Royals Visiting The Pope


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
TRH The Prince and Princess of Wales with H.H Pope John Paul II

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/170/1428/640/16diana.jpg


TSH Prince Rainier III and Princess Grace with H.H Pope John Paul II

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5xodbpDDw1r8zf24o1_1280.jpg

H.M.Queen Beatrix,HRH Prince Claus and H.H Pope John Paul II

http://www.vrijewereld.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/claus-beatrix-pope-joh-paul-II-jesuit.jpg


HRH Prince Carlos Hugo and HRH Princess Irene of the Netherlands with H.H Pope Paul VI

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01702/prince-hugo_1702218c.jpg
 
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Because a black dress on a toddler would be weird?
 
Why do Catholic royals wear white in the presence of the Pope but everyone else must wear black? Also, why is Leonore wearing white?

Only certain Catholics may wear white in the presence of the pontiff. Catholic queens and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. I am not sure but I think the Princess Consort of Monaco was also recently granted the privilege du blanc, as it's called. Everyone else should dress exactly as Madeleine and Silvia are dressed(if they are following traditional protocol)

One would rarely if ever dress babies and children in black and certainly not during a papal visit.

ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo!;) His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!
 
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Only certain Catholics may wear white in the presence of the pontiff. Catholic queens and the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg. I am not sure but I think the Princess Consort of Monaco was also recently granted the privilege du blanc, as it's called. Everyone else should dress exactly as Madeleine and Silvia are dressed(if they are following traditional protocol)

One would rarely if ever dress babies and children in black and certainly not during a papal visit.

ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo!;) His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!

But my question stands: Why do Catholic queens wear white but everyone else must wear black? What's the custom behind that?
 
But my question stands: Why do Catholic queens wear white but everyone else must wear black? What's the custom behind that?

Its my understanding that those that wear white are actually practicing Catholics while those of other faiths wear other colors (usually dark or black). The honor of wearing white denotes a practicing Roman Catholic.

The Vatican is a state in itself and the Pope is the Head of State. White denotes that the person visiting is "simpatico" with the state religion.
 
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Its my understanding that those that wear white are actually practicing Catholics while those of other faiths wear other colors (usually dark or black). The honor of wearing white denotes a practicing Roman Catholic.

This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.
 
This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.

To be honest, I think that Francis would be thinking to himself "why do these folks do this stuffs and why does it matter?' and hope its all over soon so he can just sit and talk with them. The guy that saved rubber bands to return them to be used again sees people as um.. people. He's not really a protocol guy from what I've seen.

I was born, bred and buttered as a Catholic by rote as its what my parents wanted. I learned to respect it but given the choice, I'd hand him a daffodil.

Its not about protocol really with Francis. its the job he's doing.
 
No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.
 
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No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.
Duc-Do you know if Maxima is still a practicing Catholic? By that do you know if she attends Mass regularly or on Holy Days of Obligation?
 
No one knows what the Privilège du Blanc exactly is. It has always been believed that it was granted to:
- Catholic female Sovereigns
- Catholic female consorts to Catholic Sovereigns

The Princess of Monaco or the Princess of Liechtenstein have never worn white. Also extremely Catholic and very Grande Dames as Empress Zita of Austria has always worn black. Also Marina Doria, the wife of Prince Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia never wore white. But suddenly she and Charlène appeared dressed in full white. The last time (Charlène de Monaco) the Vatican Press Office stated: “… in accordance with prescribed ceremonial of the Vatican for Catholic sovereigns, the Princess was allowed to dress in white…”

Princess Charlène was raised as Protestant and only converted to Catholicism for her marriage to Prince Albert. Queen Máxima was born, baptized and raised Catholic. She went to Catholic primary school, to Catholic university. The Zorreguietas had a family priest (Padre Rafael Braun sj, whom also assisted at the royal wedding in 2002). Queen Máxima did NOT convert to Protestantism and obtained an official dispensation from the Church to marry the King.

With this in mind, it would be very weird to deny this Catholic-born and still Catholic spouse the privilège which was given to a Consort whom had nothing at all to do with catholiciscm or catholic teachings until she became engaged with the Prince of Monaco. Anyway, we will see. The examples of Marina Doria and Charlène have shown that the Vatican has flexibility in this matter.

