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  #301  
Old 03-09-2015, 08:04 AM
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TRH The Prince and Princess of Wales with H.H Pope John Paul II

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  #302  
Old 04-27-2015, 06:41 PM
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Video of Princess Madeleine curtsying and Chris genuflecting to the Pope today in the Vatican
Här busar prinsessan Leonore med påven - Nyheter | SVT.se
Why do Catholic royals wear white in the presence of the Pope but everyone else must wear black? Also, why is Leonore wearing white?
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  #303  
Old 04-27-2015, 06:45 PM
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Because a black dress on a toddler would be weird?
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  #304  
Old 04-27-2015, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahedwards2 View Post
Why do Catholic royals wear white in the presence of the Pope but everyone else must wear black? Also, why is Leonore wearing white?
Only certain Catholics may wear white in the presence of the pontiff. Catholic queens and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. I am not sure but I think the Princess Consort of Monaco was also recently granted the privilege du blanc, as it's called. Everyone else should dress exactly as Madeleine and Silvia are dressed(if they are following traditional protocol)

One would rarely if ever dress babies and children in black and certainly not during a papal visit.

ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo! His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!
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  #305  
Old 04-27-2015, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Only certain Catholics may wear white in the presence of the pontiff. Catholic queens and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. I am not sure but I think the Princess Consort of Monaco was also recently granted the privilege du blanc, as it's called. Everyone else should dress exactly as Madeleine and Silvia are dressed(if they are following traditional protocol)

One would rarely if ever dress babies and children in black and certainly not during a papal visit.

ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo! His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!
But my question stands: Why do Catholic queens wear white but everyone else must wear black? What's the custom behind that?
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  #306  
Old 04-27-2015, 08:32 PM
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Beats me!

No, seriously here is a link that can explain it all much better than I can.
Privilège du blanc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #307  
Old 04-27-2015, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahedwards2 View Post
But my question stands: Why do Catholic queens wear white but everyone else must wear black? What's the custom behind that?
Its my understanding that those that wear white are actually practicing Catholics while those of other faiths wear other colors (usually dark or black). The honor of wearing white denotes a practicing Roman Catholic.

The Vatican is a state in itself and the Pope is the Head of State. White denotes that the person visiting is "simpatico" with the state religion.
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  #308  
Old 04-27-2015, 09:49 PM
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Its my understanding that those that wear white are actually practicing Catholics while those of other faiths wear other colors (usually dark or black). The honor of wearing white denotes a practicing Roman Catholic.
This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.
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  #309  
Old 04-27-2015, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jneugeba View Post
This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.
To be honest, I think that Francis would be thinking to himself "why do these folks do this stuffs and why does it matter?' and hope its all over soon so he can just sit and talk with them. The guy that saved rubber bands to return them to be used again sees people as um.. people. He's not really a protocol guy from what I've seen.

I was born, bred and buttered as a Catholic by rote as its what my parents wanted. I learned to respect it but given the choice, I'd hand him a daffodil.

Its not about protocol really with Francis. its the job he's doing.
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  #310  
Old 04-28-2015, 04:07 PM
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No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.
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  #311  
Old 04-28-2015, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.
Duc-Do you know if Maxima is still a practicing Catholic? By that do you know if she attends Mass regularly or on Holy Days of Obligation?
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  #312  
Old 04-28-2015, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.
There was an article in Nice-Matin just last week about how seriously Princess Charlene takes her Catholic faith. It was not merely a symbolic, ceremonial conversion. She attends Mass regularly and is said to be taking a very personal hands on role in planning for the baptism of her babies. Shortly before the birth she made a private pilgrimage to church to ask God's blessings on her husband and for the health of her unborn twins.

At the time she was received into the Church shortly before her wedding it was stressed that it was a personal decision by Charlene, and that she was under no pressure from Albert to convert. As long as she agreed that any children from the marriage would be raised Catholic she could have remained Protestant. She chose not to.

So even though Charlene was not raised a Catholic like Maxima, she is now a very committed member of the Church. And unlike Queen Maxima, Princess Charlene is a Catholic consort married to a Catholic sovereign who rules over a Catholic country and is preparing to baptize and raise her children in the Roman Catholic Church.

I am not suggesting that Maxima has no right to the privilege, but she certainly is not more entitled to it than the Princess of Monaco at this point.
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  #313  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:27 AM
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Being a member of the House of Savoy, hasn't Marina Doria always had the right to where white in the presence of the Pope like all the princesses of that family?


