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  #261  
Old 01-14-2013, 09:48 AM
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I've heard people saying stuff like Charlene's just "permitted" to wear white when visiting the Pope... I don't understand?? Does she need a permission for that??
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  #262  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by christythedreamer View Post
I've heard people saying stuff like Charlene's just "permitted" to wear white when visiting the Pope... I don't understand?? Does she need a permission for that??
Only Catholic Queens are permitted to wear white for the Pope, everyone else should wear black. Before Charlene visited the privilege was only for Queen Sofia of Spain, Paola, Queen of the Belgians, Queen Fabiola of Belgium, and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa of Luxembourg.
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  #263  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:06 AM
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Actually, there have been examples of Catholic Princesses wearing white too - and they weren't wife of Catholic Monarchs.
Although those you listed were indeed the only living royal ladies given the privilege du blanc (as far as I know) before Charlene was granted it too.
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  #264  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by christythedreamer View Post
I've heard people saying stuff like Charlene's just "permitted" to wear white when visiting the Pope... I don't understand?? Does she need a permission for that??
As with meeting any other head of state there is etiquette and protocol involved,the Pope is no different.This 'stuff' is referred to as the Privilege du blanc which is explained in various posts on this thread.

Video footage from Rome Reports

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  #265  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanneeee View Post
I have a question about the privilège du blanc...I've read...that some of the German Fürstinnen and princesses also had the privilège.
Yes, you're correct. According to the Wiki page on the Privilège du blanc:

"Traditionally, this privilege applies, or has applied, to the Empress of Austria and Queen of Hungary, the Queens of Italy, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Bavaria, and Poland, the Grand-Duchesses of Luxembourg and Lithuania, a few German Princesses [whether specific individuals or female members of certain families, and who they were, is not stated], and any female Captain Regent of San Marino.

Some other states, although Catholic monarchies, have never been awarded the privilege, and their female head of state or consorts must therefore wear black in presence of the Pope; [for example] this is the case of the Princess of Monaco [superceded, see below], the Princess of Liechtenstein, ...
"

Dress protocol
is not as "awful and old-fashioned" as some members have been known to claim...
[same source]
"Formal Vatican protocol for papal audiences used to require long-sleeved, formal black garments and a black mantilla for women. However, since the 1980s, papal dress codes (men wearing white tie, women wearing black and covering their heads) have been optional, not obligatory, with many diplomatic guests and heads of state opting to wear suits rather than formal wear...Many female leaders no longer wear the traditional outfits when meeting popes" [including the past two female Irish Presidents].

As to the Princess of Monaco...
[same source]
"The Vatican Press Office has confirmed that “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed [granted the privilege] to dress in white…”"
.
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  #266  
Old 01-15-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post

Dress protocol
is not as "awful and old-fashioned" as some members have been known to claim...
[same source]
"Formal Vatican protocol for papal audiences used to require long-sleeved, formal black garments and a black mantilla for women. However, since the 1980s, papal dress codes (men wearing white tie, women wearing black and covering their heads) have been optional, not obligatory, with many diplomatic guests and heads of state opting to wear suits rather than formal wear...Many female leaders no longer wear the traditional outfits when meeting popes" [including the past two female Irish Presidents].
.
So it's marginally less awful and old-fashioned than it used to be. Well done to the Vatican for moving with the times.
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  #267  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post

So it's marginally less awful and old-fashioned than it used to be. Well done to the Vatican for moving with the times.
Of all the institutions in the world, the Vatican is the least likely to modernise. Expecting such a thing is unrealistic.
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  #268  
Old 01-15-2013, 02:58 PM
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Why shouldn't the Vatican have a dress code for those meeting with the Pope in a private audiance? Most institutions do. I have even on occassion sent people home from work for showing up in what I consider inappropriate clothing.
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  #269  
Old 01-15-2013, 03:08 PM
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I can't understand why a dress-code to meet the Pope should be problematic, nor should it ever be changed in order to be somehow be seen to be modern. I am not religious, but would be more than happy to follow a strict dress-code to show respect for the Pope and the office he holds (I dressed smartly to go to choral evensong the other night!). I'd do the same if I met the Queen or went to someone's wedding or to a funeral - it shows an outward symbol of respect! Imagine turning up to someone's wedding in jeans and t-shirt!
The practicalities of a dress-protocol for meeting the Pope cannot be ignored either....it's either going to have to be black or white and if you stick to black you can't go wrong!
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  #270  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:03 PM
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The heading of this thread I believe is Royals Visiting the Pope and not 'Personal Gripes against the Catholic Church!'

