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#41
10-02-2005, 12:58 AM
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Giiven this atmosphere, the RF was trying to portray itself as completely British. Thus the decision was made because it was felt that it was the best thing to do. If the Battenbergs and the other German princelings wanted to live in Britain, then they had to become British subjects and forgo the titles of the enemy (titles which would have no validity after 1918 anyway). Simple. Quote:
Some do and some don't. These are titles of pretension and no one is obliged to address them as such or accord them the style of HRH/HSH etc. In fact, it is insulting to the legitimate governments of these nations to do so (I'm thinking of the Greek situation in particular). Those who do use their former titles, do it for social and/or historical reasons only. The titles are not recognized legally (they are actually illegal in Germany), and this is gotten around by using the ones title as ones last name (Austria has a much stricter policy with regards to titles). Quote:
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Finally, in Britain, being a member of the British nobility was far more noteworthy than a minor princeling of a minor, morganaut branch of a minor German House. (During Queen Victoria's time even the more senior German prinelings were referred to disdainfully in England as 'German beggers'). Mountbatten would not had the opportunities he had if had remained a pretend Prince Louis of Battenberg. And, FYI, the Mountbattens did use their Battenberg title on occassion for social reasons when in Germany. Last edited by Sean.~; 10-02-2005 at 02:24 AM. 
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#42
10-02-2005, 04:04 AM
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Two Royal old-timers keeping the over-ambitious parvenu in his place? :)
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#43
10-02-2005, 02:09 PM
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. Last edited by Warren; 10-03-2005 at 03:11 AM. Reason: removed Sean's quoted post to save space
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#44
10-02-2005, 02:11 PM
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He always was a little full of himself..but it makes for good reading about him..
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#45
10-02-2005, 02:12 PM
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1. This is a summary of the main elements of British titles. The system is complex and I haven’t considered every possible permutation, only the most common. 2. Most people with titles and honours show their correct style at the top of any correspondence with us so you can’t normally go wrong by following them. 3. There are three main groups of titles: · Peerage titles · Baronetcies · Knighthoods. 4. The first two groups are hereditary titles (except for life peerages) which mean that they can be passed on to the next generation, usually in the male line. It’s now very rare for any hereditary peerages or baronetcies to be created. Life peerages and knighthoods are created on a regular basis and these titles die with their holders. 5. A general principle of British titles is that if a woman without a title marries a man with one, she will assume his title. So Miss Jane Smith marries the Duke of Bristol and becomes the Duchess of Bristol. However, if a man without a title marries a woman with one, he will not assume her title. So Mr John Smith marries the Countess of Cardiff but remains plain Mr Smith. Peerage titles Although people talk about ‘the peerage’, there are technically five peerages. They are the peerages of: · England · Scotland · Ireland (i.e. before the creation of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) · Great Britain · United Kingdom With a few exceptions, all peerages created since 1801 have been peerages of the United Kingdom. Grades of Title There are five grades or ‘degrees’ of the peerage. They are in descending order of seniority: Male Form & Female Form: 1 Duke, Duchess 2 Marquess (or Marquis), Marchioness 3 Earl, Countess 4 Viscount, Viscountess 5 Baron, Baroness Note: All present day life peers have the rank of Baron or Baroness. Peers v Courtesy Peers 1. There are two sorts of peer. The actual holder of the title (who until recently was entitled to sit in the House of Lords in most cases) and a ‘courtesy peer’. The eldest or only son of a duke, marquess, earl or viscount is known by courtesy by one of his father’s more junior titles, assuming he has one. 2. To understand this, you need to know that most peers who are dukes, marquesses, earls or viscounts will have a junior peerage title. For example, the Duke of Bedford also has the junior titles of Marquess of Tavistock and Baron Howland. The Duke’s son is known by courtesy as Marquess of Tavistock, or informally as Lord Tavistock. The Duke’s grandson is known by courtesy as Baron Howland, or informally as Lord Howland. But neither the Marquess nor the Baron has ever been entitled to sit in the House of Leeds because they are courtesy peers, as opposed to the Duke who is a ‘proper’ peer. When the Duke dies, his son will become the next Duke of Bedford and his grandson the next (courtesy) Marquess of Tavistock. 3. In the case of the Marquess of Bath, the next most junior title is Viscount Weymouth. So the Marquess’s eldest son is styled by courtesy Viscount Weymouth. Before the reform of the House of Lords in 1999, the Marquess would have been entitled to sit in the House of Lords. 