There was an article in Nice-Matin just last week about how seriously Princess Charlene takes her Catholic faith. It was not merely a symbolic, ceremonial conversion. She attends Mass regularly and is said to be taking a very personal hands on role in planning for the baptism of her babies. Shortly before the birth she made a private pilgrimage to church to ask God's blessings on her husband and for the health of her unborn twins.

At the time she was received into the Church shortly before her wedding it was stressed that it was a personal decision by Charlene, and that she was under no pressure from Albert to convert. As long as she agreed that any children from the marriage would be raised Catholic she could have remained Protestant. She chose not to.

So even though Charlene was not raised a Catholic like Maxima, she is now a very committed member of the Church. And unlike Queen Maxima, Princess Charlene is a Catholic consort married to a Catholic sovereign who rules over a Catholic country and is preparing to baptize and raise her children in the Roman Catholic Church.

I am not suggesting that Maxima has no right to the privilege, but she certainly is not more entitled to it than the Princess of Monaco at this point.
 
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Being a member of the House of Savoy, hasn't Marina Doria always had the right to where white in the presence of the Pope like all the princesses of that family?


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ETA: Non-Catholic Madeleine curtsies much more gracefully than her Catholic husband genuflects, imo!;) His Holiness seemed enchanted with Leonore and I don't blame him a bit...she is sooo pretty!
I was certainly impressed by Madeleine's curtsey, even carrying a child while pregnant, no sweat, she's been curtsying all her life.

Now as for Chris, even being brought up as an RC would never have prepared him to see the Pope in person, never mind genuflecting. Mind you, the video cut from him in the middle so it's really hard to tell how well he did.

Question: Was he genuflecting or kissing His Holiness's ring?
 
:previous: I only saw him genuflect, but in a post interview Madeleine stated that her "very moved" husband had kissed the pontiff's ring.


JR76...I always assumed Marina Doria indeed had the privilege.
 
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What little I saw of Chris it did appear to me that he was going to kiss the pope's ring as he was genuflecting.


LaRae
 
Being a member of the House of Savoy, hasn't Marina Doria always had the right to where white in the presence of the Pope like all the princesses of that family?


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No, when the House of Savoy still was the ruling House, naturally the Queen wore white, as can be seen on this picture: http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/273/571/496_001.jpg?v=1

As wife to a reigning King, also Queen Maria José wore white: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6737168935_d210d3a43c_o.jpg

But when the Italian monarchy felt. Her daughter-in-law Marina Doria also wore no white until she suddenly decided it was time. Like with Princess Charlène, this was just an adaptation to the (apparently flexible) rules at the Vatican.

Marina Doria, as usual, in black at the Vatican: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/16...2QETFxAMmalY6n7lBhA4KwRW1Ujh8o4R9mF7dfRSLuOL6

Suddenly she changed her mind (it happened only once) and decided to wear white for a ceremony: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/2009788-pope-john-paul-ii-acknowledges-bishops-and-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=OCUJ5gVf7YdJQI2Xhkc2QM%2FGwPDH6AwgTSnLJ6TYDU1KQlZL1AXcxBREASw%2BdYDO

:flowers:
 
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:previous:Beats me!:lol:

No, seriously here is a link that can explain it all much better than I can.
Privilège du blanc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



No, when the House of Savoy still was the ruling House, naturally the Queen wore white, as can be seen on this picture: http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/273/571/496_001.jpg?v=1

As wife to a reigning King, also Queen Maria José wore white: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7166/6737168935_d210d3a43c_o.jpg

But when the Italian monarchy felt. Her daughter-in-law Marina Doria also wore no white until she suddenly decided it was time. Like with Princess Charlène, this was just an adaptation to the (apparently flexible) rules at the Vatican.

Marina Doria, as usual, in black at the Vatican: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/16...2QETFxAMmalY6n7lBhA4KwRW1Ujh8o4R9mF7dfRSLuOL6

Suddenly she changed her mind (it happened only once) and decided to wear white for a ceremony: http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/20...2QM/GwPDH6AwgTSnLJ6TYDU1KQlZL1AXcxBREASw+dYDO

:flowers:


In the link posted by Moonmaiden (and yes I know about the issues with Wikipedia) it clearly states the the princesses of the House of Savoy had the "Privilège de blanc" a fact supported by pictures that can be dated when looking through the references. I'll give you that this was all while the house was reigning and apparently the Queen according to Duc chose to discard of the privilege afterwards.

Btw Duc isn't the picture you posted of Marie-José and Umberto from their wedding? Does the PDB extend to brides as well and are other brides expected to change into black before meeting the pope?


