What is a "lady in waiting" 's (French : dame de compagnie) job ?

[FarahJoy]

This vital question has been haunting my mind for a while

Is it a maid ? A servant ? A friend ? A mix between this all ?

Does anyone know ?

What is their training ? How are they chosen ? What do they exactly do ? How many of them do Royals have at their disposal ? When ? In what do their jobs differ from other servant jobs ?

I swear I'm not going to apply to Buckingham Palace but I am really curious about this uncommon job

[susan alicia]

Lady-in-waiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Beatrice]

Originally Posted by susan alicia

Lady-in-waiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thanks for the link!!i had searched for that too but i had still questions

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by FarahJoy

This vital question has been haunting my mind for a while

Is it a maid ? A servant ? A friend ? A mix between this all ?

Does anyone know ?

What is their training ? How are they chosen ? What do they exactly do ? How many of them do Royals have at their disposal ? When ? In what do their jobs differ from other servant jobs ?

I swear I'm not going to apply to Buckingham Palace but I am really curious about this uncommon job

In short you can say that a lady-in-waiting (this is the English term, in my country it is called Hofdame ("Dame of the Court") or Dame du Palais ("Dame of the Palace"). They are definitely no maids or servants. In the Netherlands, but also in the United Kingdom, they use to be ladies of certain descent, with an excellent standing in society. Often it are noble or patrician (upper class) ladies who are "approved company to Her Majesty", so to say.

In the Netherlands the Hofdames and Dames du Palais are not paid. Their expenses for their functioning and representation are met by The Queen. So you need to be financially independent. It is seen as an utmost honour to be asked (you don't apply, you are 'asked') for this position. After all, after the family, you are the closest as possible to the Sovereign.

It is a very high position at the Court. In the Netherlands (and I assume in the United Kingdom it is comparable) the ladies do not belong to the regular staff (= cooks, footmen, maids) but are part of the 'Household Honorair", and are led by the Grootmeesteres (Grandmastress, in the United Kingdom: Mistress of the Robes) who only has one boss: The Queen.



In the Netherlands there are 6 Hofdames and 5 Dames du Palais. The difference has somewhat gone: Hofdames used to be unmarried ladies, while Dames du Palais were married ladies. Now there is in fact no real difference: Dames du Palais now are senior Hofdames with a long record. They have a weekly shift, so that means once in the 5 à 6 weeks they are on duty. Their high position is illustrated by the fact that they have their own appartments inside the palace, do receive their own guests in their salons and travel together with The Queen, usually next to her (since Queen Beatrix is a widow, she has no accompany from her spouse).

The Grootmeesteres used to give her own New Year's reception for the Corps Diplomatique. But this has been abolished. The Grootmeesteres, the Hofdames and the Dames du Palais however do organize diners and receptions and act as the eyes and ears of The Queen. They also represent The Queen at weddings and funerals of important figures and keep in touch with the aristocracy.

I hope this gave enough insight.

[Henri M.]

Coincidentally on the Benelux Royal Message Board a poster, named Joris, posted a link to an exhibition with an interesting insight in what was discussed in the latest post:


An excerpt:

The Hague in the Netherlands, home to the Court and the nobility, city of politicians and ambassadors, has always been sophisticated and outward-looking. La Haye even had its own language, known as Hagois, a striking mixture of Dutch and French. The city’s refinement is reflected in the gowns that have been preserved of hofdames, dames du palais and others who moved in Court circles.

They wore these fashionable creations at receptions, dinners, balls, investitures and weddings, but also during times of mourning. In entertainment circles one could dress less formally than at Court but here, too, the smart set of The Hague showed class.

A large and truly unique collection of garments has been preserved from the wardrobe of Jonkvrouw (= noble lady) Henriëtte van de Poll (1853-1946), hofdame to the Queen Emma of the Netherlands, whose many letters provide a peek behind the palace screens. A host of anecdotes betrays a society in which fashion was a matter of life and death.
Each item of clothing has its own special story that reveals the Court’s written and unwritten rules. When did you wear a manteau de cour, what did demi-montante mean, what should you wear for light mourning and what on earth was meant by compulsory décolleté?

[HRH Kerry]

Henri M.,
Thanks for the insightful answers. I definitely thought that a lady-in-waiting was a graceful way of saying servant.

[acdc1]

Weren't they mostly from aristocracy or nobility?

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by acdc1

Weren't they mostly from aristocracy or nobility?

They still are. The artistocratic requirement has never been there. It just need to be ladies 'of excellent standing'. In eras gone this indeed was synomymous with 'being of noble birth. But at the Netherlands Court the ladies of 'excellent standing' are nobility, patriciate (compare it with Mayflower upper class in the USA), 'old money' (from mighty industrial or financial dynasties) but also -for an exemple- the spouse of a CEO or or a top-scientist can be asked.

