Title of Princess

florawindsor · #1 04-30-2005, 07:11 AM

hi i have a question about the title of "princess".
somebody told me that long time ago, princes are not allowed to marry the commons( they only marry foreign princess), since time change, they now can marry common people with no title, so in order to preserve their dignity, and nobleness, the sovereign will make his/her future daughter-in-law(before the wedding) a Princess(meaning a princess-by-blood, not a princess-by-marriage), is it true? i know that before Princess Margaret married, the Queen made her husband an earl. but i never know they made the future bride a "princess" before the wedding. so is princess diana already a "princess" or simply Lady Diana Spencer before she married Charles?
i know it's maybe no importance to you but in my native language, Princess by blood and princess by marriage are 2 different words. so this is really important. if you know anything about this topic, pls do reply .thanks!

ps:i posted this topic before but i can't find it, so i am posting again:(

Claire · #2 04-30-2005, 10:06 AM

I'm afriad the answer is more difficult than than as the rules differ in various European houses. For example in Britian only a women born royal (ie. they are the daughters or grand- daughters of the sovereign.) can claim the title of Princess. Such as Princess Anne, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie.
Diana's title was Princess of Wales - the Princess part was only the femine version of Prince Charles title. So she was never Princess Diana, she was Diana, Princess of Wales.
In British royalty - women marrying in to the royal family assume their husband's titles. So technically. Diana was also Princess Charles of Wales
Sarah was Princess Andrew and Sophie is Princess Edward. But only Princess Micheal of Kent uses this notation, as it is understandable that they wouldn't want to use their husband's names.

I believe parts of Europe, the moment a women marries a royal with the title of Prince, they themselves became Princess. Maybe others can help further.

KikkiB · #3 04-30-2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire

So technically. Diana was also Princess Charles of Wales
Sarah was Princess Andrew and Sophie is Princess Edward. But only Princess Micheal of Kent uses this notation, as it is understandable that they wouldn't want to use their husband's names.

I know this is a bit of topic, but this tradition of using the husbands title has also been practiced by commons too, not only in royal circles. In the past it was common for a wife being officially known by her husbands name, i.e. mr. & mrs. John Smith, colonel and mrs. Peter Smith, doctor and mrs. Gary Smith. But my guess is that this tradition disappeared with the womens liberation "campagins" in the 60s and 70s. Just a comment...

norwegianne · #4 04-30-2005, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire

I believe parts of Europe, the moment a women marries a royal with the title of Prince, they themselves became Princess. Maybe others can help further.

It is the current monarch who decides on the title of people marrying into the royal families, at least as far as I'm aware and understand, in Denmark and Norway.

It was King Harald who officially decided that Mette-Marit's title after her marriage would be Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway.

Of course, there is a bit of automatic to it. It would be strange if the monarch didn't grant them the title, as he/she has to approve the marriage before it happens.

florawindsor · #5 04-30-2005, 01:38 PM

thanks for the replys!
the particular title i was talking about when i asked this question is that of Princess Alexandra of Denmark. there's a report in local paper which says Alexandra "gongzhu"(Chinese, meaning princess-by-blood) visited some children center. so i think the translation should be "wangfei"(Chinese, meaning princess-by-marriage).
then sb told me that her mother-in-law made her a princess before she married Prince Jochiam, now she assumed her title before her marriage.so it's ok to call her a "gongzhu" now. but in many papers reporting about the divorce they described as" she will retain the title of Princess". so in this sense, i think the "princess" means a "princess-by-marriage".
if Denmark does have the tradition of making the future wife of princes a 'princess' before the wedding, then i must have been wrong. maybe i confused the tradition of UK with them, cos in UK they don't do so.
it's really confusing! discussing such complex issues with someone from a different culture(like me). thank you again for the reply!
btw,if you want to know more about the british title, there's a link
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...ish%20princess

norwegianne · #6 04-30-2005, 01:50 PM

It's not given out before marriage. It's more given out "during" the ceremony, to put it like that. I think that there was a press release from around Mary and Frederik's wedding that said that Mary would be Crown Princess Mary of Denmark from [the date and time of the wedding ceremony], and I seem to recall such a thing with Princess Alexandra as well.

