Royal Protocol and Etiquette


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People are confused on all of this...Meghan won’t likely walk behind Harry on her introduction tours. Not even Catherine walked behind William when they did these tours. They walked together.

I’m actually glad Meghan waved with some energy, because the Cambridge’s and Harry’s public waves are pretty weak and non interesting. The best royal waves were from The Queen, Queen Mother and Princess Margaret.
 
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But I did notice that it was often Harry leading Meghan to the forefront, whether with a touch on the back or waiting until she shook hands or walked into a room. He seemed to be taking more of a gentleman's approach and less of a prince on an engagement approach. I certainly didn't mind it but he may get a reminder to stick closer to protocol on formal engagements.
 
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But I did notice that it was often Harry leading Meghan to the forefront, whether with a touch on the back or waiting until she shook hands or walked into a room. He seemed to be taking more of a gentleman's approach and less of a prince on an engagement approach. I certainly didn't mind it but he may get a reminder to stick closer to protocol on formal engagements.

I suspect he will, but he's probably going to be looking back and checking on her a lot. :lol:

Did you read that article btw? I think some stuff is wrong. I don't think while the Queen is alive that her younger children has to curtsey to William and Harry. So Meghan will not have to curtsey to George and Charlotte once married. And is it true that as an American, she doesn't have to curtsey to anyone until she's UK citizen?
 
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An interesting question - I love these issues of etiquette!

From Debrett's - 'long evening gloves are traditionally worn at balls and dinners when the dress code is ‘white tie’ but are no longer compulsory at many events. They work best with sleeveless dresses but older women may wear them with cap or short sleeves. With long sleeves it is better to dispense with gloves, rather than wear short ones. Gloves should be worn en route to an event, in a receiving line, when shaking hands and dancing. They are removed when eating (even a canapé) and at the dinner table – they should be taken off finger by finger and rested on the lap under the napkin.'
 
Glad that protocol changed; it looks so much better without gloves!
 
An interesting question - I love these issues of etiquette!

From Debrett's - 'long evening gloves are traditionally worn at balls and dinners when the dress code is ‘white tie’ but are no longer compulsory at many events. They work best with sleeveless dresses but older women may wear them with cap or short sleeves. With long sleeves it is better to dispense with gloves, rather than wear short ones. Gloves should be worn en route to an event, in a receiving line, when shaking hands and dancing. They are removed when eating (even a canapé) and at the dinner table – they should be taken off finger by finger and rested on the lap under the napkin.'

thanks for checking this! it makes sense. kate is a newer generation royal and was also born out of the family so i am glad she went for what seemed comfortable for her. i think her gown looks lovely as is, without gloves.
 
Well I doubt there will be many royal quartet engagements, thankfully. Either way, Meghan doesn't need Kate to tell her where to walk. That's protocol she will have learned from her husband and staff.

+1. Not to mention, Kate isn't exactly a pro at protocol seeing as how she tried to walk ahead of both Charles and Camilla at one of the Jubilee celebrations and had to be pulled back by William.

Like you, Abbigail, I think Meghan would be best served to listen to her husband (to be) and staffers.


The more experienced royals can use their discretion but for people like Meghan it’s best to just go by the book

I'm curious what you mean by "people like Meghan?"

Also, I don't remember Meghan saying Kate had been "invaluable," just that she had been friendly and welcoming. But I could totally be wrong there. (Actually, I just checked the transcript of the interview and all Meghan said about Kate was "she's been wonderful.")
 
Lady G when did William have to pull Kate back? I just don't remember it...any idea of a time or ?


LaRae
 
Lady G when did William have to pull Kate back? I just don't remember it...any idea of a time or ?


LaRae


I've been looking, but I can't find the gif now (if I find it I'll PM you). It's during the Jubilee when she's wearing that red dress that Kim K wore. They are all on the Spirit of Chartwell barge waiting to disembark (or maybe just waiting to go down some stairs). It's raining so they all have umbrellas. Kate and William (and probably Harry behind them) are standing to the right (in the picture) and the queen goes down the stairs. She was meant to be followed by Charles and Camilla who were standing behind the queen, but Kate starts to cross in front of Camilla/cuts off Camilla to go down the stairs. William pulls her back indicating that she needs to wait, then Camilla and Charles go down. Then Kate goes down the stairs ahead of William (he indicates she should go), but to top it off, she pokes him in the head with her umbrella.
 
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Oh very interesting Lady G! If you find it please do PM me!



