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  #301  
Old 06-21-2015, 06:35 AM
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Pamela Anderson is honoured by royalty in Italy for her work protecting wildlife | Daily Mail Online
OT, but when i saw this article i immediately thought about this commoners vs nobility discussion...i don't think "marriages of established royals to commoners" is the biggest devaluation of the royal/nobel concept anymore
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  #302  
Old 06-21-2015, 08:24 AM
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In Britain individuals are ennobled not families. Lady Diana Spencer wasn't a noble (her father was) Even royals in Britain are commoners.

So anyone who is not the sovereign or the holder of a substantive peerage is a commoner in Britain.
Well in Britain strictly spoken you have the Sovereign, the Peers and the rest are "commoners". That is true, but as so often in the UK, where everything seem unwritten (there is not even a written Constitution....) and vested on traditions, you need to read between the lines and see the context.

Lady Diana Spencer, daughter of the 8th Earl Spencer and of the Honourable Frances Burke Roche (herself a daughter of the 4th Baron Fermoy) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, daughter of 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne and of Nina Cavendish-Bentinck (a prestigious Dutch-British noble dynasty) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

Lady Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott, daughter of the 7th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Scotland's largest landowner) and of Lady Margaret Brigdeman (herself a daughter of the 4th Earl of Bradford) is an aristocrat pur sang and not really a "commoner".

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  #303  
Old 06-21-2015, 08:34 AM
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I is all nonsense. If they didn't marry "Commoners" many would stay single forever. The big German marrying farms no longer count. So, you marry who you love and can. In defense of marry during Queen Victoria's times, she still felt you should marry for "love".
What do you mean, the big German marrying farms no longer count? They are still there, often in great wealth, on large estates and with glittering jewels many Queens could be jealous off.

Oh yes, under Queen Victoria apparently one should marry for "love" (I hear Charles mumbling: "Whatever love means"). But let us oversee the list of all her in-laws, the result of her children marrying "for love":

Prince Friedrich von Preussen (later German Emperor)
Princess Alexandra of Denmark
Prince Ludwig von Hessen (later Grand Duke of Hessen)
Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand Duchess of Russia
Prince Christian von Schleswig-Holstein
Lord John Douglas Sutherland Campbell (later 9th Duke of Argyll)
Princess Luise Margaret von Preussen
Princess Helena von Waldeck und Pyrmont
Prince Heinrich Moritz von Battenberg

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  #304  
Old 06-21-2015, 09:38 AM
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Spain, on the other hand, seems to have a system also similar to the UK. There are ranking titles of nobility like duke, marquis, count, viscount, etc. inheritable by the firstborn, except that in Spain, daughters can now also inherit titles if they are the first child (or, at least, I believe they can, but I'm not very knowledgeable about Spanish rules). Then there is a separate, special status of "grandee" of Spain, which can be awarded by the king to a noble person, e.g. a duke or a marquis, but can also be awarded to an untitled individual.
In Spain since 2005 titles are inherited by the firstborn child of the deceased holder, and no longer by the firstborn son.
But in Spain - and I believe this can happen only there and not in any other country - the holder of many titles can chose to distribute during his lifetime his subsidiary titles to other relatives different from his heir presumptive; this is usually used to allow younger children to inherit a title.
Another big difference of the Spanish system from the other countries is that the succession to a title isn't authomatic: after the title holder dies, his heir presumtive in order to succeed has to petition the title, within two years from the death. If the heir meets certain requirements, he is granter the title; otherwise - if he is denied the title or if more than two years pass between the death of the holder and his petition - the next heir can petition it.
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  #305  
Old 06-21-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Pamela Anderson is honoured by royalty in Italy for her work protecting wildlife | Daily Mail Online
OT, but when i saw this article i immediately thought about this commoners vs nobility discussion...i don't think "marriages of established royals to commoners" is the biggest devaluation of the royal/nobel concept anymore
No, it isn't. You are 100% right about that.
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  #306  
Old 06-21-2015, 01:25 PM
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Who is this "Prince Stefan of Montenegro" who giving titles and honours?
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  #307  
Old 06-21-2015, 02:01 PM
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Who is this "Prince Stefan of Montenegro" who giving titles and honours?
He is a pretender and a complete fraud.
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  #308  
Old 06-21-2015, 02:07 PM
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He's a fake. He claims a number of titles that aren't his to claim.
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  #309  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:18 PM
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Am I not correct that Napoleon was from a very modest family though he was very successful at warfare. However HE crowned himself emperor sooo, what about this Prince mentioned above .... he calls himself a Prince but what makes him so? I suspect that most royals started out the very same way so who is to say one is royal or not?
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  #310  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:23 PM
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I need to clarify that the reason I even mentioned Masako was in response to someone who referenced her as a bad result of a royal marrying a commoner, it was not my idea to bring her up.
Half of me thinks this conversation is funny the other half is just annoyed that we are trying to use logic to argue with people with such......well let's just leave it at that.
Marrying for love should not be the only qualification, a Prince shouldn't be allowed to marry a crack addict woman with 3 kids from 3 different father's and has never had a job but just lives off the state.....or the ocotomom. But commoners can be just as qualified to representing their country as aritocrats are; in some cases they can be more qualified because of their history and experience. I believe who an individual person is shoukd be what qualifies then for the job, not who their freakin ancestors from the 13th century was.
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  #311  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:30 PM
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I agree with Xenia! And I don't want to call names, but some commoner queens or consorts have done much better in representing their countries than, let's say, their "aristos" counterparts!
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  #312  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess of Durham View Post
Am I not correct that Napoleon was from a very modest family though he was very successful at warfare. However HE crowned himself emperor sooo, what about this Prince mentioned above .... he calls himself a Prince but what makes him so? I suspect that most royals started out the very same way so who is to say one is royal or not?
The most royals started out the very same way? What do you mean? They all crowned himselfs royals like Napoleon? So you ,me and all the others here can we become royals so easy?
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  #313  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:49 PM
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I agree with Xenia! And I don't want to call names, but some commoner queens or consorts have done much better in representing their countries than, let's say, their "aristos" counterparts!
Commoner Queens and Consorts represent the country by using illustrious past and connections of the families they married into.
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  #314  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
Commoner Queens and Consorts represent the country by using illustrious past and connections of the families they married into.
Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:56 PM
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Am I not correct that Napoleon was from a very modest family though he was very successful at warfare. However HE crowned himself emperor sooo, what about this Prince mentioned above .... he calls himself a Prince but what makes him so? I suspect that most royals started out the very same way so who is to say one is royal or not?

