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  #161  
Old 07-13-2009, 07:45 AM
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Prince Humberto and Princess Maria Jose visiting the Pope in 30's. Why did Maria Jose wear white dress? She wasn't a queen....

Imageshack - aa9f0124

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  #162  
Old 07-13-2009, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by espejor View Post
Prince Humberto and Princess Maria Jose visiting the Pope in 30's. Why did Maria Jose wear white dress? She wasn't a queen....

Imageshack - aa9f0124

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I believe it is customary for Royals who belong to the Catholic Church to wear white when visiting the Pope, although they can choose to wear black as well. Princess Maria Jose and Prince Umberto were Catholics, which is why she may have chosen the white colour.

EDIT: I was always under the impression that all Catholic Royals could wear white in the presence of the Pope. However, I had forgotten about the Privilège du blanc (the White Privilege), which indeed allows white attire but only for Catholic spouses of the Monarchs. The dress code etiquette was very strict in the 1930's and the only reason I can think of Princess Maria Jose was allowed to wear white was that it was acknowledged that she would eventually become a Catholic Queen (which she did).

The dress code is less obligatory since 1980's: I remember Raisa Gorbachyova chose to wear red during the meeting with the Pope and there was the controversy with Cherie Blair, when she wore white (which was inappropriate even if she were indeed a Catholic, because she isn't/wasn't the wife of the Monarch or even Head of the State).
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  #163  
Old 07-13-2009, 09:19 AM
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you're right espejor, that's curious that Maria Josè was wearing white. And she wear it also in other occasions, for example at the coronation of Pius XII in 1939.
And I have to say more: also princesses Giovanna and Maria of Savoy wear white when they visited HH in Vatican in 1929.
At this point I have to think that after the treaty between Italy and Holy See of 11 February 1929 all the Savoy princess had the Privilege du blanc.
I have also another question on this point: during these visits in the entourage of the princesses there were also other ladies who wear white (not total white it seems to me, however).. maybe they could do it because they finally didn't arrive at the presence of HH? Or the privilege is something that extend to the entourage?
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  #164  
Old 07-13-2009, 11:19 AM
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I think the picture has been taken on their wedding day ;
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  #165  
Old 07-13-2009, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
I think the picture has been taken on their wedding day ;
If you see in "Queen's Jewels" by Vincent Meylan, you can see this picture and in the description V.M. wrote that they were visiting the Pope. In the books about the Savoia's Jewels (by Stefano Papi and Maria Gabriella of Savoia) appears too the photo and i the description S.P. has written too that they were visiting the Pope.

And in the site where I found the photo, the description said too that they were visiting the Pope.

EDIT: Yes, the photo was taken the day of his marriage. But they were visiting the Pope! (When King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia were to visit the Pope after his wedding, Sofia wore black dress!):



But I have found other photo where Maria Jose is in the Vatican and she isn't wearing black dress:

http://img223.imageshack.us/i/bc4d0a3c.jpg/

And in this video appear more than one women wearing white dresses (behind Queen Helena):





I'm so confused!