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  #314  
Old 04-29-2015, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo! His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!
I was certainly impressed by Madeleine's curtsey, even carrying a child while pregnant, no sweat, she's been curtsying all her life.

Now as for Chris, even being brought up as an RC would never have prepared him to see the Pope in person, never mind genuflecting. Mind you, the video cut from him in the middle so it's really hard to tell how well he did.

Question: Was he genuflecting or kissing His Holiness's ring?
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  #315  
Old 04-29-2015, 07:31 AM
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I only saw him genuflect, but in a post interview Madeleine stated that her "very moved" husband had kissed the pontiff's ring.


JR76...I always assumed Marina Doria indeed had the privilege.
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  #316  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:08 AM
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What little I saw of Chris it did appear to me that he was going to kiss the pope's ring as he was genuflecting.


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  #317  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:14 AM
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Being a member of the House of Savoy, hasn't Marina Doria always had the right to where white in the presence of the Pope like all the princesses of that family?


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No, when the House of Savoy still was the ruling House, naturally the Queen wore white, as can be seen on this picture: http://images-00.delcampe-static.net...96_001.jpg?v=1

As wife to a reigning King, also Queen Maria José wore white: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6...10d3a43c_o.jpg

But when the Italian monarchy felt. Her daughter-in-law Marina Doria also wore no white until she suddenly decided it was time. Like with Princess Charlène, this was just an adaptation to the (apparently flexible) rules at the Vatican.

Marina Doria, as usual, in black at the Vatican: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/169...R9mF7dfRSLuOL6

Suddenly she changed her mind (it happened only once) and decided to wear white for a ceremony: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/200...xBREASw%2BdYDO

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  #318  
Old 04-29-2015, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Beats me!

No, seriously here is a link that can explain it all much better than I can.
Privilège du blanc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
No, when the House of Savoy still was the ruling House, naturally the Queen wore white, as can be seen on this picture: http://images-00.delcampe-static.net...96_001.jpg?v=1

As wife to a reigning King, also Queen Maria José wore white: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6...10d3a43c_o.jpg

But when the Italian monarchy felt. Her daughter-in-law Marina Doria also wore no white until she suddenly decided it was time. Like with Princess Charlène, this was just an adaptation to the (apparently flexible) rules at the Vatican.

Marina Doria, as usual, in black at the Vatican: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/169...R9mF7dfRSLuOL6

Suddenly she changed her mind (it happened only once) and decided to wear white for a ceremony: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/200...xBREASw%2BdYDO


In the link posted by Moonmaiden (and yes I know about the issues with Wikipedia) it clearly states the the princesses of the House of Savoy had the "Privilège de blanc" a fact supported by pictures that can be dated when looking through the references. I'll give you that this was all while the house was reigning and apparently the Queen according to Duc chose to discard of the privilege afterwards.

Btw Duc isn't the picture you posted of Marie-José and Umberto from their wedding? Does the PDB extend to brides as well and are other brides expected to change into black before meeting the pope?


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  #319  
Old 04-29-2015, 09:26 AM
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In the link posted by Moonmaiden (and yes I know about the issues with Wikipedia) it clearly states the the princesses of the House of Savoy had the "Privilège de blanc" a fact supported by pictures that can be dated when looking through the references. I'll give you that this was all while the house was reigning and apparently the Queen according to Duc chose to discard of the privilege afterwards.

Btw Duc isn't the picture you posted of Marie-José and Umberto from their wedding? Does the PDB extend to brides as well and are other brides expected to change into black before meeting the pope?


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There are several occasions when Queen Maria José wore white at the Vatican, all these dresses look like bridal dresses (long white and veil). Unmarried Princesses of Savoy also appeard white indeed. I believe when these Princesses married (like Iolanda with Conte Calvi di Bergolo, Mafalda with the Landgraf von Hessen, Giovanna with the King of Bulgaria and Maria with a Prince de Bourbon de Parme), they lost that right.

The point was that since the downfall of the Italian monarchy no any Savoy Princess has worn white. This analogue to the very catholic Empress of Austria or the very catholic Queen of Spain (during the sede vacante of the monarchy). All remained in black when visiting the Pope. So why Marina Doria suddenly swapped her black garments for white once, that will remain a mystery.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:31 AM
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This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.
As I understand it, the privilege is reserved only to reigning queens or queen consorts of the designated "Catholic monarchies". As of today, it applies only to Spain, Belgium , Luxembourg and, exceptionally, to princesses of the former Italian royal house. In the past, the queens of France also held the privilege.
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