LaRae
 
I've been looking, but I can't find the gif now (if I find it I'll PM you). It's during the Jubilee when she's wearing that red dress that Kim K wore. They are all on the Spirit of Chartwell barge waiting to disembark (or maybe just waiting to go down some stairs). It's raining so they all have umbrellas. Kate and William (and probably Harry behind them) are standing to the right (in the picture) and the queen goes down the stairs. She was meant to be followed by Charles and Camilla who were standing behind the queen, but Kate starts to cross in front of Camilla/cuts off Camilla to go down the stairs. William pulls her back indicating that she needs to wait, then Camilla and Charles go down. Then Kate goes down the stairs ahead of William (he indicates she should go), but to top it off, she pokes him in the head with her umbrella.


Is this the incident?


To me it looks like the Cambridges and Harry were immediately behind the Queen and were waiting for Charles and Camilla before disembarking; William gets Kate to move the side, but more because she didn’t realize she was blocking Charles’ way (Harry is blocking Camilla’s for a moment too).

She does seem to poke both William and Harry with her umbrella, and Camilla pokes Harry with his; the umbrellas are big and Kate and Camilla are shorter than William and Harry.
 
Hmmm I don't think it was Kate not following protocol or not knowing about protocol..I think it was just the confusion of all those folks milling around trying to get down the narrow stairs.

Even Harry got trapped and tried to figure out a way to move back so he could go down behind William/Kate.


LaRae
 
Is this the incident?


To me it looks like the Cambridges and Harry were immediately behind the Queen and were waiting for Charles and Camilla before disembarking; William gets Kate to move the side, but more because she didn’t realize she was blocking Charles’ way (Harry is blocking Camilla’s for a moment too).

She does seem to poke both William and Harry with her umbrella, and Camilla pokes Harry with his; the umbrellas are big and Kate and Camilla are shorter than William and Harry.


That's the one - thanks! And, my mistake, it was the guy wearing the trench coat with the earpiece who pulls both William and Kate aside to let Charles and Camilla pass first. IMO, W&K were definitely about to go down the stairs first. The guy (IMO) is even shaking his hand, like, no no, wait, and pointing as if W&K need to step back.
 
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+1. Not to mention, Kate isn't exactly a pro at protocol seeing as how she tried to walk ahead of both Charles and Camilla at one of the Jubilee celebrations and had to be pulled back by William.

Like you, Abbigail, I think Meghan would be best served to listen to her husband (to be) and staffers.

To be fair, the Jubilee celebrations were just a year after Kate and William were married. They've been married almost 7 years now, so I'm pretty sure Kate has a better handle on how things are done. As for Meghan, of course she should listen to her husband and staffers, but that doesn't mean she can't also get advice from others. Kate can offer a unique perspective that neither the staffers, nor Harry can give her and if I were Meghan (or anyone marrying into the royal family), I'd be happy to take all the help I could get. Especially from someone that has experienced what I'm about to go through.

Is this the incident?


To me it looks like the Cambridges and Harry were immediately behind the Queen and were waiting for Charles and Camilla before disembarking; William gets Kate to move the side, but more because she didn’t realize she was blocking Charles’ way (Harry is blocking Camilla’s for a moment too).

She does seem to poke both William and Harry with her umbrella, and Camilla pokes Harry with his; the umbrellas are big and Kate and Camilla are shorter than William and Harry.

That's what it looks like to me as well. There was a bit of a bottleneck at the stairs and everyone seems a little confused about what's going on. Even Harry takes a step towards the stairs before he realizes that Charles is behind him.
 
In response to concerns about Meghan walking in front of Harry/Kate walking in front of William, I'm just going to leave these here. I would pay money to see William Hanson go back in time and tell the Queen Mother that she was making a faux pas.



 
Did you read that article btw? I think some stuff is wrong. I don't think while the Queen is alive that her younger children has to curtsey to William and Harry. So Meghan will not have to curtsey to George and Charlotte once married. And is it true that as an American, she doesn't have to curtsey to anyone until she's UK citizen?
Formally children of the monarch are higher in the order of precedence than grandchildren. In practice, the queen seems to make an exception for the children of the Prince of Wales but I cannot imagine that being to the extent that curtseys would be required (until William is king and Catherine his queen) - even though William and Harry will (officially) be higher in the order of precedence than their uncles and aunt when their father becomes king.

Did princess Margaret ever curtsey to her nephews and niece?
 
I would think Princess Margaret would curtesy to the PoW.