Of course, my memory could be faulty.

florawindsor · #7 04-30-2005, 02:09 PM

thank you norwegianne!
i found this on the denmark royal website:)

On 18 November 1995, HRH Prince Joachim married Miss Alexandra Christina Manley, who in connection with the marriage became HRH Princess Alexandra of Denmark.

Binky · #8 05-02-2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claire

I'm afriad the answer is more difficult than than as the rules differ in various European houses. For example in Britian only a women born royal (ie. they are the daughters or grand- daughters of the sovereign.) can claim the title of Princess. Such as Princess Anne, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie.

Not only that, only grandchildren of soverigns through the male line get the titles Prince/Princess. Beatrice and Eugenie are princesses, Zara Philips is not. Check out this wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...tyle_and_title

Fashionista100 · #9 05-02-2005, 02:50 PM

The reason Zara and Peter do not have titles is two fold. Mr Phillips refused to be made and "Earl" or "Duke" by the Queen. Princess Anne did also not want her children to have titles as they would eventually become so far down on the sucession list they won't need them. She wanted them to be normal.

Yes, it is true titles come from the male line in most royal houses unless it is the child of a souvringn and there are no male heirs. As in Denmark Queen Maragrethe was a Princess by birth and became Queen, her husband was not a Prince by birth, but her children Joachim and Fred are princes b/c of their mother being Queen. If here children were not inline to become sorveign they would not be princes but counts or something.

As far a Princesses become princess "by birth" upon marriage, to my knowledge it isn't true. Most royals in Europe would take their husbands title to show they are Princesses by marriage ie Princess Andrew of York (Sarah Ferguson) Princess Michael of Kent etc. But today they do not use these "offical or real titles" its just a tradition of a bygone era. However if a Princess by birth marries a Prince by birth she is still called by her first name not her husbands because she is of equal stature.

ladybelline · #10 05-02-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Queen Maragrethe was a Princess by birth and became Queen, her husband was not a Prince by birth

Yes, her husband was a French Count before their wedding (Count Henri de Laborde de Monpezat) and he was given the title of Prince Henrik of Denmark after he married Crown Princess Margrethe.

Binky · #11 05-02-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fashionista100

The reason Zara and Peter do not have titles is two fold. Mr Phillips refused to be made and "Earl" or "Duke" by the Queen. Princess Anne did also not want her children to have titles as they would eventually become so far down on the sucession list they won't need them. She wanted them to be normal.

You are right, Fashionista100. I forgot about Mark Phillips not wanting a title. Had he accepted on Zara and Peter would be styled Lady and Lord.

sara1981 · #12 05-03-2005, 02:54 AM

im not sure about late Lady Diana Spencer took titles to become Princess of Wales when she married to Prince Charles in July 1981 i think she did took titles because Diana become 300 years as Princess of Wales someone said that.

And also Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson took titles as Duke and Duchess of York when both got married in July 1986.

And also Prince Edward and Sophie-Rhys Jones create as Earl and Countess of Wessexes when both got married in June 19,1999

Princess Anne become Princess Royal when she got married to mr.phillips they Tim but she would plans divorces but the Queen said DONT!

Sara Boyce

**Ennyllorac** · #13 05-03-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sara1981

im not sure about late Lady Diana Spencer took titles to become Princess of Wales when she married to Prince Charles in July 1981 i think she did took titles because Diana become 300 years as Princess of Wales someone said that.

And also Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson took titles as Duke and Duchess of York when both got married in July 1986.

And also Prince Edward and Sophie-Rhys Jones create as Earl and Countess of Wessexes when both got married in June 19,1999

Princess Anne become Princess Royal when she got married to mr.phillips they Tim but she would plans divorces but the Queen said DONT!