I might remind members of the forum rules when posting!

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ork&page=rules
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  #271  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:15 AM
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If now Princess Charlene was allowed to dress in white when visiting the Pope, why was she wearing black during the Inaugural Mass of Pope Francis?
And since, as I understood, she never converted to Protestantism, can it be possible for queen-to-be Maxima to wear white when she will be visiting the pope in the future?
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  #272  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Marchesina View Post
If now Princess Charlene was allowed to dress in white when visiting the Pope, why was she wearing black during the Inaugural Mass of Pope Francis?
And since, as I understood, she never converted to Protestantism, can it be possible for queen-to-be Maxima to wear white when she will be visiting the pope in the future?
Charlene was received into the Roman Catholic faith prior to her wedding in 2011. Having the right to wear white does not mean you are obliged to wear white, it is still a personal choice.

Maxima may be a Roman Catholic but she is not a Cathloic monarch nor is she married to a Catholic monarch. According to the Vatican statement when Charlen wore white in January the privilege du blanc was for female Catholic monarchs and the wives of Catholic monarchs.
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  #273  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:12 PM
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A Visit is not an Inauguration.
In the past, Princess Grace and Princess Gina were always in black as Serene Highnesses, Queen Sophia, Queen Fabiola and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte
in "blanc" as Royal Highnesses .
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  #274  
Old 03-21-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
A Visit is not an Inauguration.
In the past, Princess Grace and Princess Gina were always in black as Serene Highnesses, Queen Sophia, Queen Fabiola and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte
in "blanc" as Royal Highnesses .
Exactly it wasn't a private visit or audience it was a Papal Inauguration Ceremony Mass which is a very solemn event for Roman Catholics.

I'm pretty sure that the remaining European Royal Houses are aware of Papal protocol.
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  #275  
Old 03-21-2013, 01:15 PM
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Former Princesses of Liechtenstein and Princesses of Monaco wore black because they did not have the privilège du blanc. The privilege was granted to Most Catholic Monarchs, later more commonly known as Most Catholic Majesties, or their wives. The only remaining Most Catholic Majesties are the King of Spain, the King of the Belgians and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title was given to one of their respective ancestors and is hereditary unless taken away by the Pope. To become a Most Catholic Majesty, one was to embody Catholic principles both in your private life as well as your state decisions.

Back in January, the Vatican press office said that the privilege had been extended to Princess Charlene. This would mean that - unless the Vatican changed the rules for Monaco - Prince Albert has become a Most Catholic Majesty.

If Princess Charlene has been granted the privilege, she would have been allowed to wear white for the inaugural mass. Usually, the women granted with the privilege chose to wear black for papal funerals or for private visits (like Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte in 2000).

And regarding Princess Maxima: No, she would not be allowed to wear white as the is not the wife of a Most Catholic Monarch.
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  #276  
Old 03-21-2013, 01:28 PM
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The actual Princess of Monaco knew perfectly the dress code for an Inauguration.
Well done and Amen!
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  #277  
Old 03-21-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Saschana View Post
Former Princesses of Liechtenstein and Princesses of Monaco wore black because they did not have the privilège du blanc. The privilege was granted to Most Catholic Monarchs, later more commonly known as Most Catholic Majesties, or their wives. The only remaining Most Catholic Majesties are the King of Spain, the King of the Belgians and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title was given to one of their respective ancestors and is hereditary unless taken away by the Pope. To become a Most Catholic Majesty, one was to embody Catholic principles both in your private life as well as your state decisions.