LaRae
 
This Daily Mail article is repeating a load of information that we know to be false. Members of the British Royal Family do not bow/curtsey to each other - they only bow/curtsey to the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh. We have seen this in practice - the Queen and DoE are greeted with a bow/curtsey and a cheek kiss, while other members of the family are greeted with just the cheek kiss.

A video of this can be seen here: here

At the start of the clip, you see Zara embracing the PoW with an embrace of the shoulders and a cheek kiss, then at the 20 second mark you see her greeting the Queen Mother with a cheek kiss then curtsey, Tim Laurence greeting the Queen with a cheek kiss then bow, Peter Phillips greeting the Queen with a bow then cheek kiss, and finally Zara greeting the Queen with a cheek kiss then curtsey.
 
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I always say that a révérence or a bow are optional and never an obligation. At the same time such acts have nothing to do with "who is higher in the pecking order". It is just an oldfashioned way of greeting someone.

This weekend saw Frau Karin Kneissl, the Austrian Minister of Foreign Affairs, making a Ye Olde Fashioned Habsburg Era révérence to a well-known Russian gentleman: picture.

At the same time this shows that making révérences or bows were not at all restricted to royals. Until roughly the 1960's the local nobleman could expect the lifting of hats, nods with the head and ladies making a knick.
 
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I always say that a révérence or a bow are optional and never an obligation. At the same time such acts have nothing to do with "who is higher in the pecking order". It is just an oldfashioned way of greeting someone.

This weekend saw Frau Karin Kneissl, the Austrian Minister of Foreign Affairs, making a Ye Olde Fashioned Habsburg Era révérence to a well-known Russian gentleman: picture.

At the same time this shows that making révérences or bows were not at all restricted to royals. Until roughly the 1960's the local nobleman could expect the lifting of hats, nods with the head and ladies making a knick.

Considering that the “ well-known Russian gentleman” in question behaves and is treated like a Tsar in his own country, the Austrian minister’s reverence is not that surprising !
 
It would be interesting if the Austrians would ask the Habsburgs to return.


LaRae
 
It would be interesting if the Austrians would ask the Habsburgs to return.


LaRae




That is most unlikely in Austria, and less unlikely in Hungary. Of course the Austrians acknowledge the illustrious history of the Habsburgers and they are met with politesse and esteem, which we could witness at the funerals for Empress Zita and Archduke Otto.

But alike with what we saw in Romania, at the funeral of King Michael: being held in esteem, or being popular even, does not necessarily translate in a wish for a restoration.

Having said that: Frau Kneissl is from the most nationalistic party of Austria. One would think the FPÖ probably has a fling to the days of the kaiserliche und königliche Monarchie but even that party seems to have zero desire for it.
 
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Agree
The last Habsbourg official funerals were Archduke Otto's. The President of Austria was there and for the very last time in the Cathedral we heard the Kaiser Huymn.
The actual head Karl is a marionette.
His Brother tried to be popular in Hungary but failed.
Since years some nostalgics are asking a Beatification of the last Empress Zita. But no success.
The Beatification of the last Emperor Karl was a personal will of Pope jean Paul II
 
Her (Zita's) cause for beatification has been opened though..she is currently called a servant of God.


LaRae
 
I'm in agreement with you. It seems that every time a royal exhibits being human, its breaking protocol. If every royal stuck to a strict protocol of behavior every second they're in public, they'd be accused of being robotic. Go figure.
 
This whole "breaks protocol" lie needs to stop. What is it these days with saying untruths flat out that everyone seems to be doing? :mad:
I'm in agreement with you. It seems that every time a royal exhibits being human, its breaking protocol. If every royal stuck to a strict protocol of behavior every second they're in public, they'd be accused of being robotic. Go figure.
I have to agree that the continual harping about 'breaking protocol', 'breaking tradition' or breaking rules has now become just plain tedious if, for no other reason than the "reporter" invariably gets it wrong.

Meghan not wearing hosiery when with the Queen would be bad manners and show a disrespect for her because that is a "standard" that HM was raised with and maintains to this day, therefore, it is a no-brainer she expects her family to wear it in her presence. I am certain she has never said anything about Meghan's general habit of not wearing hosiery breaking the rules0 or she would be wearing them religiously. I expect to see Meghan wearing hosiery every time I see her wearing a hat!

As to Harry and Meghan holding hands PDA? It gives me a bit of a giggle when I hear or read about Harry and Meghan holding hands, putting a hand in the centre of each other's backs or gently rubbing an arm or hand. The breathless gasps of faux horror or righteous outrage are extremely entertaining. Anyone would think they were clasped in a passionate embrace of the kind that is "R" rated!

