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  #21  
Old 03-23-2011, 07:02 PM
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Yes Victoria and Albert were related because victoria's mom, Victoria of Saxe Coburg saalfeld and albert's father were brother and sister and had 9 children.
Victoria then arranged marriages for her grandchildren and some great grandchildren and sometimes to each other.
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2011, 07:13 PM
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I didn't realize that Victoria and Albert were that closely related.

So, all of Queen Victoria's children were both siblings and cousins. (Mom and Dad were first cousins so technically they were both sibs and first cousins once removed).

There must still have been a strong underlying notion that nobility was "in the blood." Good breeding is probably worth something, but the broader meaning (of upbringing rather than actual genes) is even more important.
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2011, 06:21 AM
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Hawaii definitely. Like Egypt Hawaiian royalty praticed sister and brother marriages although it was consider taboo to marry one's own children although they are few cases of this happening. Queen Keopuolani, Kamehameha's most sacred wife and niece was the epitome of incestual relations; her father and mother were half-siblings, her grandmother and grandfathers were close cousins. All Hawaiian chiefs at the end of the 1700s were cousins. But unlike the pharaohs of egypt the Hawaiian kings never show any genetic birth defects, but they did died really young and were unable to produce children.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2011, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
It has to be a blood relative to be incest. (I'm only adding this to make it perfectly clear to readers who might not know the words "levirate marriage [a yibbum].")
AFAIK on marriage a wife became "blood of her husband" and thus "blood of her brother-in-law", so a dispens was needed in that case as well.
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2011, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
I didn't realize that Victoria and Albert were that closely related.

So, all of Queen Victoria's children were both siblings and cousins. (Mom and Dad were first cousins so technically they were both sibs and first cousins once removed).

There must still have been a strong underlying notion that nobility was "in the blood." Good breeding is probably worth something, but the broader meaning (of upbringing rather than actual genes) is even more important.
First cousin marriages were once very common in Europe, regardless of social status. When people lived in small villages all their lives, rarely moving out for generations there wasnt much choice.
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  #26  
Old 04-18-2011, 11:36 AM
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Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts

King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria & Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.

Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

Repeated generations of first cousin marriages, can approach the index resulting from descent from an uncle/nice marriage. Particularly dangers are those involving double first cousins which is when two siblings of one family reproduce with two siblings of another family. The resulting children are related to each other through both parents' families. Double first cousins share both sets of grandparents in common. Genetically, they are as related as half-siblings.

While the immigrant Pakistani population in the UK is suffering from an advanced rate of genetic disease because of the prevalence of cousin marriages, the consanguinity index of the royals even centuries ago is fairly low.


=========
Because of the size of Britain and the plagues like the Black Death, any two people of English descent are probably no more than distant than 20-25th cousins (even if they can't prove it). A seventh cousin relationship is fairly common among the upper class. Prince William and Camilla are 7th cousins. Barack Obama and Prince Charles are 17th cousins.

Despite the fact that France and the UK are about the same population today, historically they were very different. France reached 5 million over 2000 years ago, while Britain reached 5 million roughly 400 years ago. Randomly chosen French people are less likely to be closely related. Most people of English descent in Canada and the US are from a relatively small group of immigrants.

Prince William and Catherine are at least 15th cousins from their common descent from Sir Thomas Fairfax. But the american comedian Ellen Degeneres is also descended from Sir Thomas Fairfax, so she is also a 15th cousin.
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2011, 12:20 PM
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Affinity Incest

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Originally Posted by melissaadrian View Post
Actually if you read the post, it said LEGALLY. Back in those times it was legally considered incest to marry ones brother's widow. Or if you're first wife died, you couldn't marry her sister. I don't think it was called incest, but considered the same thing, it was called continuity. They could get special dispensation from the Pope though to allow for it.

It was why Henry had such a horrific time divorcing Catherine. Divorces were not that uncommon. But he had recieved dispensation from the Pope, which meant her marriage to Arthur should not interfere. He recieved the dispensation on the grounds Arthur was so sick, the marriage was never consumated.Something about brother's seed entering the same womb, makes it incest back then. That is why he kept trying to force Catherine to admit she had sex with Arthur. It also didn't help her beloved nephew was the King of Spain, and didn't take kindly to his Aunt being cast aside for a commoner whore. He had a lot of control, including military custody of the Pope at one time, to make the Pope side with her.