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In the link posted by Moonmaiden (and yes I know about the issues with Wikipedia) it clearly states the the princesses of the House of Savoy had the "Privilège de blanc" a fact supported by pictures that can be dated when looking through the references. I'll give you that this was all while the house was reigning and apparently the Queen according to Duc chose to discard of the privilege afterwards.

Btw Duc isn't the picture you posted of Marie-José and Umberto from their wedding? Does the PDB extend to brides as well and are other brides expected to change into black before meeting the pope?


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

There are several occasions when Queen Maria José wore white at the Vatican, all these dresses look like bridal dresses (long white and veil). Unmarried Princesses of Savoy also appeard white indeed. I believe when these Princesses married (like Iolanda with Conte Calvi di Bergolo, Mafalda with the Landgraf von Hessen, Giovanna with the King of Bulgaria and Maria with a Prince de Bourbon de Parme), they lost that right.

The point was that since the downfall of the Italian monarchy no any Savoy Princess has worn white. This analogue to the very catholic Empress of Austria or the very catholic Queen of Spain (during the sede vacante of the monarchy). All remained in black when visiting the Pope. So why Marina Doria suddenly swapped her black garments for white once, that will remain a mystery.
 
This is not quite accurate. The privlidge is reserved for certain spouses of reigning Catholic sovereigns. Queen Maxima, for instance, would not wear white even though she is Catholic - she is not married to a Catholic King. However not all ruling Catholics appear to have the privilege - Lichtenstein and Lethoso are two that have never appeared in white, and Monaco, until one instance very recently, also had historically never appeared in white.

As I understand it, the privilege is reserved only to reigning queens or queen consorts of the designated "Catholic monarchies". As of today, it applies only to Spain, Belgium , Luxembourg and, exceptionally, to princesses of the former Italian royal house. In the past, the queens of France also held the privilege.
 
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Duc-Do you know if Maxima is still a practicing Catholic? By that do you know if she attends Mass regularly or on Holy Days of Obligation?

Your question has been asked before in these forums and the answer honestly is that nobody really knows for sure. All I can say is that Maxima was married in the Protestant church, baptized her three daughters in the Protestant church, and has been seen attending Protestant services with her husband. She claims though that she has not converted and that she remains a Catholic.
 
If she were a Catholic there's no way she'd agree for her children to be raised outside the Faith. She may claim to still be Catholic but a lot of people claim to be Catholic and rarely darken the door to Church except maybe on Easter/Christmas...I am guessing this has something to do with her not being extended the privledge of wearing white.
 
If she were a Catholic there's no way she'd agree for her children to be raised outside the Faith. She may claim to still be Catholic but a lot of people claim to be Catholic and rarely darken the door to Church except maybe on Easter/Christmas...I am guessing this has something to do with her not being extended the privledge of wearing white.


Even if she was a practicing Catholic she would still have to wear black. It has nothing to do with her religion but instead with that of her country which by tradition has been fiercely Protestant.


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Even if she was a practicing Catholic she would still have to wear black. It has nothing to do with her religion but instead with that of her country which by tradition has been fiercely Protestant.


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Eeerrrhhhh.... however the House of Orange-Nassau has a protestant tradition, the Roman-Catholics are the biggest Christian denomination in the Netherlands. Unless there is a "state religion" no any country can claim to be "catholic" these days....

The once so protestant House of Orange-Nassau has a lot of non-Protestant descendants from Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard:

Queen Máxima
Countess Joanna Zaria (baptized by a former Catholic Priest but not registered in any Church)
Countess Emma Luana (baptized by a former Catholic Priest but not registered in any Church)
Princess Irene (converted to Catholicism)
The Duke of Parma
Princess Luisa
Princess Cecilia
Princess Margarita
Tjalling ten Cate
Julia ten Cate
Paola ten Cate
Prince Jaime
Princess Viktória
Princess Zita
Princess María Carolina
Albert Brenninmeijer
Alaïa-Maria Brenninkmeijer
Princess Marilène
Princess Christina (converted to Catholicism)
Bernardo Guillermo
Isabel Guillermo
Julian Guillermo
Nicolàs Guillermo
Juliana Guillermo

:eek: :flowers:
 
