Royal Courtiers, Ladies in Waiting, Staff, etc

[SirGyamfi1]

On ladies in waiting / hofdames conversation. It is interesting to note that neither The Duchess of Cornwall or the Duchess of Cambridge currently have any ladies in waiting of their own even though the former Princess of Wales did, as so the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. I wonder what this means for the future of the lady in waiting role.

Duchess of Cornwall has ladies in waiting, but Kate doesn’t maybe because she doesn’t need one right now

 

[Somebody]

It seems especially odd given that the Queen herself was a trailblazer in being the first commoner-born (Swedish) queen since the Middle Ages.

Maybe that's why they felt that she needed a rather 'noble' court especially because she didn't have the background herself.

 

[tommy100]

Duchess of Cornwall has ladies in waiting, but Kate doesn’t maybe because she doesn’t need one right now

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

Sorry, I thought Amanda was a lady in waiting. Got that wrong. As for Sweden, regardless of how “egalitarian” the country seems to be, and the fact that the nobility has been reduced to a being a sort of “private members club”, it still has a monarchy and some nobles will be part of court life.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

When Queen Beatrix abdicated, all courtiers offered their position into His new Majesty'a gracious consideration, as the Constitution says "The King shall organize his own House".

Queen Máxima has lesser hofdames than Queen Beatrix, from 9 back to 5, which was explained as: the new Queen is a Consort. That means no investitures of new ministers, no credentials of new ambassadors, no audiences to dignitaries. There simply are fewer Hofdames needed. Undoubtedly the number will double again under Queen Catharina-Amalia, as she will have the position and the agenda of a head-of-state indeed.

Her dames are all from nobility or patriciate: Marie-Louise Alexandra ("Bibi") gravin Van Zuylen van Nijevelt - jonkvrouw Den Beer Poortugael, Ottoline Antoinette ("Lieke") Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd, Anna Magdalena ("Annemijn") Crince le Roy - Van Munster van Heuven, Joséphine Maria ("Pien") van Karnebeek - Thijssen

Correction: in the meantime Ottoline Antoinette Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd has offered her resignation as hofdame because of her advanced age (75 years) and the King has not yet appointed a new lady.

This hofdame was special as it was the one who guided a certain Ms Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti into royal life since 2001. Picture: https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0082943700/w.jpg

 

[JR76]

Interesting, so a large proportion of the Swedish upper class consists of nobility? Hiring ladies-in-waiting with nursing backgrounds seems like it would also serve the Queen's later dementia care work well.

I have no idea about numbers. It would also be impossible to say given that nobody knows how big the upper-class is and how to define it. It's a case of knowing who's "one of us" and who isn't.
Many nobles aren't upper-class and many members of the upper-class aren't nobles.

Maybe that's why they felt that she needed a rather 'noble' court especially because she didn't have the background herself.

I doubt that it's a conscious choice to hire nobles. Of the Queen's first two ladies-in-waiting one was a commoner and one was a noble married to a commoner. Added to that was the First Lady of the Court, the formidable Countess Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister.
It's most likely the consequence of the recruitment process which seems to been done exclusively through networking. As my example earlier in the discussion shows many of the ladies are related to each other or have other courtiers in the family.
What's noteworthy is that a commoner has never been neither Mistress of the Robes nor First Lady of the Court.

I've never heard of Camilla having a lady in waiting so would be interested to hear who they are if she does? I know she often was accompanied by Amanda McManus who was her Private Secretary.

Interesting about Queen Silvia, I never really knew how full of nobles the Swedish court was, which does seem odd given the public perception of Sweden.

The Queen's Household has had many nobles through the years, but both the King's Household and the Crown Princess House are to my knowledge staffed, either exclusively or at least overwhelmingly, with commoners.

It's worth noting that in Sweden a commoner (ofrälse) is anyone that isn't part of the nobility (frälset or adel) or the Royal family.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Diane de Poitiers started her 'career ' at court at a Maid of Honour to Anne de France,Duchess de Bourbon and Regent of France.
Following her marriage she served Queen Claude as a lady-in-waiting and after her death she served the King's powerful mother,Louise de Savoie.
Louise died in 1531 and Diane served the new queen,Eleanor of Austria as lady-in-waiting before becoming the mistress of the future Henri II.
In July 1559,Henri's widow,Queen Catherine now in power banished Diane from Court and exiled her to the Château'd Anet where she died in 1566.

Diane de Poitiers duchesse de Valentinois (1499-1566)

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]

It's worth noting that in Sweden a commoner (ofrälse) is anyone that isn't part of the nobility (frälset or adel) or the Royal family.