I'm assuming you're talking about the Napoleons here?

During Napoleon I's reign he created all his siblings Prince and Princesses of the French Imperial Family. I believe he also created 1 brother-in-law, his uncle, his stepson, and his sisters-in-law members of the FIF. The eldest son of one of his brothers, Louis, who had married Napoleon's stepdaughter, Hortense, was named as Napoleon's heir since at the time Napoleon had no children of his own.

This child, Little Napoleon I believe, would die as a child, and Napoleon would end up divorcing his first wife and remarrying a woman, with whom he had a son, Napoleon II. However, Napoleon II didn't have children himself (he died in his early 20s).

The second French Empire was established by another of Louis's sons, who styled himself as Napoleon III (he was either Louis-Napoleon or Napoleon-Louis, I can't remember; Louis had 3 sons, Charles Napoleon, Louis Napoleon, and Napoleon Louis), and establishing himself as Napoleon's heir. This kind of established the idea that the heirs of Napoleon were the children of his brothers.

The current Napoleons (VII and VIII) are the descendants of the youngest brother of Napoleon, Jerome, who I believe is the only of the Bonaparte brothers to have living, legitimate male-line descendants today. Charles, Prince Napoleon VII, is the elder but was bypassed in the succession in favour of his son, Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoleon VIII, as Charles had spoken in favour of a republic.
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  #316  
Old 06-21-2015, 03:59 PM
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Maybe I was not clear with my post... IMO many commoners who got into royal familes do their "work" much better than some "blue blood" nobles
They have to. Otherwise they will be crucified by enlightened free media.
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  #317  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:01 PM
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They have to. Otherwise they will be crucified by enlightened free media.
Yes, but this confirms the theory that being royal by birth is not equivalent to make a good job
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  #318  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:07 PM
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The most royals started out the very same way? What do you mean? They all crowned himselfs royals like Napoleon? So you ,me and all the others here can we become royals so easy?
That was a long time ago, I don't think we could do the same. I suspect the population would just think we were crazy ..... unless of course we had a VERY large army behind us.
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  #319  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:09 PM
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Yes, but this confirms the theory that being royal by birth is not equivalent to make a good job
I have been reading this thread for several days. The discussion is running in circles at this point. There are too many Cinderellas nowadays, who try hard to act like "aristos". The downgraded European bloodlines use saccharine PR campaigns to polish their tarnished heraldic symbols and market their new acquisitions.
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  #320  
Old 06-21-2015, 04:13 PM
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That was a long time ago, I don't think we could do the same. I suspect the population would just think we were crazy ..... unless of course we had a VERY large army behind us.

A VERY VERY large army agree.
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