Now to the one aspect that does irritate me, namely breaking protocol. When a car pulls up to the red carpet, the senior guest (Harry) should be on the right and their partner gets out on the left (Meghan). Yes folks, the lady gets out of the car and walks around to join her husband! This is not a matter of ladies first but rather Harry (senior royal) goes first and Meghan (partner) comes behind them and follows along the reception line. Everything goes like clockwork and Harry can introduce Meghan to someone special or some such, however much as I adore watching this couple this 'Protocol' is the one thing that makes me cringe.

It makes things awkward with Harry and Meghan going backwards and forwards around each other, worse still, it leads to the total collapse of the reception line and the organisers have lost complete control. The person in charge of greeting them and introducing them along the reception line watches in horror as VIP's guests get missed and it is all just messy. This is the one thing Meghan does that makes me want to pull my hair out. She has a little handshake here and then darts over the other side and repeats . . . just like they are doing a walkabout and Harry needs a darned good clip around the ear or kick in the pants for not sorting this out from the very beginning.
 
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I have to agree that the continual harping about 'breaking protocol', 'breaking tradition' or breaking rules has now become just plain tedious if, for no other reason than the "reporter" invariably gets it wrong.

Meghan not wearing hosiery when with the Queen would be bad manners and show a disrespect for her because that is a "standard" that HM was raised with and maintains to this day, therefore, it is a no-brainer she expects her family to wear it in her presence. I am certain she has never said anything about Meghan's general habit of not wearing hosiery breaking the rules0 or she would be wearing them religiously. I expect to see Meghan wearing hosiery every time I see her wearing a hat!

As to Harry and Meghan holding hands PDA? It gives me a bit of a giggle when I hear or read about Harry and Meghan holding hands, putting a hand in the centre of each other's backs or gently rubbing an arm or hand. The breathless gasps of faux horror or righteous outrage are extremely entertaining. Anyone would think they were clasped in a passionate embrace of the kind that is "R" rated!

Now to the one aspect that does irritate me, namely breaking protocol. When a car pulls up to the red carpet, the senior guest (Harry) should be on the right and their partner gets out on the left (Meghan). Yes folks, the lady gets out of the car and walks around to join her husband! This is not a matter of ladies first but rather Harry (senior royal) goes first and Meghan (partner) comes behind them and follows along the reception line. Everything goes like clockwork and Harry can introduce Meghan to someone special or some such, however much as I adore watching this couple this 'Protocol' is the one thing that makes me cringe.

It makes things awkward with Harry and Meghan going backwards and forwards around each other, worse still, it leads to the total collapse of the reception line and the organisers have lost complete control. The person in charge of greeting them and introducing them along the reception line watches in horror as VIP's guests get missed and it is all just messy. This is the one thing Meghan does that makes me want to pull my hair out. She has a little handshake here and then darts over the other side and repeats . . . just like they are doing a walkabout and Harry needs a darned good clip around the ear or kick in the pants for not sorting this out from the very beginning.

I find Meghan's technique is when introducing herself to a small group of people is usually she greets everyone first in the group and then initiates a groups conversation with everyone that allows everyone in the conversation to jump in.

My theory on why Meghan is usually led to go first where there is a line up of people to meet is that it helps to hurry her along knowing that Harry is right behind her and sometimes once they are both done greeting everyone once again start the group conversation format. We usually she her doing down the line and greeting people after Harry at more traditional events like the services at Westminster, there she usually ends up talked to everyone for a bit too long and Harry has to step in and remind her they have to get going. The most obvious example of this was the clip at the end of the Anzac service where Meghan was left talking to a group while William and Harry waited off to the side for her to finish before Harry had to cut in so they could get in line to exit the Abbey.
 
^Indeed. A few royal reporters have discussed that Meghan takes her time and really chats with people. Same with Kate. Whereas their old hand husbands tend to do more brief interactions to better work the crowd although Harry is known to really get into walkabouts and take longer than other royals. So you KNOW Meghan is one chatty girl if she is doing so more than Harry!

Omid and Emily discussed that Meghan hates to disappoint people and will really try her hardest to meet everyone. It is sweet and I hope she never loses that drive!

I have noticed that formal welcomes can look a bit messy though simply because Harry often pushes Meghan first and then they do a side step a bit which throws off the dignitaries and such as MARG said. They will get it smoothed out though.
 
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