4. The distinction between a peer and a courtesy peer is reflected in the more formal 4way in which you write to the former. Peers, as opposed to courtesy peers, are entitled to the following prefixes before their titles: 5. Other than a Duke, you may not know if, say, the Earl you are writing to is a peer in his own right (and so entitled to the Rt Hon prefix) or is a courtesy peer, in which case he isn’t. So the simplest thing is not to use the prefixes unless they have made their preferences known in correspondence with the Bank. 6. Another way of simplifying matters is to bear in mind that all peers and courtesy peers from the rank of Marquess to Baron can be correctly addressed as Lord XYZ. So if writing to the Marquess of Abergavenny, you can simply address the letter to Lord Abergavenny, and start the letter with Dear Lord Abergavenny, yours sincerely etc. Bear in mind that it’s always wrong to say ‘Dear’ followed by Most Hon, Rt Hon, Hon etc. So you would never write saying Dear Rt Hon Lord Howe – it would just be Dear Lord Howe – although it would be correct to address a letter to Rt Hon Lord Howe, 1 Acacia Avenue etc. 7. There are ultra formal styles for starting and ending letters to peers but they are not used today very often in routine correspondence. . Last edited by Warren; 10-03-2005 at 03:20 AM. Reason: compressed
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#46
10-02-2005, 02:55 PM
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I find it quite amusing that there are many HSH's are more wealthy than the HRH's. I do notice that the German Princely and Royal Houses mix quite well socially.
__________________
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" "Hate stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all sins"
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#47
10-02-2005, 04:32 PM
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Well, if you know that already, one would assume you would understand why the Battenbergs had to rennounce their German titles. However, it may be just me, but you don't seem to get it. Quote:
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Again, as I stated previously, it depends on the situation. Some care and some don't. I found your previous statement (in your last post) of "Who cares" as rather nonchalant, and was merely pointing out that legitimate governments and the citizens of these places who often suffered terribly under some of these regimes might "care". Moreover, as stated above, in Germany things are a little different for historical reasons than say in a country like Greece. Regardless, the original discussion was about the Battenbergs. *They* lived in Britain and the British people certainly *did* care whether they used their German titles or not. That's why *they* had to renounce, and that's the whole point of this discussion. Quote:
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No one is claiming that you don't know history or that you are uneducated. Rather, my observation and comment was based on your erroneous understanding of titles, styles, and who qualified as royalty. Once again, Highness, Serene Highness, Imperial Highness, etc. are not titles. They are styles. And many noble families who are not royal bore -- and continue to bear (in Belgium, for example) -- different variations of Highness. Also, contrary to your previous claim, Serene Highness is not necessarily "low" on the pecking order. In some cases it ranked/ranks above Royal Highness -- it all depends on the House and the given situation. It's not a big deal, though. We're all here to learn and share information and knowledge. I wastrying to be helpful by explaining the difference. Quote:
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No, that is incorrect. They are not royal, (although many Americans erroneously think otherwise) Any scholar on the subject will tell you so. Monaco is a Principallity,not a Kingdom. Thus the Grimaldis are a Sovereign Princely family, with the style of Serene Highness (which in France was higher than a simple Highness). It has nothing to do with what QE thinks -- it is what it is (as per its protection treaties dating back to the 17th century). The only member who can claim to be "royal" is Princess Caroline via her marriage to Hanover, and even that is a nebulous claim since Hanover no longer exists as a separate entitity. Quote:
Some members of former Houses were "innocent" and some were not (for instance, many were actively involved with the Nazis). Regardless, the individuals being discussed were not displaced. By making such erroneous statements I'm afraid you're confusing history. Rather than being displaced, the Battenbergs lived in Britain, and had their lives there well before the war. In fact, Mounbatten's father was First Sea Lord in the British Navy, but was forced to resign because of his German background. By holding on to their pretend titles their loyalty would be (and was) questioned. This, in turn, would have compromised the stability of the monarchy, which did not want to be viewed as German for obvious reasons. In short, if one really knows and understands the history and psychology of the time, then one would be cognizant of the fact that, at the time, it was important for them to renounce their German titles (or at least why it was felt that it was important). If they wanted to hold on to their German titles they could have gone back to Hesse. They chose not to. Quote:
We do not define. The rules of the game are already well established. And in those countries that the monarchy no longer exists, there is technically no more royalty or nobility unless certain individuals or families are recognized as such by the legitimate regime. Quote:
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Also, can you please try to use the quote system when responding to messages? It makes them easier to read and responding to. Thanks. Last edited by Sean.~; 10-02-2005 at 08:01 PM.