Sara Boyce

Sara,

Princess Anne did not receive the title of Princess Royal when she married. According to the Royal Family website she received the title in 1987, long after she married Mark Phillips. She married him in 1973 and they were divorced in 1992. The title of Princess of Royal was bestowed to her in recognition of her hard work.

Anna_R · #14 05-03-2005, 10:30 AM

Well, taking advantage of this topic, I would like to ask something.

I heard that, at the time of the wedding, Princess Maxima was created Princess Maxima of the Netherlands, although she uses, by courtesy, the title of HRH Máxima, Princess of Orange. And, in the event of a divorce (God forbid), she would be styled "HRH Princess Maxima of the Netherlands".

In Marie-Chantal's case, her title is simply Crown Princess Pavlos of Greece. Why isn't she known as Crown Princess Marie-Chantal of Greece?

I hope this is not too confusing....

ladybelline · #15 05-03-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

In Marie-Chantal's case, her title is simply Crown Princess Pavlos of Greece. Why isn't she known as Crown Princess Marie-Chantal of Greece?

I think (maybe somebody could confirm the fact) that it is King Constantine who decided prior to her wedding that she will not be styled as "Princess Marie-Chantal" but "Princess Pavlos".

If anyone has a confirmation...

His Lordship · #16 06-04-2005, 08:25 PM

Wow..great discussion on here.

In Britain, when the son of a monarch is married, or in some cases comes of age, he is given a secondary title, usually Duke of ______ to add behind the Prince. There are a select handful of dukedoms that are solely used by the princes of the blood royal.

When he marries as Claire and others accurately point out, his assumes the rank of princess but is called by his secondary title.

Andrew, Duke of York.....when he married Sarah her official title was HRH Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana -Americans always get this wrong - she was never an HRH except during the period of her marriage. When she divorced she lost the HRH status - AUTOMATICALLY! This has nothing to do how the queen felt about her.

Her correct title once and for all while she was alive and married was HRH Diana Princess of Wales.

Anne was born a princess and given the title Princess Royal as recognition for her work. That is her official title.

Edward did not want a dukedom, but when Prince Philip dies, the Queen, or Charles if he is King, will give him the title Duke of Edinburgh...Sofia will then be known as HRH Sofia Duchess of Edinburgh.

Titles in the English Royal family follow the grade of peers for the most part. Born a prince, made a duke and then usually another title Earl or Baron.

Prince George had two sons, Edward and Michael. Edward the oldest is now the Duke of Kent - and has his father's other titles kept with him - Earl of St. Andrews and Baron Downpatrick - his oldest son and grandson use these as courtsey titles...this does NOT make them peers however.

Prince Michael only has the title of Prince, which is why, as Claire accurately points out his wife is known as HRH Princess Michael of Kent.

Titles used to be a big concern in the 19th and early 20th century. The highest level was HIRH - Her Imperial and Royal Highness - Grand Duchess Elizabeth (Ellen) of Russia married to one of Prince Philip's Greek uncles insisted on being addressed by her combined Russian and Greek titles - much to the amusement of her Greek inlaws.

Now comes the fun part......when you are born a princess and then marry a prince, you keep the title princess in front of your name and then assume the country or region of your husband...Princess Caroline of Hanover....Before she was Queen, Princess Sofia - Princess of Asturias. Princess Ingrid of Sweden, when she married Prince William became Princess Ingred of Denmark.

Also, HRH Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium picked up the title HGDH Princess of Luxembourg when she married so she was both HRH and HGDH.

Hope this helps.

Alexandria · #17 06-04-2005, 08:31 PM

Not quite a question, but I am noticing more and more frequently the Prince of Wales title being diminished in its usage to Prince Charles. More and more frequently I am seeing the Duke of Cornwall title in articles and photo references to Prince Charles.

I guess this is an attempt to connect him to Camilla and emphasize the importance of this title, and that Camilla does not go by Princess of Wales (even though she could). Has anyone else noticed this?