Back in January, the Vatican press office said that the privilege had been extended to Princess Charlene. This would mean that - unless the Vatican changed the rules for Monaco - Prince Albert has become a Most Catholic Majesty.

If Princess Charlene has been granted the privilege, she would have been allowed to wear white for the inaugural mass. Usually, the women granted with the privilege chose to wear black for papal funerals or for private visits (like Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte in 2000).

And regarding Princess Maxima: No, she would not be allowed to wear white as the is not the wife of a Most Catholic Monarch.
Thanks so much for the information.
Personally, since seeing her wear black to the Mass this week, I keep thinking that someone messed up and she ended up wearing white at the audience when she probably should not have. Thus the Vatican helped take some of the heat off of her and put out a statement. Realizing her mistake, she wore black this week, since indeed she would be in the presence of women that do have the privilage. A humble opinion of course.
Another thing, I love Pope Francis so far! And I'm not even Catholic!!
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  #278  
Old 03-21-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Saschana View Post
Former Princesses of Liechtenstein and Princesses of Monaco wore black because they did not have the privilège du blanc. The privilege was granted to Most Catholic Monarchs, later more commonly known as Most Catholic Majesties, or their wives. The only remaining Most Catholic Majesties are the King of Spain, the King of the Belgians and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title was given to one of their respective ancestors and is hereditary unless taken away by the Pope. To become a Most Catholic Majesty, one was to embody Catholic principles both in your private life as well as your state decisions.

Back in January, the Vatican press office said that the privilege had been extended to Princess Charlene. This would mean that - unless the Vatican changed the rules for Monaco - Prince Albert has become a Most Catholic Majesty.

If Princess Charlene has been granted the privilege, she would have been allowed to wear white for the inaugural mass. Usually, the women granted with the privilege chose to wear black for papal funerals or for private visits (like Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte in 2000).

And regarding Princess Maxima: No, she would not be allowed to wear white as the is not the wife of a Most Catholic Monarch.
It was anounced in January of this year that Pope Benedict XVI had indeed granted The Princess of Monaco the Privilège du blanc.The Grand Duke of Luxembourg is not a Most Catholic Majesty,he's a Catholic Monarch but a Prince non the less and styled HRH and not H.M.

Prince Albert II is a reigning Catholic Monarch as the head of state of the Principality of Monaco.
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  #279  
Old 03-21-2013, 03:06 PM
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Charlene may have chosen to wear black as it is Lent.
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  #280  
Old 03-21-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
It was anounced in January of this year that Pope Benedict XVI had indeed granted The Princess of Monaco the Privilège du blanc.The Grand Duke of Luxembourg is not a Most Catholic Majesty,he's a Catholic Monarch but a Prince non the less and styled HRH and not H.M.

Prince Albert II is a reigning Catholic Monarch as the head of state of the Principality of Monaco.
Traditionally, you can't be granted the privilège du blanc but you or your husband can be granted the title of a Most Catholic Monarch / Majesty. Originally, the title was Most Catholic Monarch but later changed to Most Catholic Majesty though you did not have to be a Majesty to get the title, case in point was Grand Duchess Charlotte. In fact, the Latin version of the title isRex Catholicissimus which literally translates to Catholic King. Nevertheless there were also Holy Roman and Austrian Emperors who held the title.

Simply being a Catholic monarch is not enough!

Everyone saying that Princess Charlene, despite having the privilège du blanc, was right to wear black because it was a solemn occassion and not an official visit would implicate that Grand Duchess Maria Teresa of Luxembourg and Queen Paola of the Belgians made a grave mistakes. And not only this time but also at the inaugural mass of Pope Benedict XVI as did Queen Sofia of Spain and Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte at the inaugural masses of Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II.

Of course, she could have done it by choice but I'm inclined to be with princess gertrude that the mistake was indeed done in January.
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