult Luxembourgish dialect, no mean feat when you consider that Charlene of Monaco can't manage basic French after a decade, Mary of Denmark's Danish is reportedly atrocious after the same amount of time, and Kate Cambridge apparently hasn't even bothered with the language of the Principality whose name she will bear someday, Welsh.

Stephanie has also had the manners and breeding not to give her fellow countrymen numerous unwanted glimpses of her bare rear end by stubbornly refusing to realize that gusty winds and lack of underwear are not a good mix. She has not helped herself to excess holidays and extra kitchens for her home(s) at taxpayer expense.

My question to YOU Rudolph is that other than dressing fashionably what were ANY of these women doing to "take the Royal world by storm" after only 2-3 years of marriage?

BTW, Stephanie in my opinion brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law and I never implied that she did. However as I also mentioned I don't think Stephanie would ever have the bad taste to hold a weepy whiny press conference to air her grievances with Maria-Teresa, as M-T did to her own mother-in-law Josephine Charlotte.
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  #328  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:19 PM
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A minor correction. Mary's Danish is not atrocious. She has a distinct accent but her general mastery of Danish is at a very high level.
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  #329  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:28 PM
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So if Stephanie being a countess brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law why the emphasis on lineage?

If Crown Princess Mary was born a Serene Highness I can't imagine her being any more successful than she is now.
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  #330  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:28 PM
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I stand corrected Muhler, as you would of course know better than I. I was referencing several Youtube videos where the comments by Danes was less than laudatory to put it mildly.

No one was impressed.
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  #331  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I stand corrected, as you would of course know better than I. I was referencing several Youtube videos where the comments by Danes was less than laudatory to put it mildly.

No one was impressed.
Yeees, but some of these comments were perhaps... slightly biased...
There are continuing and more objective analyzes of Mary's Danish in the DRF forum. - And not always that flattering.
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  #332  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
So if Stephanie being a countess brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law why the emphasis on lineage?

If Crown Princess Mary was born a Serene Highness I can't imagine her being any more successful than she is now.
I'd be much obliged if you could point me out to any posts where I insinuated otherwise or emphasized noble lineage?

As for the former Mary Donaldson she has a closet full of beautiful clothes that she wears flawlessly and that I would kill to have. Other than that I barely notice her, she simply does not interest me at all.

I did see a fascinating video of her online recently.

It had been taken shortly after she became engaged to Frederick. She had enrolled in a course called "MAKE ME A STAR!!" designed to teach her how to appear more poised, aristocratic or Royal I suppose. I was astonished at the sight of the future Queen of Denmark mincing around with her hands on her hips as if she was practicing for a beauty pageant.

It was fascinating, not to mention hilarious.
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  #333  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I'd be much obliged if you could point me out to any posts where I insisted otherwise or emphasized noble lineage?

As for the former Mary Donaldson she has a closet full of beautiful clothes that she wears flawlessly and that I would kill to have. Other than that I barely notice her, she simply does not interest me at all.

I did see a fascinating video of her online recently.

It had been taken shortly after she became engaged to Frederick. She had enrolled in a course called "MAKE ME A STAR!!" designed to teach her how to appear more poised, aristocratic or Royal I suppose. I was astonished at the sight of the future Queen of Denmark mincing around with her hands on her hips as if she was practicing for a beauty pageant.

It was fascinating, not to mention hilarious.


Another little correction, the video was not taken after Mary was engaged to Frederik, it was just after they had met and Mary was booked to do the course prior to the meeting.
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  #334  
Old 06-21-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Stephanie de Lannoy has been married to the HGD of Luxembourg for approximately 30 months. She has accompanied her husband on numerous overseas economic missions to learn the crucial role of her tiny adopted country on the world stage which is frankly...economy. She has done few engagements on her own-perhaps two or three, but is slowly increasing them.

The citizens of the Grand Duchy have invariably described her as charming, polite and unassuming, and highly intelligent.

Most impressively imo within only a year of her wedding she had completely mastered the difficult Luxembourgish dialect, no mean feat when you consider that Charlene of Monaco can't manage basic French after a decade, Mary of Denmark's Danish is reportedly atrocious after the same amount of time, and Kate Cambridge apparently hasn't even bothered with the language of the Principality whose name she will bear someday, Welsh.