At the moment Queen Beatrix has 1 Grootmeesteres and 6 Hofdames in her slipstream:

M.L.A. (‘Martine’) van Loon-Labouchere formerly Delprat, Grootmeesteres (patrician, widowed to an aristocrat)

Picture of the Grootmeesteres (sitting next to the Premier Minister, representing the Queen, during a Salvation Army Funeral) Doubleclick to blow up the picture and see the isnignia all Ladies-in-Waiting are wearing.

Jonkvrouwe R.D. (‘Reina’) de Blocq van Scheltinga formerly Teixeira de Mattos, Hofdame (aristocrat)

M.J. (‘Mienthe’) Boellaard-Stheemann, Hofdame (patrician)

O.A. (‘Lieke’) Gaarlandt-Van Voorst van Beesd, Hofdame (patrician)

J. (‘Julie’) Jeekel-Thate, Hofdame (commoner)

M.P. (‘Ietje’) Karnebeek-Van Lede, Hofdame (patrician, married to an aristocrat)

E.J.M. (‘Elizabeth’) Baroness van Wassenaer-Mersmans, Hofdame (married to an aristocrat)

When these ladies leave the active service, they are appointed into the Queen’s honorary household and become a Dame du Palais Honoraire or a Hofdame Honoraire. The difference between a Dame du Palais and a Hofdame mainly was that the first were married ladies and the second were unmarried ladies. Later the Dame du Palais evolved more and more into a function positioned between the Grootmeesteres and the Hofdames. The best British equivalent possibly is: Lady of the Bedchamber. In the 1980’s Queen Beatrix reorganized the royal household organization and she made an end to the function of Dame du Palais. The Queen still uses it for the honorary household, for the retired Hofdames, so to say. At the moment there are seven ladies in the honorary household:

C. (‘Kathy’) Bischoff van Heemskerck-Telders formerly Baroness Schimmelpenninck van der Oye, Dame du Palais Honoraire (married to a patrician and widowed to an aristocrat)

M.A.R. (‘Mieke’) de Kanter born Jonkvrouwe Von Mühlen, Dame du Palais Honoraire (aristocrat, married to a patrician)

C.L. (‘Clara’) van Zinnicq Bergmann, Baroness De Vos van Steenwijk, Dame du Palais Honoraire (aristocrat, married to a patrician)

A.V. (‘Ada’) de Beaufort-Van Sminia, Hofdame Honoraire (patrician, married to an aristocrat)

H.G. (‘Henriëtte’) Goudzwaard-Blom, Hofdame Honoraire (commoner)

A. (‘Aggie’) Labouchere, Hofdame Honoraire (patrician)

M.C.C. (‘Marie’) Nahuys-Wijnen, Hofdame Honoraire (married to a patrician)

[magnik]

What about the other courts?
- from the past (Vienna's court) and present?
Who where /are they?

[FarahJoy]

Originally Posted by susan alicia

Lady-in-waiting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you, Susan Alicia. Ouch ! I was stunned to read that Japanese Emperors could have a male heir with the official Ladies-in-waiting ! I wonder how HIM the Empress could feel about that...

[FarahJoy]

Originally Posted by Henri M.

In short you can say that a lady-in-waiting (this is the English term, in my country it is called Hofdame ("Dame of the Court") or Dame du Palais ("Dame of the Palace"). They are definitely no maids or servants. In the Netherlands, but also in the United Kingdom, they use to be ladies of certain descent, with an excellent standing in society. Often it are noble or patrician (upper class) ladies who are "approved company to Her Majesty", so to say.

In the Netherlands the Hofdames and Dames du Palais are not paid. Their expenses for their functioning and representation are met by The Queen. So you need to be financially independent. It is seen as an utmost honour to be asked (you don't apply, you are 'asked') for this position. After all, after the family, you are the closest as possible to the Sovereign.

It is a very high position at the Court. In the Netherlands (and I assume in the United Kingdom it is comparable) the ladies do not belong to the regular staff (= cooks, footmen, maids) but are part of the 'Household Honorair", and are led by the Grootmeesteres (Grandmastress, in the United Kingdom: Mistress of the Robes) who only has one boss: The Queen.



In the Netherlands there are 6 Hofdames and 5 Dames du Palais. The difference has somewhat gone: Hofdames used to be unmarried ladies, while Dames du Palais were married ladies. Now there is in fact no real difference: Dames du Palais now are senior Hofdames with a long record. They have a weekly shift, so that means once in the 5 à 6 weeks they are on duty. Their high position is illustrated by the fact that they have their own appartments inside the palace, do receive their own guests in their salons and travel together with The Queen, usually next to her (since Queen Beatrix is a widow, she has no accompany from her spouse).