Levirate is a Jewish concept, not a christian one. It would have held no weight in midevil European culture.
Typically in English you refer to incest between couples related by affinity. Woody Allen and his wife, Soon Yi, who is the much younger adopted daughter if his ex girlfriend might be an example. Very often in the 16th century it was an easy way to get an annulment to petition of incest by affiliation.

Prince Arthur died after 20 weeks of marriage to Catherine of Aragon. They were healthy for most of those weeks, then they both got sick but Catherine recovered . Henry VIII was only age 10 at the time. His father petitioned the pope for a papal dispensation for permission to wave the incest by affiliation for both Henry VIII.

Prince Arthur and Catherine were observed on their wedding night to see that they coupled. These observations were normal for the time, but I doubt that they were observed in detail. The observers reported that the couple had joined, and after Arthur's death Catherine was observed for signs of pregnancy.

Henry VIII, contrary to the belief of many people, was not guilty of notable profligacy in comparison with the other monarchs of his time. But it is doubtful if Henry's married life had ever been pure, even from the first, and we know that in 1519 he had, by Elizabeth Blount, a son whom, at the age of six, he made the Duke of Richmond.


When Catherine got an inkling of what was in the Henry's mind, she made a solemn declaration that the marriage had never been consummated. From this it followed that there had never been any impediment of "affinity" to bar her union with Henry.

The king's secretary, was sent to Pope Clement VII to sue for the declaration of nullity of his union with Catherine, on the ground that the dispensing Bull of Julius II was obreptitious i.e. obtained by false pretences.

Henry also petitioned, in the event of his becoming free, a dispensation to contract a new marriage with any woman even in the first degree of affinity, whether the affinity was contracted by unlawful connexion. This clearly had reference to Anne Boleyn.

The second petition convinced the pope that Henry had no conscientious scruples about his marriage.

It is difficult to know if he believed that the marriage violated god's law. As he seems to have been somewhat sociopathic, I am not sure he couldn't convince himself of anything.

The Catholic encyclopedia of 1917 summarizes: Looking at the last fifteen years of Henry's life, it is hard to find one single feature which does not evoke repulsion.
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  #28  
Old 05-06-2011, 09:55 AM
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Although this was a marriage that never took place, it was rumored that Richard III intended to wed his niece, Elizabeth of York, to cement his claim to the throne.

When Richard was killed in battle, Elizabeth was married off to the victor, Henry VII.
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  #29  
Old 05-06-2011, 12:25 PM
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This whole thread is so interesting. Pacomartin, that was a great summary of Hanoverian cousin marriage! It's interesting to think how everyone is cousins (somehow) if we go back far enough. There were quite a few first cousin marriages in my own family within the last 300 years.

First cousin marriage is illegal, I think, in some of the states of the United States, but not all of them. I know there is an online group for people who are in first cousin marriages in the U.S., so even today, not everyone thinks of it as being "too close." First cousin marriage was a preferred form of marriage in many tribal societies (especially "cross cousin" marriage where a man married the daughter of his mother's brother, which kept the families allied).
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  #30  
Old 06-05-2011, 03:28 AM
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Front page again

The issue has hit the UK papers again as Keighley MP Anne Cryer has condemned first-cousin marriages.

While there is a cumulative generational effect it is important to keep it in prospective. If Prince Charles had married his 2nd cousin as originally planned (she rejected him resulting in his marriage to Diana), we can consider the cumulative effect of the following four relationships:
(1) Queen Victoria married to her first cousin Albert (no generations removed), (2) Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip being 2nd cousins once removed via King Christian IX and Louis of Hesse, (3) QEII and PP being 3rd cousin via Victoria and Albert, (4) the hypothetical Prince William born of 2nd cousins.
All four of these relationships would still not be equivalent to being born to a first cousin marriage, but our hypothetical Princes William and Harry would probably not be quite as genetically blessed.