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  #166  
Old 07-13-2009, 01:21 PM
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To be precise only the first video IMO is relevant and represent Umberto and Maria Josè in Vatican the day before their wedding (it is written in the subtitles). So Maria Josè was still a princess of Belgium..
It is interesting to note that at a certain moment, you can see Umberto kneeling having on one side Maria Josè and on the other another woman in white, with a trail as long as the one of Maria Josè. Maybe a sister of Umberto? If that was the Queen of Belgians she would have had precedence in the cortege, isn't it?
The second video is about a ceremony in the Quirinale Palace the Pope NOT attended.
The third video is the visit of the Pope to the Italian Royal Family at Quirinale: it is not relevant because I think such a visit didn't follow the Vatican protocol, but the etiquette of the Italian Court.
For example, if Queen Elizabeth of UK receives the Pope at Buckingham Palace does she have to wear black and the veil?
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  #167  
Old 07-13-2009, 02:11 PM
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On the first video you see at the beginning the Grand Place of Brussels , they were at Brussel's cityhall and still engaged.
My question is why did they do to the Pope the day before their wedding ?
When Princess Irène married Charles Hughes de Bourbon Parme, the Pope received them on the same day.
I have Vincent Meylan's book at homr and will have a look . Thanks for your help!
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  #168  
Old 07-13-2009, 02:22 PM
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Espejor , I have also Sophie's picture she was in black when she visited the Queen.
She was at that moment only Princess des Asturies.
Later for Pope Jean-Paul I and a few months later for Pope Jean Paul II , she was in white with a white lace veil , she was then Queen of Spain.
On this same picture you may notice that the Grande Duchesse Josephine Charlotte was also in white and a white lace veil, and next to them Princess Grace de Monaco with a black dress and black veil because altough she was catholic she was not a Royal Highness only Serene Highness.
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  #169  
Old 07-13-2009, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Espejor , I have also Sophie's picture she was in black when she visited the Queen.
She was at that moment only Princess des Asturies.
Later for Pope Jean-Paul I and a few months later for Pope Jean Paul II , she was in white with a white lace veil , she was then Queen of Spain.
On this same picture you may notice that the Grande Duchesse Josephine Charlotte was also in white and a white lace veil, and next to them Princess Grace de Monaco with a black dress and black veil because altough she was catholic she was not a Royal Highness only Serene Highness.
But, when Princess Maria Jose visited the Pope, she was "only" a Princess and I believe that only Catholic Majesties/Catholic Queens can wear white dress in the visit to the Pope. For example, when Letizia visited the Pope with Felipe, she wore black dress:

http://img238.imageshack.us/i/papa4a.jpg/

Imageshack - 1ac3134papa7g

A photo of the coronation of John Paul I (with Queen Fabiola and Sofia wearing white dress)(If you want, I can buy and scan the magazine where appear the photos of the coronation):

Imageshack - 5214591

The question is: Why did Maria Jose wear white dress if she was a Princess and other Princesses like Sofia didn't wear white dress?

I have other doubt: You have said that Grace Kelly couldn't wear white dress in her visit to the Pope because she was a "Serene Highness". But, if I'm not wrong, the Gran Duchess of Luxembourg is a Royal Highness (like Letizia) and she can wear white dress when she visits the Pope. I believe that she can do that because she is the wife of a sovereign. Well, Grace was the wife of a sovereign too!

EDIT:

In this photo, Queen Helena wears white dress, and other women (Princess Maria Jose?) is wearing white dress too...

http://img34.imageshack.us/i/4723274827fe63add6co.jpg/

But in this photo, of the visit of the Belgian Royal Family to the Pope, Queen Elisabeth doesn't wear white dress!

http://img188.imageshack.us/i/4723274865e0c1ac4a9o.jpg/

Have you seen this photo of Queen Federica? She wasn't Catholic =O

http://img265.imageshack.us/i/257321...0f6dd770o.jpg/

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  #170  
Old 07-13-2009, 03:35 PM
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I have checked and the subtitles of the youtube video above are wrong: Umberto and Maria Josè actually went to the Pope on their weeding day, after the ceremony and before the lunch.
I have also seen that Irene of Bourbon-Parma on her wedding day was received in her white wedding dress.
The privilege du blanc is granted to "Catholic Queen", an expression that in this case as a particular meaning: not simply the sovereigns or the sovereigns' wifes who are catholic, but, between them, the ones (and the descendants of the ones) who have been created "Catholic King" by the Pope. Spanish, Belgian, Luxenbourg's sovereigns have been created so, the princes of Monaco and of Liechtenstein haven't.
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  #171  
Old 07-13-2009, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by amedea View Post
I have checked and the subtitles of the youtube video above are wrong: Umberto and Maria Josè actually went to the Pope on their weeding day, after the ceremony and before the lunch.
I have also seen that Irene of Bourbon-Parma on her wedding day was received in her white wedding dress.
The privilege du blanc is granted to "Catholic Queen", an expression that in this case as a particular meaning: not simply the sovereigns or the sovereigns' wifes who are catholic, but, between them, the ones (and the descendants of the ones) who have been created "Catholic King" by the Pope. Spanish, Belgian, Luxenbourg's sovereigns have been created so, the princes of Monaco and of Liechtenstein haven't.
I understand! Thanks!

But, do you know what Royal Families had this privilege? I suppose that the Italian Royal Family had it.

The Emperors of Austria-Hungary were "Apostolic Kings of Hungary". Do you know if it's the equivalent of the "Catholic Majesty"?