The Grootmeesteres used to give her own New Year's reception for the Corps Diplomatique. But this has been abolished. The Grootmeesteres, the Hofdames and the Dames du Palais however do organize diners and receptions and act as the eyes and ears of The Queen. They also represent The Queen at weddings and funerals of important figures and keep in touch with the aristocracy.

I hope this gave enough insight.

Thank you very much, Henri M. Waw ! Your answer is very complete and you seem to have a detailed knowledge of monarchies and their daliy life ! Very interesting !

I wonder if Queens sometimes become friends with their Lady-in-waiting because after all, their share so many happy or sad daily events together. I suppose they sometimes talk about it...

[Marengo]

I think that in most cases the Queen is already friends or at least well-acquinted with the future lady in waiting. It wouldn´t be surprising if Maxima´s friend Samantha Deane (now Baroness Rengers) will become her lady in waiting in the future for example.

Though all these titles and prewtty last names are nice I think it wouldn´t hurt the RF to get a few people who are a more ´humble´ background, this all seems rather elitist.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by Marengo

I think that in most cases the Queen is already friends or at least well-acquinted with the future lady in waiting. It wouldn´t be surprising if Maxima´s friend Samantha Deane (now Baroness Rengers) will become her lady in waiting in the future for example.

Though all these titles and prewtty last names are nice I think it wouldn´t hurt the RF to get a few people who are a more ´humble´ background, this all seems rather elitist.

Well, monarchy needs some distance. Not only in the choice of partners, which should remain different from us, ordinary people. Also the fact that the ladies and gentlemen surrounding the Queen belong to an elitist group add to the distance a monarchy really needs.

By the way, there are two commoners as Hofdame: Julie Jeekel-Thate and Henriëtte Goudzwaard-Blom. None of them belong to the aristocracy or the patriciate. But also these two ladies have a certain standing:

Mrs. Henriëtte Goudzwaard-Blom, Hofdame Honoraire is the spouse of dr. J.M. Goudzwaard, deputy CEO of Unilever, the Dutch-British food and retail giant multinational.

Mrs. Julie Jeekel-Thate M.l. , Hofdame is the spouse of dr. J. Jeekel, professor in General Surgery at the Erasmus University Medical Faculty, Rotterdam.

So the two commoner hofdames are also of excellent standing indeed.


The other Hofdames and Dames du Palais are noble or patrician by birth or marriage.

[CasiraghiTrio]

It's natural for royal women to have ladies-in-waiting from their intimate circle of friends. Who else would or could do that job, unpaid, besides the friends of royalty who don't need to work for money and don't have much limits on time?
It's hard to find a person of "humble means" with the time or financial security for this job!

I am loving the "Hofdame" word. It reminds me of the "Hofmeister" word in German, which means a private tutor.

[Henri M.]

Originally Posted by CasiraghiTrio

It's natural for royal women to have ladies-in-waiting from their intimate circle of friends. Who else would or could do that job, unpaid, besides the friends of royalty who don't need to work for money and don't have much limits on time?
It's hard to find a person of "humble means" with the time or financial security for this job!

I am loving the "Hofdame" word. It reminds me of the "Hofmeister" word in German, which means a private tutor.

Well, I think that Queen Beatrix is close to her Hofdames and Dames du Palais, but she is too much a Queen and a bit alike Queen Sofía of Spain: "Queens have no friends". In my option it was Diana's main fault that she did reveal everything to her 'friends', under these crystal ball watchers, tarot cardreaders, couturiers and popstars. A Princess of Wales has no friends.....

From my understanding none of the Hofdames and Dames du Palais, also not those with along record, are on first name terms with the Queen or the Princesses. With a possible and exceptional exception to Martine van Loon - Labouchère formerly Delprat, the Grootmeesteres (Grandmastress / Lady of the Bedchamber). She seems to count as a confidante to The Queen. Note: a confidante is not the same as 'friend'! But the Queen keeps a distance. It is always "U" and "Majesteit" or "Mevrouw". Never the more informal "Jij" and for sure not "Beatrix".

There is an anecdote about this. The late Prince Bernhard once became infuriated in the famous interview in De Volkskrant, shortly before his death, when he was asked about rumours and gossips regarding his devoted mother Princess Armgard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Baroness von Sierstorpff-Cramm.

For decades she had Colonel Alexey Pantchulichev as her equerry. The Colonel was her rock and her shield. The Prince: "In all those years never, never, the Colonel has ever said "Du" to my mother. It was always "Sie" here and "Sie" there. He has never dared to kiss my mother. Not even on her cheek!"

Still the Colonel was a confidant to the old Princess. He knew all about her private and public businesses and her administration. In our eyes we would think: they are friends. But no: distance. Always distance.

It is not for nothing the Prince and Princess of Orange do live in a smaller scale villa rather than in a palace: they want to escape the spying eyes, the courtiers, the grey men in the grey suits, as much as possible.