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#48
10-02-2005, 04:51 PM
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Sean:
I love your post. You are quite knowledgable, and when you give info and/or correct, you always do it in a mannerly way. You are very much a gentleman.
__________________
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" "Hate stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all sins"
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#49
10-02-2005, 04:54 PM
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#50
10-02-2005, 05:18 PM
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 Sorry I can't help chuckling at that example considering what a nuisance and a embarrassment the senior Prince of Hanover is to, not only the German government, but the whole Germany...
__________________
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#51
10-02-2005, 07:58 PM
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#52
10-02-2005, 08:02 PM
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I would like to believe that one day he will learn how to behave, but deep down, I don't believe so.
__________________
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" "Hate stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all sins"
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#53
10-02-2005, 08:03 PM
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#54
10-02-2005, 08:17 PM
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I may not agree with your postings, but I try not to respond in a superior manner with the attitude you are wrong and I am right. If I have, I apologize, as that is not the meaning I intend my posts to be viewed as. Not everything about royalty is black and white, packed away in neat little packages. :) As we have seen in many countries, Germany, Japan, Russia, Greece etc., the recognition of titles and such may not be by their governments, but the families are still passing them down generation to generation and I think that is wonderful to ensure and instill the names and titles going down the line. No one is being hurt in the process. I was never erroneous in my postings on here in any sense. None of us, I assume are real royals or aristocrats on here. :) I know I am not. Just because the British peerage system is the one most well known, does not make the socially superior one. Again, these families can call themselves whatever they wish too, legal and official or not. If they want to use Princess of Hanover or Prussia or whatever rather than adding them as a last name such as Von Hapsburg, I dot believe anyone will protest. Whether the country is now a republic or monarchy or communist, or whatever does not matter in the sense if the families wish their titles to pass generation to generation, they probably do not care if they are recognized officially and legally by the governments in the former countries they once ruled. I am talking about today's world, not the one of 1914-1917. I know what was going on at the time and understand why these changes happened. That is not in question here. My whole point is to these families. They can use whatever titles they want regardless if governments recognized them today or not. I hardly think any government in Europe will care too much given there are so many real problems to deal with in today's world. :) . Last edited by Warren; 10-03-2005 at 03:30 AM. Reason: edited quoted extract
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#55
10-03-2005, 03:48 AM
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We should be wary of reading implications into the style of writing of members. Most often the "implication" is not intended. Everyone has their own views on the "legitimacy" or legality of the present-day use of German titles and styles. Formally, they have been abolished; in the real world they are still used. For example we refer to Princess Bendikte's husband as HSH Richard, 6th Fürst zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, and not Mr Richard S-W-B. Everyone has something to contribute and information to share; that is why we participate in these Forums. We approach subjects from different angles and sometimes we get things wrong and someone corrects us. This is par for the course and should be accepted with good grace. Other things are open to interpretation or have grey areas. In relation to the Germanic Houses the whole subject of styles, titles and precedence is a very complex area, and most of it goes back to the days of the Holy Roman Empire. Plenty of others have struggled to unders |