That is the same in the Benelux Countries:

- individuals belonging to the Royal House (which has a legal definition and is not the same as the royal family);

- individuals belonging to the Nobility;

- and all other individuals.


Belonging to the Nobility has no any privilege other than that the use of noble titles/surnames and coats of arms are defined and protected by law.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That is the same in the Benelux Countries:

- individuals belonging to the Royal House (which has a legal definition and is not the same as the royal family);

- individuals belonging to the Nobility;

- and all other individuals.

Belonging to the Nobility has no any privilege other than that the use of noble titles/surnames and coats of arms are defined and protected by law.

Membership of the Royal House (but not the Royal Family) of the Netherlands is defined by act of parliament. Membership of the Grand-Ducal House and Grand-Ducal Family of Luxembourg is defined by house law. There is no legal definition of the Royal Family or House of Belgium other than the definition used in the Penal Code, which seems outdated.

In Belgium and the Netherlands, the titles of the Royal Family are defined by law as titles of nobility (albeit ones governed by special legislation instead of the standard nobiliary law), so I suppose the titled members of those families technically belong to the Nobility as well. I am not sure about Luxembourg.

Correction: in the meantime Ottoline Antoinette Gaarlandt - Van Voorst van Beesd has offered her resignation as hofdame because of her advanced age (75 years) and the King has not yet appointed a new lady.

This hofdame was special as it was the one who guided a certain Ms Máxima Zorreguieta Cerruti into royal life since 2001. Picture: https://www.imago-images.de/bild/st/0082943700/w.jpg

Thanks. Just a small correction: In accordance with Argentinean custom, Ms Máxima Zorreguieta carried only the name of her father before her marriage.
See sources: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...ima-the-zorreguietas-5389-16.html#post2372584

 

[An Ard Ri]

Louise de Montmorency was the first wife of French Admiral ,Gaspard I de Coligny.

Louise served as the Première dame d'honneur to Eleanor of Austria from 1530 to 1535.Louise came from a ultra Catholic noble house but later becamea Calvinist before her death in 1547.

Another French Lady in Waiting was Françoise de Rohan

Françoise de Rohan was the daughter of Isabeau d’Albret,Viscount de Rohan (sister of Henri II of Navarre) and a cousin of Jeanne d'Albret,queen of Navarre.
Like her mother and cousin ,Francoise became a Calvinist and had served as a lady in waiting to Catherine de Médicis.
Despite several attempts by queen Catherine to recant she refused.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Currently Queen Silvia has 2 ladies in waiting, Countess von Schwerin and Mrs Bredelius rotating 2 weeks each... I have also seen one of her former ladies in waiting Mrs Törneman still attending her occassionally so she’s probably an extra lady in waiting...

The Household of The Crown Princess mirrors that of her father and not that of her mother... She has opted to not have any ladies in waiting... She have 12 rotating Equerries in Waiting from the Armed Forces, just like The King, who is on duty one month each, and her own Court Marshal and a Private Secretary who supports her in her every day work...
I can imagine this will be the case after her accession too... The Mistress of the Robes may be kept for stately ceremonial functions and to advice newer members of the Royal Family and of the Royal Court (just like Baroness von Blixen Finecke does today) but apart from that i don’t think the ladies in waiting will be kept after Queen Silvia...

Prince Daniel shares household with his wife... He likely won’t recive his own household until the accession.

Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia belongs to The King’s household and Princess Madeleine belongs to The Queen’s household.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

On ladies in waiting / hofdames conversation. It is interesting to note that neither The Duchess of Cornwall or the Duchess of Cambridge currently have any ladies in waiting of their own even though the former Princess of Wales did, as so the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. I wonder what this means for the future of the lady in waiting role.

Camilla and Catherine have a Private Secretary and a couple of Deputy Private Secretaries who supports them and follows them around... Only time will tell if that’s the future in the next reign’s or not...

 

[An Ard Ri]

Anne d'Arpajon, Comtesse de Noailles was a French noble and the dame d'honneur to 2 Queens of France, Marie Leszczyńska and Marie Antoinette.
Known as "Madame Etiquette" for her stringent rules on court etiquette ,the Countess stayed in France during the Revolution and was later arrested along with her husband and other family members
On the 27th of June 1794,the Count/Countess, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law and niece were all sent to the guillotine.