Come om Duc et Pair, you know as well as i do that even though there are catholic members of the dutch RF, the core people are protestants and are so with conviction.
That the NL largest religious population is catholic has always been the case, but that has never had any impact on the Oranje family (it has been a long existing idea that that is one of the reasons why the dutch RF was never (and still isn't) as popular with the catholic dutch people as with the protestant/other christian denominations; Koningsdag is celebrated in the catholic south because it's a free day off work, not because of the Oranjes)

The privilege de blanc, when it was rigidly followed, was bestowed to specific queens of specific monarchies, and it was just a privilege, not a must to wear white even if one had the privilege.
Nowadays the Vatican doesn't seem that focussed on the color anymore, so not really much to discuss anyway..

obviously imo
 
It was just an illustration that the once staunch Protestant Dutch royal family (Princess Beatrix' own grandmother had an immense distrust in "those papists", only after WWII it changed a bit) has now more catholic family members than Protestants. That is all, dank u. The King also does come over to me as someone who does not give a lot about the Protestant tradition and feels as easy in a Catholic service as in a Protestant one.
 
As I understand it, the privilege is reserved only to reigning queens or queen consorts of the designated "Catholic monarchies". As of today, it applies only to Spain, Belgium , Luxembourg and, exceptionally, to princesses of the former Italian royal house. In the past, the queens of France also held the privilege.

And the Princess of Monaco, now it seems. Now we can wait for the Fürstin von and zu Liechtenstein to wear white. It is totally unclear.
 
If she were a Catholic there's no way she'd agree for her children to be raised outside the Faith. She may claim to still be Catholic but a lot of people claim to be Catholic and rarely darken the door to Church except maybe on Easter/Christmas...I am guessing this has something to do with her not being extended the privledge of wearing white.

You'd be wrong, though. I believe I read that one of the stipulations in her marrying W-A was that the children were to be raised Protestant. This is particularly important given their eldest child will be queen one day, and to my knowledge the monarch of the Netherlands has always been a Protestant, at least for the last 400 years, anyway. Maxima can practice her own faith as she sees fit, but when you marry the heir to the throne, some things must be conceded upon. If you love someone, and it's obvious Maxima and W-A love each other, you meet each other halfway.

Interfaith relationships, particularly between Catholics and other religions, are hardly rare. I know of three that are between Catholics and Jews, and in all cases, the agreement was boys are to be raised Jewish, girls as Catholics.
 
You'd be wrong, though. I believe I read that one of the stipulations in her marrying W-A was that the children were to be raised Protestant. This is particularly important given their eldest child will be queen one day, and to my knowledge the monarch of the Netherlands has always been a Protestant, at least for the last 400 years, anyway. Maxima can practice her own faith as she sees fit, but when you marry the heir to the throne, some things must be conceded upon. If you love someone, and it's obvious Maxima and W-A love each other, you meet each other halfway.

Interfaith relationships, particularly between Catholics and other religions, are hardly rare. I know of three that are between Catholics and Jews, and in all cases, the agreement was boys are to be raised Jewish, girls as Catholics.

If you marry in a Catholic Church you are required to agree to raise your children as Catholics. Since this was not the case for Max/WA, it's not an issue.
Not that most Catholic Diocese would be pleased about Max not wedding in in the catholic rite (it is a sacrament) and raising the family outside the faith.
 
You'd be wrong, though. I believe I read that one of the stipulations in her marrying W-A was that the children were to be raised Protestant. This is particularly important given their eldest child will be queen one day, and to my knowledge the monarch of the Netherlands has always been a Protestant, at least for the last 400 years, anyway. Maxima can practice her own faith as she sees fit, but when you marry the heir to the throne, some things must be conceded upon. If you love someone, and it's obvious Maxima and W-A love each other, you meet each other halfway.

Interfaith relationships, particularly between Catholics and other religions, are hardly rare. I know of three that are between Catholics and Jews, and in all cases, the agreement was boys are to be raised Jewish, girls as Catholics.


You are making my point for me. If she were serious about her faith she would not have agreed to raise her children Protestant (I don't care who it is she would marry)....I realizes the ins and outs of marrying who she did and that the children would need to be raised in that Church much like the heirs in the BRF. However that's not my point.

If you have an interfaith Catholic marriage that is recognized by the Church as valid and Sacramental then you are required to state you will do your best to see them raised in the Catholic Faith. If the parents had some sort of other agreement as you mentioned then they are not living up to what they agreed to. It doesn't surprise me...there are many people who self identify as Catholic (or Protestant) yet they don't practice their faith as they should.

LaRae
 
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