Stephanie has had the manners and breeding not to give her fellow countrymen numerous unwanted glimpses of her bare rear end by stubbornly refusing to realize that gusty winds and lack of underwear are not a good mix, nor has not helped herself to excess holidays and extra kitchens for her home(s) at taxpayer expense.

My question to YOU Rudolph is that other than dressing fashionably what were ANY of these women doing to "take the Royal world by storm" after only 2-3 years of marriage?

BTW, Stephanie in my opinion brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law and I never implied that she did. However as I also mentioned I don't think Stephanie would ever have the bad taste to hold a weepy whiny press conference to air her grievances with Maria-Teresa, as M-T did to her own mother-in-law Josephine Charlotte.
I think you need to go back into some threads and read up on many Crown Princesses duties when they married. I'll use Mary as an example. Within two years of marriage, Crown Princess Mary launched The Mary Foundation. She also became patron of the Danish Heart Foundation, the Danish Refugee Council, WHO Regional Office for Europe, Danish Red Cross and the list goes on. Her first solo engagement was one month after she became Crown Princess.

She has accompanied her husband on half-a-dozen international trips representing her adopted country. Her first solo overseas trip was within the first two years. Also, within the first three years, she had two children. Prior to her wedding, she need to go from beginner level to expert level in Danish, which is no easy feat. Yes, she has an accent, but she still uses Danish at her engagements.

I cannot find any patronages Stephanie represents. She hasn't been on any solo international trips, and she hasn't launched her own foundation.
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  #335  
Old 06-21-2015, 06:08 PM
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What do you mean, the big German marrying farms no longer count? They are still there, often in great wealth, on large estates and with glittering jewels many Queens could be jealous off.

Oh yes, under Queen Victoria apparently one should marry for "love" (I hear Charles mumbling: "Whatever love means"). But let us oversee the list of all her in-laws, the result of her children marrying "for love":

Prince Friedrich von Preussen (later German Emperor)
Princess Alexandra of Denmark
Prince Ludwig von Hessen (later Grand Duke of Hessen)
Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand Duchess of Russia
Prince Christian von Schleswig-Holstein
Lord John Douglas Sutherland Campbell (later 9th Duke of Argyll)
Princess Luise Margaret von Preussen
Princess Helena von Waldeck und Pyrmont
Prince Heinrich Moritz von Battenberg

Princess Victoria loved Frederich of Prussia, and in his own way Edward VII loved Alexandra. Alice loved Louis (Ludwig), but then realized they were not soul mates. Alfred, you have the wrong Maria he married Maria Alexandronova, he was madly in love when he married her, that too, fell to the wayside, Helena loved Prince Christian and they were happily married for 50 years. Louise and Lord Lorne, there are all kinds of stories, but she cared for him and he wasn't royal at all. Arthur cared greatly for his wife. And Leopold was grateful to have a wife and Helen and he loved one another. And last but not least Beatrice wanted a husband, I think she did love him, she and Liko seemed to be happy together and he was only partially royal as the Battenburgs had Commoner blood. By Victoria rose above that not only for Beatrice, but her granddaughter Victoria of Hesse and Louis of Battenburg.
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  #336  
Old 06-21-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Stephanie de Lannoy has been married to the HGD of Luxembourg for approximately 30 months. She has accompanied her husband on numerous overseas economic missions to learn the crucial role of her tiny adopted country on the world stage which is frankly...economy. She has done few engagements on her own-perhaps two or three, but is slowly increasing them.

The citizens of the Grand Duchy have invariably described her as charming, polite and unassuming, and highly intelligent.

Most impressively imo within only a year of her wedding she had completely mastered the difficult Luxembourgish dialect, no mean feat when you consider that Charlene of Monaco can't manage basic French after a decade, Mary of Denmark's Danish is reportedly atrocious after the same amount of time, and Kate Cambridge apparently hasn't even bothered with the language of the Principality whose name she will bear someday, Welsh.