+ Anne de Noailles (1729–1794)
+ Philippe de Noailles, Comte de Noailles (1715-1794)
+Anne Jeanne Baptiste de Noailles (1758–1794)
+Henriette Anne Louise d'Aguesseau (1737-1794)
+ Catherine de Cossé (1724-1794)

Anne,Comtesse de Noailles

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Will King Charles III keep his valet or will he acquire a new valet?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Another French lady in waiting who rose the ranks was Anne de Pisseleu d'Heilly who arrived at the French Court as a lady in awaiting to Marie de Luxembourg, Countess of Saint-Pol and Soissons and then to the king's mother Louise de Savoie.
Anne went onto becoming the chief mistress of Francis I of Franceand he made her Duchess d'Étampes but she fell foul of Diane de Poitiers who had her banished after the king died!

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Marie Sophie von Clausewitz (Countess Marie Sophie von Bruhl) (1779-1836) was a lady in waiting to Queen Dowager Frederika Louisa of Hesse-Darmstadt, Princess Charlotte of Prussia, and Princess Augusta of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Empress Alexandra of Russia's 1917 Christmas letter to her lady in waiting Sophie Buxhoeveden

 

[An Ard Ri]

Baroness Buxdoeveden was refused permission to join the Imperial Family at the Ipatiev house and ended her days in England in 1956

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Baroness Buxdoeveden was refused permission to join the Imperial Family at the Ipatiev house and ended her days in England in 1956

I think was it her or another of the ladies who asked if she could take the children away, but that was refused.

 

[Blog Real]

Do Queen Sonja and Princess Mette-Marit have ladies-in-waiting?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Do Queen Sonja and Princess Mette-Marit have ladies-in-waiting?

I don't believe so and can't recall seeing any with Queen Sonja.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Jacqueline de Longwy, Countess of Bar-sur-Seine was Mistress of the Robes to Catherine de Médicis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_de_Longwy

Philippes de Montespedon,Princess La Roche-sur-Yon took over that role until her death in 1578.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippes_de_Montespedon

Laure-Auguste de Fitz-James, Princess de Chimay was Mistress of the Robes to Queen Marie Antoinette from 1770 to 1791.
The Princess fled France in 1791 to the Austrian Netherlands and later Germany at the start of the Terror.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laure-Auguste_de_Fitz-James,_Princess_de_Chimay

Geneviève de Gramont, Countess of Ossun took over that role but went to the guillotine in July 1794.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneviève_de_Gramont

Louise Antoinette Lannes, Duchess of Montebello was Mistress of the Robes to Empress Marie Louise of France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Antoinette_Lannes,_Duchess_of_Montebello

 

[An Ard Ri]

Jane Dormer was a Lady in waiting and personal friend of Mary I of England and later married the 1st Duke of Feria and settled in Spain after the death of the queen in 1559.
The duchess was devout Roman Catholic and gave shelter to many exiled English Catholics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Dormer

Another of Queen Mary's ladies was Susan Clarencieux who also emigrated to Spain with Jane Dormer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Clarencieux

Margaret Harington another of Queen Mary's ladies too left England in 1559 for Spain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Harington

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The harsh treatment of Queen Elizabeth I's lady in waiting Lady Mary Dudley

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Do Queen Sonja and Princess Mette-Marit have ladies-in-waiting?

No. Queen Sonja did have 3 Ladies in Waiting as Crown Princess and in her early years as Queen but in the late 1990:s they reformed the Royal Household and the role of the ladies in waiting was abolished.

Only Princess Astrid choosed to keep her lady in waiting.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The harsh treatment of Queen Elizabeth I's lady in waiting Lady Mary Dudley

Lady Mary Dudley and her Sir Henry Sidney resided in Ireland from 1556 under Queen Mary as Sir Henry accompanied the Lord Deputy of Ireland .
Queen Mary was also a godmother godmother to their daughter Mary Margaret Sidney.
The Couple returned to England in 1559 under Queen Elizabeth.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Elizabeth of Denton was one of Queen Elizabeth of York's ladies at Court.
Anne Hastings, daughter of Sir William Hastings, married to George Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury was a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Elizabeth of Denton was one of Queen Elizabeth of York's ladies at Court.
Anne Hastings, daughter of Sir William Hastings, married to George Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury was a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon.

Lady Anne Talbot, Countess of Shrewsbury died in 1520 and had served as a lady-in-waiting to Katherine of Aragon.
Her remains are buried beside her husband and his first wife at Sheffield Cathedral (formerly Church of St. Peter and St. Paul).https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Anne_Hastings_Portrait.jpg

 

[Blog Real]

"Billed Bladet" published an article about Henriette Obel, the lady-in-waiting of Queen Margrethe II.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...d-paa-cayx-det-skal-du-vide-om-henriette-obel