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  #172  
Old 07-13-2009, 04:13 PM
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Well also "Apostolic King" or "Apostolic Majesty" is a concession made by the Pope to a sovereign. But I would say it is equivalent to the titles of "Most Christian Majesty" accorded to the king of France and "Most Faithful Majesty" accorded to the king of Portugal. And I would say that all this sovereigns were "Catholic Kings" in the sense that they had some privileges such as the "privilege du blanc" (however I don't know when this privilege was granted so I don't know who has it).
And when when you hear talking of "Most Faithful", "Apostolic", "Most Christian" Majesties", in that contest "Catholic/More Catholic King/Majesty" has a strictier meaning, that of king of Spain (however, I don't know if the king of Spain can use that title in this strict meaning even after Isabella II).
If the privilege du blanc existed before 1911 and before 1918, I think it should be granted also to Queens of Portugal, Bavaria, Saxony.. and, of course, to the empress of Austria.
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  #173  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:04 PM
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Espejor,
Well, great thanks for the picture of Queen Fabiola in white, it was for Jean Paul I, some weeks after for Jean Paul II , Queen Fabiola was not there and Princess Paola was in black.
I think for Marie José, belgian Princess marrying the future King of Itay, the Vatican made an exception.
You showed a picture of Queen Elisabeth of the belgians in black. Strange , but she surely was not on official visit and perhaps did not see the Pope at all.
For Irène de Bourbon-Parme, she wore her white wedding dress as it was on the same day. If it was the day before or afterwards she should be in black.
The rule was in white for the royal catholic queens and exceptionaly the Princesses of savoie as they were italian princesses.
For the actual Pope in 2005 I think everyone was in black why ????
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  #174  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:11 PM
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Amedeo,
Thanks , So it is well on their wedding day that Umberto and Marie José went to the Pope, which is normal !
Have you seen how small your past King of Italy was comparing with his wife dressed in white and with tiara and veil..
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  #175  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Espejor,
Well, great thanks for the picture of Queen Fabiola in white, it was for Jean Paul I, some weeks after for Jean Paul II , Queen Fabiola was not there and Princess Paola was in black.
I think for Marie José, belgian Princess marrying the future King of Itay, the Vatican made an exception.
You showed a picture of Queen Elisabeth of the belgians in black. Strange , but she surely was not on official visit and perhaps did not see the Pope at all.
For Irène de Bourbon-Parme, she wore her white wedding dress as it was on the same day. If it was the day before or afterwards she should be in black.
The rule was in white for the royal catholic queens and exceptionaly the Princesses of savoie as they were italian princesses.
For the actual Pope in 2005 I think everyone was in black why ????
Thanks for the info! I have changed the information

I will buy the magazine and I will post here the photos (in the magazine appear too Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte).

In 2005 there wasn't coronation for Benedicto XVI.

I only saw in the burial the Queen of Spain (wearing black dress). But I didn't see (or I don't remember) the Queen of Belgium (or Queen Fabiola) and Grand Duchess of Luxembourg.

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  #176  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:26 PM
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I did not know that Benedicto had no coronation. Josephine Charlotte died in january 2005 , so it was Maria Teresa and Henri for Luxemburg..
Thanks for the magazine , it was the only occasion I saw my Queen Fabiola wearing a white veal on the spanish way.
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  #177  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:27 PM
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I have I have found these pics: Maria Teresa of Luxenbourg and Sofia of Spain in white at Pope Benedict XVI Inauguration Mass
Queen Sofia Of Spain Pictures - Pope Benedict XVI Holds First Mass In Saint Peter's Square - Zimbio
Queen Sofia Of Spain Pictures - Pope Benedict XVI Holds First Mass In Saint Peter's Square - Zimbio
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  #178  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:31 PM
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Thanks a lot for all these pictures , now we know better , sad that Queen Paola was not there.
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  #179  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Espejor,
The rule was in white for the royal catholic queens and exceptionaly the Princesses of savoie as they were italian princesses.
So it is confirmed? Savoy princesses had the privilege du blanc?
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  #180  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:42 PM
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YES THIS WAS THE RULE WHEN OF COURSE ITALY WAS A KINGDOM.
Marina of savoie and Clothilde of Savoie/Coreau are now in black !
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