But, back to the Pakistani-British. One woman in the article with a daughter suffering from severe genetic disorders complains that she was forced into a first cousin marriage, and both she and her husband are products of first cousin marriages as well. If all four grandparents were products of first cousin marriages, the the sick daughter might as well have been born to half-siblings. By nearly every standard that I know of, a child born to half-siblings is a child of incest. Perhaps not quite as bad as full blooded siblings, or father-daughter incest, but still with an extremely high probability of genetic disease. The biggest problem with the Pakistani immigrants is the multi-generational attachment to the practice.
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  #31  
Old 08-13-2011, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kavebear View Post
Hawaii definitely. Like Egypt Hawaiian royalty praticed sister and brother marriages although it was consider taboo to marry one's own children although they are few cases of this happening. Queen Keopuolani, Kamehameha's most sacred wife and niece was the epitome of incestual relations; her father and mother were half-siblings, her grandmother and grandfathers were close cousins. All Hawaiian chiefs at the end of the 1700s were cousins. But unlike the pharaohs of egypt the Hawaiian kings never show any genetic birth defects, but they did died really young and were unable to produce children.
The inability to produce children in itself can be an indication of genetic birth defects.
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  #32  
Old 08-16-2011, 01:23 AM
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The family tree of Charles (Carlos) II of Spain says it all: File:Carlos segundo80.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There is a number of marriages between uncles and nieces and between cousins.
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  #33  
Old 08-16-2011, 01:38 AM
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King Louis XIV of France married his first double-cousin Maria Theresa of Spain, his father Louis XIII and her mother Elisabeth of France were brother and sister, as well as his mother Anna of Austria was the sister of Philip IV of Spain.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2011, 06:40 PM
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Yes, inbreeding can produce infertility.

In my own family genealogy (lots of records for my maternal grandmother), the number of cousin marriages (usually not first cousin, but plenty of second and third cousin marriages) is astonishing. Most of that ended after 1500 or so, but still. When people say something like "each person has 1 million relatives living at 600 years ago," they're forgetting that when cousins marry, lines merge and one has far fewer ancestors. This happened so many times in my own line, I'm glad that once we arrived in America we branched out a little (although still surprised to see, for example, that my 5X great grandpa, George, married a woman who shared a common ancestor with his mother some 6 generations earlier). I know 7th or 8th cousins are distant, but still, as i said, I was brought up that if you knew you were related, it was not proper.

In my family's case, it was largely a function of the fairly small number of people who came over to Jamestown in the first 100 years, everyone tried to outmarry, but soon, everyone was related.
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2011, 11:37 PM
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also, sibling marriages were common among inca kings
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:05 PM
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Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth of Austria were 1st cousins. Their mothers were sisters. A third sister married FJs grandfather which made her his 4th wife so she was actually the stepmother-in-law of her own sister. And Elisabeth's parents were 2nd cousins as far as I recall. And if you look back in the Habsburg history there are many marriages between the Habsburgs and the Wittelsbachs who were already closely related.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:15 PM
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Oh, ugh, ugh. So, the third sister was the sister of Franz Joseph's mother? Did she marry the paternal grandpa (I hope I hope, has to be).
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:52 PM
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yes the third sister was Princess Karoline Auguste of Bavaria who married Emperor Franz I. in 1808 and thus became Empress Karoline of Austria. Her sister Princess Sophie of Bavaria married Archduke Franz Carl in 1824. Their eldest son Franz Joseph was born in 1830. So yes she married the paternal grand-father ;-). And Princess Ludovika Wilhelmine of Bavaria married her 2nd cousin Duke Max Joseph in Bavaria in 1828. Their daughter and the later Empress Elisabeth was born in 1837. Empress FJ and Empress Elisabeth who were as already mentioned 1st cousins married in 1854.
What's more Archduke Franz Carl's elder brother and FJ's uncle Emperor Ferdinand was married to his 2nd cousin Princess Maria Anna of Savoy.
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  #39  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:57 PM
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Can Queen Victoria's grandchildren's and great grandchildren's marriages between cousins be considered incestuous? Like princess Victoria melita's marriages ....
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  #40  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandduchess24 View Post
Can Queen Victoria's grandchildren's and great grandchildren's marriages between cousins be considered incestuous? Like princess Victoria melita's marriages ....
I think in this discussion we are talking about closer marriages, eg some of the Wurttemberg marriages between uncle and niece.
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