Stephanie has had the manners and breeding not to give her fellow countrymen numerous unwanted glimpses of her bare rear end by stubbornly refusing to realize that gusty winds and lack of underwear are not a good mix, nor has not helped herself to excess holidays and extra kitchens for her home(s) at taxpayer expense.

My question to YOU Rudolph is that other than dressing fashionably what were ANY of these women doing to "take the Royal world by storm" after only 2-3 years of marriage?

BTW, Stephanie in my opinion brings nothing to the table that makes her superior to her mother-in-law and I never implied that she did. However as I also mentioned I don't think Stephanie would ever have the bad taste to hold a weepy whiny press conference to air her grievances with Maria-Teresa, as M-T did to her own mother-in-law Josephine Charlotte.
All good points, for the people of Luxembourg, Stephanie is doing a marvelous job - I'm not damning by faint praise here, I think she has a role, and she fulfills it (sometimes in awful polyester pants, but I digress )
In fact, I think that most of the spouses chosen by the heirs have been good for their own countries, regardless of where they were born and what their "bloodline" is. Seriously, this is the 21st century. If monarchy falls, it won't be because we suddenly realize that Estelle is the daughter of a gym instructor, etc. We've moved beyond the idea that royalty means anything other than what it is; ambassadors.

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A minor correction. Mary's Danish is not atrocious. She has a distinct accent but her general mastery of Danish is at a very high level.
I've heard varying accounts on Mary's Danish but the point to remember is that she has learned it as best she can, and it is an incredibly difficult language. I think it's also very hard for English speakers to pick up new languages because we simply don't have to.
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  #337  
Old 06-21-2015, 07:53 PM
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I've seen Crown Princess Masako mentioned in the thread but I wonder what people's thoughts are on the marriage of Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko. I think Michiko was the first commoner to marry a Japanese crown prince(although she came from a wealthy family).
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  #338  
Old 06-21-2015, 08:00 PM
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She is a lovely and intelligent woman who suffers from depression and cannot deal with the outdated lunacy of the Japanese Court.
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  #339  
Old 06-21-2015, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
I think you need to go back into some threads and read up on many Crown Princesses duties when they married. I'll use Mary as an example. Within two years of marriage, Crown Princess Mary launched The Mary Foundation. She also became patron of the Danish Heart Foundation, the Danish Refugee Council, WHO Regional Office for Europe, Danish Red Cross and the list goes on. Her first solo engagement was one month after she became Crown Princess.

She has accompanied her husband on half-a-dozen international trips representing her adopted country. Her first solo overseas trip was within the first two years. Also, within the first three years, she had two children. Prior to her wedding, she need to go from beginner level to expert level in Danish, which is no easy feat. Yes, she has an accent, but she still uses Danish at her engagements.

I cannot find any patronages Stephanie represents. She hasn't been on any solo international trips, and she hasn't launched her own foundation.
You haven't found any probably because you haven't been looking.

Luxarazzi : New Patronage for the Hereditary Grand Duchess

I never said Mary had been idle as princess, or hadn't done anything.I know enough about her to understand that the she is very popular with the Danes.

What I did post is that beyond her outfits(particularly her evening wear) CP Mary of Denmark has never really interested me and she still doesn't.

As far as her Danish goes, I only mentioned remarks and criticism I'd read from OTHER DANES. As I told Muhler, I am in no position to personally judge her Danish skills as I don't speak, read or understand a single word of that language.
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  #340  
Old 06-22-2015, 01:32 AM
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What hasn't been mentioned (i think) and what might indeed *be* a factor in the reign of a royal family is their heritage as far as actually coming *from* the country they reign.
At least in the Netherlands, if you read comments of people wanting to get rid of the monarchy afaik the argument that the Queen is a commoner has never been used, but what has been used and comes up regularly in those circles is that the Dutch RF is only for a small part actually dutch (and P.Amalia will be even less so than her dad is).

At least P.Estelle, who is mentioned a lot here as "daughter of a personal trainer", is more than 50% actually swedish; in some countries that may come to be greater effect to the continuation of the royalty than the completely blue bloodline
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